Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

Hawk said:

The E-V13 were present in La Tene Celts, Pannonians (we already have some samples from them and one is E-V13), Thracians heavily and very likely the Dardanians, the E-V13 in Naissus isn't exactly like the Kapitan Andreevo E-V13 samples, in fact he looks close to HRV_IA samples. They were male clans and were taking women wherever they settled down.

As for Mycenae, we all agreed E-V13 will not be there, it's rather after the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age turbulences we expect to find. 1 Ancient Macedonian site has already 1 E-V13, 2 E-V13 brothers appeared in Ancient Greek Byzantine city of Nicaea.

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Oroku Saki said:

Albanian language derives from R-Z2103, Central Balkan EBA and MBA locals. Ulanci carried R-CTS7556, and Ulanci group had some direct parallels to Paracin and Brnjica groups. It's obvious Central Balkans became a refugium for R-Z2103 already based on N.Macedonian results.

The strongest Albanian cluster is R-Z2705, it is several times more numerous than any other Late Antiquity/Early Medieval cluster in Albanians. Lumping E-V13 and J-L283 clusters with TMRCA of 3000-4000 years together is ridiculous, as these could have had completely different histories.

Southern Albania also was run by Z2103, it was the Brygian territory, and the Matt painted pottery, which also influenced Ulanci originates there.

LBA saw arrival of some Gava people (before they would form the Psenicevo and related cultures in EIA), then the Psenicevo itself. Latest was the arrival of Illyrians from the West, who have nothing to do with the original Dardanians.
Basically Illyrians are as Dardanian as British are derived of the Bretons. But they formed the ruling class and according to reports even ruled the indigenous Dardanians with an iron fist.

The area also sees remnants of non-Illyrian, non-Thracian speakers surviving even in 2nd century AD. These may or may not have been related to Albanians, but there were obviously various survivors in the Central Balkans.

There is a small chance Albanian derives of some indigenous remnants in Albania, but this is made almost impossible by the linguistic and historical arguments (Matzinger etc.).

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Oroku Saki said:

Albanian language derives from R-Z2103, Central Balkan EBA and MBA locals. Ulanci carried R-CTS7556, and Ulanci group had some direct parallels to Paracin and Brnjica groups. It's obvious Central Balkans became a refugium for R-Z2103 already based on N.Macedonian results.

The strongest Albanian cluster is R-Z2705, it is several times more numerous than any other Late Antiquity/Early Medieval cluster in Albanians. Lumping E-V13 and J-L283 clusters with TMRCA of 3000-4000 years together is ridiculous, as these could have had completely different histories.

Southern Albania also was run by Z2103, it was the Brygian territory, and the Matt painted pottery, which also influenced Ulanci originates there.

LBA saw arrival of some Gava people (before they would form the Psenicevo and related cultures in EIA), then the Psenicevo itself. Latest was the arrival of Illyrians from the West, who have nothing to do with the original Dardanians.
Basically Illyrians are as Dardanian as British are derived of the Bretons. But they formed the ruling class and according to reports even ruled the indigenous Dardanians with an iron fist.

The area also sees remnants of non-Illyrian, non-Thracian speakers surviving even in 2nd century AD. These may or may not have been related to Albanians, but there were obviously various survivors in the Central Balkans.

There is a small chance Albanian derives of some indigenous remnants in Albania, but this is made almost impossible by the linguistic and historical arguments (Matzinger etc.).

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Excine said:

R-CTS1450 and J-L283 are already together in Illyrian Cinamak in the IA. R-M69 (likely R-PF7562) was in EBA Albania. The precursor of Albanian was brought directly via Yamnaya migrations in the Balkans and its closest language is Messapic which so far is J-L283 and we will definitely get R-PF7562 and/or R-Z2103 in them. For such haplogroups the relation to Albanian is pretty much a closed deal and unfortunately because just one Albanian site was investigated we don't know anything about E-V13, but I strongly believe that we'll find among Illyrians in Albania and Dardania. If it was among them in Croatia since the Iron Age, it must be in higher percentages in the south.

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mount123 said:

Nope not at all, since wether it is 638+ clades or Y15058+ does not matter since they are all J2b-L283 and found within the same archeological context. The pathway of J2b-L283 (Illyrians) is pretty clear and its core is very much mapped out already.

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Excine said:

For such haplogroups the relation to Albanian is pretty much a closed deal and unfortunately because just one Albanian site was investigated we don't know anything about E-V13, but I strongly believe that we'll find among Illyrians in Albania and Dardania. If it was among them in Croatia since the Iron Age, it must be in higher percentages in the south.

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Excine said:

If it was among them in Croatia since the Iron Age, it must be in higher percentages in the south.

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Oroku Saki said:

Albanian language derives from R-Z2103, Central Balkan EBA and MBA locals. Ulanci carried R-CTS7556, and Ulanci group had some direct parallels to Paracin and Brnjica groups. It's obvious Central Balkans became a refugium for R-Z2103 already based on N.Macedonian results.

The strongest Albanian cluster is R-Z2705, it is several times more numerous than any other Late Antiquity/Early Medieval cluster in Albanians. Lumping E-V13 and J-L283 clusters with TMRCA of 3000-4000 years together is ridiculous, as these could have had completely different histories.

Southern Albania also was run by Z2103, it was the Brygian territory, and the Matt painted pottery, which also influenced Ulanci originates there.

LBA saw arrival of some Gava people (before they would form the Psenicevo and related cultures in EIA), then the Psenicevo itself. Latest was the arrival of Illyrians from the West, who have nothing to do with the original Dardanians.
Basically Illyrians are as Dardanian as British are derived of the Bretons. But they formed the ruling class and according to reports even ruled the indigenous Dardanians with an iron fist.

The area also sees remnants of non-Illyrian, non-Thracian speakers surviving even in 2nd century AD. These may or may not have been related to Albanians, but there were obviously various survivors in the Central Balkans.

There is a small chance Albanian derives of some indigenous remnants in Albania, but this is made almost impossible by the linguistic and historical arguments (Matzinger etc.).

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Oroku Saki said:

Of course, I refer here to the relevance of question of Early proto-Albanians in Late Antiquity/Early medieval times.

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blevins13 said:

As long as there is a connection between Albanian and Messapic nothing is impossible.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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Excine said:

The bulk of the individuals from Çinamak are from the 1st millennium BCE and have a lower 16±2% EHG ancestry on average. We identify four post-medieval individuals from Barç who stand out in having substantial levels of both Caucasus- and Levant-related ancestry in contrast to all other samples from the country. In Principal Component Analysis (PCA) these individuals superficially resemble samples from the South Caucasus (Armenia) also included in our study. However, the analysis of outliers in (6) suggests the presence of East Asian ancestry in these outlier individuals, suggesting that they had ancestry from the east which could have been mediated e.g., by Turkic ancestors either via Anatolia or the Balkans which had been recipients of such ancestry of Turkic nomads during medieval times. Other than these outliers, the population of Albania from the Middle Bronze Age to the post-medieval period appears to be largely made up of the same components in similar proportions: Anatolian Neolithic (~1/2), CHG (~1/5-1/4), and EHG (~10-15%) ancestry.

All the above confirm the connection between Albanian and Messapic via R-PF7562 and/or Z2103 and J-L283. If some people here want to pretend that the Albanian-Messapic connection doesn't involve any of these haplogroups, they can do so but it's totally irrational.

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Johane Derite said:

With regard to EV13, interesting also to see this unexpected development of the EEF situation.

Aspar on anthrogenica:

"With this chronology you can hardly dismiss E-V13 as a local development.

And I will say again, if there was really some massive migration in the EIA that hit Thrace this should have been observed in the models but that's not the case!
Riverman tried to minimize this comparing it with the Iberia Bell Beakers but this is truly not comparable. Among the Iberian Bell Beakers there can be distinguished two groups, one which plots with the earlier Neolithic population and one which shifts from it in a direction of other Beakers in Europe and Corded Ware. This is easily checkable on Vahaduo Global G25 views.


I've changed radically my view and no longer believe E-V13 arrived in the transitional period. It's hidden somewhere in the eastern Balkans in a EEF rich population and future sampling of the region, especially in the MBA will yield some results, I'm very confident about it.


As for how V13 is so wide spread today, I believe it's because of the mingling of the Thracian populations with some Scythian and Cimmerian groups(this is especially important for those V13 in Asia), and especially because the incorporation of the former into the Roman ranks(this is especially important for Europe). Some minor involvement of groups like Celts and later Germanics and Slavs could have also helped it's spread but the first two are the most important factors!"

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Hawk said:

I see 2 problems with this, no matter the autosomal which i realized before Aspar that it keeps preferring Eastern_Balkans Neolithic a lot but also Pannonian_Carpathian Neolithic.

The first problem is that we do have ancient samples from Neolithic/Chalcolithic Bulgaria, unless it was not still sampled. But, i find it quite unlikely a Neolithic population in Bulgaria like that to rise in prominence. As Riverman always put it, which i 100% agree, there must be a strong reason why a certain haplogroup rises in prominence during a certain timeline.

2.

That site, Kapitan Andreevo is 100% classified as Psenicevo Culture and this people were not a continiuation of Chalcolithic or Bronze Age Bulgarians. Psenicevo Culture is known to have been derived from Dubovac Zuto Brdo which was a cousin culture of Vatin Culture and them together were in the same cultural complex as Gava/Ottomany: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page26?p=656119&viewfull=1#post656119

Dubovac Zuto Brdo were one of the Bronze Age Cultures which had the most Neolithic features from all (no matter if they had some Transdanubian admixture from Encrusted Pottery People, they might have been some refugees running away from Hugelgraber shepherd-warriors), like the figures of Starcevo/Vinca water birds.

In the relation of the above two problems it's impossible to explain the E-V13-rich populations in Moesians and further north in Southern Pannonia. There was no such a movement (south to north) recorded archaeologically, it was completely the opposite. One thing to note that in Bronze Age the cline of North to South was not so evident and consistent as today. Most of Neolithic populations that survived in Bronze Age survived among Tell Cultures of Pannonia/Carpathian Basin, in fact they were doing quite good until the Hugelgraber/Tumulus warriors from Southern Bavaria crossed the Alps in Carpathian Basin and destroyed their strongholds during Late Middle Bronze Age (1500 B.C).

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Excine said:

The bulk of the individuals from Çinamak are from the 1st millennium BCE and have a lower 16±2% EHG ancestry on average. We identify four post-medieval individuals from Barç who stand out in having substantial levels of both Caucasus- and Levant-related ancestry in contrast to all other samples from the country. In Principal Component Analysis (PCA) these individuals superficially resemble samples from the South Caucasus (Armenia) also included in our study. However, the analysis of outliers in (6) suggests the presence of East Asian ancestry in these outlier individuals, suggesting that they had ancestry from the east which could have been mediated e.g., by Turkic ancestors either via Anatolia or the Balkans which had been recipients of such ancestry of Turkic nomads during medieval times. Other than these outliers, the population of Albania from the Middle Bronze Age to the post-medieval period appears to be largely made up of the same components in similar proportions: Anatolian Neolithic (~1/2), CHG (~1/5-1/4), and EHG (~10-15%) ancestry.

All the above confirm the connection between Albanian and Messapic via R-PF7562 and/or Z2103 and J-L283. If some people here want to pretend that the Albanian-Messapic connection doesn't involve any of these haplogroups, they can do so but it's totally irrational.

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Oroku Saki said:

Albanian language derives from R-Z2103, Central Balkan EBA and MBA locals. Ulanci carried R-CTS7556, and Ulanci group had some direct parallels to Paracin and Brnjica groups. It's obvious Central Balkans became a refugium for R-Z2103 already based on N.Macedonian results.

The strongest Albanian cluster is R-Z2705, it is several times more numerous than any other Late Antiquity/Early Medieval cluster in Albanians. Lumping E-V13 and J-L283 clusters with TMRCA of 3000-4000 years together is ridiculous, as these could have had completely different histories.

Southern Albania also was run by Z2103, it was the Brygian territory, and the Matt painted pottery, which also influenced Ulanci originates there.

LBA saw arrival of some Gava people (before they would form the Psenicevo and related cultures in EIA), then the Psenicevo itself. Latest was the arrival of Illyrians from the West, who have nothing to do with the original Dardanians.
Basically Illyrians are as Dardanian as British are derived of the Bretons. But they formed the ruling class and according to reports even ruled the indigenous Dardanians with an iron fist.

The area also sees remnants of non-Illyrian, non-Thracian speakers surviving even in 2nd century AD. These may or may not have been related to Albanians, but there were obviously various survivors in the Central Balkans.

There is a small chance Albanian derives of some indigenous remnants in Albania, but this is made almost impossible by the linguistic and historical arguments (Matzinger etc.).

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Stipcevic, Iliri, p. 30 and n.; Mirdita, Studime dardane, pp. 7-46; Papazoglu, Central Balkan Tribes, pp. 210-69. As Papazoglu notes, most ancient sources classify Dardanians as Illyrians. Her reasons for rejecting this identification in a later essay, 'Les Royaumes', are obscure. There were Thracian names in the eastern strip of Dardania, but Illyrian names dominated the rest; Katicic has shown that these belong with two other Illyrian 'onomastic provinces' (see his summary in Ancient Languages, pp. 179-81, and the evidence in Papazoglu, 'Dardanska onomastika').

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Many city names were composed of an initial lexical element affixed to -dava, -daua, -deva, -deba, -daba, or -dova, which meant "city" or "town" Endings on more southern regions are exclusively -bria ("town, city"), -disza, -diza, -dizos ("fortress, walled settlement"), -para, -paron, -pera, -phara ("town, village"). Strabo translated -bria as polis, but that may not be accurate.^[4] Thracian -disza, -diza, and -dizos are derived from Proto-Indo-European *dheigh-, "to knead clay", hence to "make bricks", "build walls", "wall", "walls", and so on. These Thracian lexical items show a satemization of PIE *gh-. Cognates include Ancient Greek teichos ("wall, fort, fortified town", as in the town of Didymoteicho) and Avestan da?za ("wall").
It is suggested that the "dava" endings are from the Dacian language, while the rest from the Thracian language. However "dava" towns can be found as south as Sandanski and Plovdiv. Some "dava" toponyms contain the same linguistic features as "diza" toponyms, e.g. Pirodiza and Pirodava. The first written mention of the name "Dacians" is in Roman sources. Strabo specified that the Daci are the Getae, identified as a Thracian tribe. The Dacians, Getae and their kings were always considered as Thracians by the ancients (Dio Cassius, Trogus Pompeius, Appian, Strabo, Herodotus and Pliny the Elder) and were said to speak the same language. The Dacian language is considered a variety of the Thracian language.^[5] Such lexical differentiation -dava vs. para, would be hardly enough evidence to separate Dacian from Thracian, thus they are classified as dialects.^[6] It is also possible that '-dava' and '-bria' mean two different things in the same language, rather than meaning the same thing in two different languages. Thus bria could have been used for urbanized settlements, similar in scale and design to those of the "civilised" peoples like Greeks and Romans, whereas '-dava' could mean a settlement which is rural, being situated in the steppe-like part of the Thracian lands.

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Whether the Dardanians were an Illyrian or a Thracian people has been much debated and one view suggests that the area was originally populated with Thracians who then exposed to direct contact with Illyrians over a long period. [..] The meaning of this state of affairs has been variously interpreted, ranging from notions of Thracianization' (in part) of an existing Illyrian population to the precise opposite. In favour of the latter may be the close correspondence of Illyrian names in Dardania with those of the southern 'real' lllyrians to their west, including the names of Dardanian rulers, Longarus, Bato, Monunius and Etuta, and those on later epitaphs, Epicadus, Scerviaedus, Tuta, Times and Cinna.

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In a series of excavations in 1970–73, an Iron Agetumuli necropolis was found in the location of the site.^[2] It belongs to the Drin regional variation of the IllyrianGlasinac-Mati culture.^[3][4] Three of the sixteen burial mounds of the necropolis were excavated at the time. The largest mound is more than 5 metres (16 ft) in height and 40 metres (130 ft) in diameter.^[5] It contains 38 graves that must have belonged to a clan who used the tumulus for a period of several centuries. The graves date from sixth to the second century BCE.^[5]

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Romajë is situated in the transboundary Has region of Albania and present-day Kosovo

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The materials found in the graves included iron weapons, a horse harness, amber and glass beads, local and imported pottery, and ritualistic items. Graves from the sixth and fifth centuries BCE contain long iron bars that were placed in the tombs are a means of payment to the afterlife. They indicate that the tribe of the Dardani had developed a concept about the afterlife as shown later in other archaeological materials such as the votive monument of Smirë.^[6] The weapons included double-edged axes (Labrys), which might have been used in a ritualistic manner related to sun worship that was prevalent in the northern Illyrian tribes.^[7] Ancient Greek imports (pottery, weapons) at this period mark the beginning of more intense contact of the Dardani with the Mediterranean centers of antiquity. These burial materials attest to the fact that social differentiation had begun in Dardania and that they had a local elite class who could invest in luxury imports.

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The tribe is mentioned by Ancient Greek author Strabo in his Geographica as Γαλάβριοι Galabrioi. The tribal name Galabri/Galabrioi has been connected to the Messapic name Calabri/Calabrioi in Apulia (south-eastern Italy).

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The tribe is mentioned by Ancient Greek author Strabo in his Geographica as Θουνᾶται Thunatai. The tribal name Thunatae/Thunatai has been connected to the Messapic name Daunioi/Daunii in Apulia (south-eastern Italy)

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According to Strabo the Thunatae were a Dardanian tribe who bordered with the Thracian Maedi in the east.^[3][2]
It has been suggested that the Thunatae may have been a Thracian people or probably strongly influenced by the neighbouring Thracians.^[2][4] However Strabo explicitly considers the Thunatae as a Dardanian people, also separating them from the Thracian tribe Maedi, hence from the Thracians.^[3] Strabo's account provides evidence that in their eastern territory the Dardanians bordered the Thracians.^[3]

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