With which Y DNA was the proto caucausoid/mongoloid?

Kristiina said:
... that the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.
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But still it can not be called *conclusive* evidence. The upper jaw, where tell tale signs of sinodonty can be found, is missing. No mentioning of molars with two rather than three roots.

But let us, for the sake of the argument, hold that Afontova and Listvenka have a Asian rather than European affiliation. And let us base that on this dental record. I think Listvenka's age is slightly younger than AG-2. Mal'ta, which is almost twice as old, has European teeth. According to the same logic the *original* ANE had a late Pleistocene European, rather than Asian affiliation.

That would still place haplogroup R* in a West-Eurasian population.

It will be interesting to see Ust-Ishim.
 
epoch said:
That would still place haplogroup R* in a West-Eurasian population.

.
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Where is your proof that haplogroup R is west-Eurasian, when its documented that R's founding Haplogroup P is South-east Asian ?

The only proven west-eurasian haplogroups that came out of K haplogroup are I, J, T, L, N and O ..............P is not
 
Sile said:
Where is your proof that haplogroup R is west-Eurasian, when its documented that R's founding Haplogroup P is South-east Asian ?
Geography and genetics are not the same thing. Y DNA R is not east Asian and most likely originated in what we call west Eurasians, evidence is an Upper Palaeolithic Siberian who was autosomally west Eurasian with no traces of east Asian ancestry had Y DNA R, every population with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian, and not to mention all of Y DNA R's basal clades R1, R2, paragroup R*(it exists in west and south Asia) originated around west Eurasia or south Asia in Upper Palaeolithic times. The ancestors of Y DNA P were probably not east Asian or west Eurasian, but autosomally were still in the ancestral form.
Sile said:
The only proven west-eurasian haplogroups that came out of K haplogroup are I, J, T, L, N and O ..............P is not
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None of those haplogroups have been "proven" to be west Eurasian. No one here knows exactly what west Eurasian is. You should not come to such strong conclusions without studying the evidence very much.
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Aberdeen said:
I think you're quite mistaken, and that you're arguing backwards, timewise. In genetic terms, Mal'ta Boy wasn't actually 37% ANE, 23% European, 10% Northern Amerind, etc. He was part of a group of people who were ancestral to folks in those categories. As such, one might expect him to have a mixture of "European" and "Asian" features. And, while I think that one shouldn't be too rigid about the classification of the facial features of a young child, I believe he was described as supposedly have a mixture of European and Mongolian body and skull structure. I think that in order to get an idea of what Mal'ta Boy and others in his family may have looked like, it's helpful to look at various tribal groups in modern day Siberia and Amerindian people in the Americas. Of course, many Amerindian people in the Americas are actually racially mixed. But even among those who are not, there are a variety of facial features, with some having facial features that we might see as "Oriental", especially in South and Central America, and others having more "European" features, especially in North America. But others don't really fit into either category and I think that was probably what Mal'ta Boy and his clan looked like - not really "Oriental" or "European". And I think we tend to try to classify Amerindian people as looking either "Oriental" or "European" because those are the categories we think of, but such labeling is often not really accurate. Similarly, there are still a few Europeans who have facial features that we might describe as being "Asian" simply because we don't have a descriptor such as "Paleolithic features".
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You're confusing the facts. MA1 in admixtures scores in various components because his relatives contributed ancestry to many people NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE AN ANCESTRAL POPULATION OF EURASIANS. MA1 was specifically most related to Mesolithic Europeans, he had sometype of connection with what we call WEST EURASIAN. How many times do I have to say this for crying out loud. Aberdeen you should actually read the studies about MA1's DNA before coming up with your wild theories which are based on your fantasies that the Eurasian splits and modern racial features are recent developments.
 
Where does it say its origin is west-Eurasian when its parent is south-east asian, do you have proof?

I never said R is Eastasian, I said R's parent is South-east asian

Fire Haired14 said:
Sile said:
Where is your proof that haplogroup R is west-Eurasian, when its documented that R's founding Haplogroup P is South-east Asian ?
Geography and genetics are not the same thing. Y DNA R is not east Asian and most likely originated in what we call west Eurasians, evidence is an Upper Palaeolithic Siberian who was autosomally west Eurasian with no traces of east Asian ancestry had Y DNA R, every population with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian, and not to mention all of Y DNA R's basal clades R1, R2, paragroup R*(it exists in west and south Asia) originated around west Eurasia or south Asia in Upper Palaeolithic times. The ancestors of Y DNA P were probably not east Asian or west Eurasian, but autosomally were still in the ancestral form.
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They ( I, J, T, L, N, O ) have more WestEurasian in this point in time than R haplogroup does, also considering they formed not in South-east asia, then they would be gedrosian or caucasian. Unless you can provide where R origins are after It's "father" originated in south-east asian, then I fail to see what you are talking about.

besides doesn't this link show that northern Europe has some eastasian in it?
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393


None of those haplogroups have been "proven" to be west Eurasian. No one here knows exactly what west Eurasian is. You should not come to such strong conclusions without studying the evidence very much.
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IMO, R is south-asian
South Asia has great R1 diversity and unique or un-derived R1 subclades
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Sile, like I said before geography is not the same thing as genetics. If Y DNA P did originate in southeast Asia some 40,000 years ago that probably means that the original carriers were equally related to west and east Eurasians, and so genetically speaking it would be an Eurasian haplogroup. Maybe Y DNA R did originate in south Asia, I doubt it because all the evidence in my opinion points to an ANE and or west Eurasian origin. Paragroups R-M207*, R1-M173*, R1b-M343*, R1b1a-P25*, R1b1a2-M269*, R1a1-M17*, along with F*, IJ-M429*(only found in Iran), I2*, and I* are found in west Asia which is very interesting and evidence of unknown lineages which probably have been in west Asia for 10,000's of years. I'm afraid to repeat myself or say anymore on this subject because I don't know it enough and I'll regret my posts.
 
That’s interesting that Icelandic singer Bjork looks so east Asian. According to the Ydna frequencies here on Eupedia, Icelanders have 1% ydna N. If she is 100% Icelandic as she claims, I wonder if it’s the ‘N’ genes coming into play here.

My hunch is that the Mongoloid phenotype – or at least most of the traits associated with it – originated on the ‘NO’ branch of the ydna tree, possibly with an archaic admixture event – although I guess we’ll have to wait and see what future ancient dna results tell us about that.
 
JS Bach said:
That’s interesting that Icelandic singer Bjork looks so east Asian. According to the Ydna frequencies here on Eupedia, Icelanders have 1% ydna N. If she is 100% Icelandic as she claims, I wonder if it’s the ‘N’ genes coming into play here.

My hunch is that the Mongoloid phenotype – or at least most of the traits associated with it – originated on the ‘NO’ branch of the ydna tree, possibly with an archaic admixture event – although I guess we’ll have to wait and see what future ancient dna results tell us about that.
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This is a typical opinion thrown in without any supportive evidence and based entirely on what one wants to believe!

It is now pretty clear that NO arose in Southeast Asia (See Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) and must have represented Southeast Asian phenotype, which is still the dominating phenotype in people bearing haplogroup O (typical in particular in East India, Indo-China, South and Southwest China, Taiwan). N is much younger (13.8-18 kya, Shi et al 2013) and seems to have originally represented Southwest Chinese phenotype which of course was Mongoloid at that time. However, the roots of many Mongolid traits (e.g. Sinodonty) must be in the north, probably in Palaeolithic Altai – Siberia, whatever their yDNA’s were. N is much too young and restricted in numbers to have developed an entire race in the post-Ice Age world.
 
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Sile said:
Where is your proof that haplogroup R is west-Eurasian, when its documented that R's founding Haplogroup P is South-east Asian ?

The only proven west-eurasian haplogroups that came out of K haplogroup are I, J, T, L, N and O ..............P is not
Click to expand...

I was merely doing a play with logics, using Kristiina's own remark that...
Kristiina said:
genetic ancestry cannot supersede skeletal morphological traits as an indicator of race!
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...to show that it would still place R* in West-Eurasiana at 24.0000 ybp.

Mind you, if we were to call R* not West-Eurasian because its parent isn't than we end up all having African haplogroups: A. So I gather somewhere in between very long a ago and recently R became (primarily) West-Eurasian. Apart, obviously, from R1b V88.

This shows that, just like language, Y-DNA only roughly coincides with autosomal DNA.
 
Kristiina said:
It is now pretty clear that NO arose in Southeast Asia (See Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) and must have represented Southeast Asian phenotype, which is still the dominating phenotype in people bearing haplogroup O (typical in particular in East India, Indo-China, South and Southwest China, Taiwan).
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Yes, I’m aware of that paper. Yet, from this Eurogenes post: http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html

“Below is the bar graph from the K=9 (nine ancestral populations assumed) ADMIXTURE analysis, which turned out to be the optimal run. Note that the Mal'ta sample appears mostly South Asian (37%), European (34%), and Amerindian (26%), but also with minor Oceanian ancestry (4%).”


It estimates only 4% of the Mal’ta boy’s genes had the Oceanian-like component.


Similarly, in a post with your name (my apologies if it isn’t your post) on this thread: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.ca/2013/12/the-malta-adna-findings.html it shows a breakdown of Afontova Gora’s autosomal dna as being:


Globe 4
•70.95% Caucasoid (“European”)
•28.11% Indianid (“Amerindian”)
•0.91% Negroid (“African”)
•0.03% Mongoloid (“Asian”)

Globe13
•62.62% Nordic (“North_European”)
•11.87% Indianid (“Amerindian”)
•10.70% Alpine (“West_Asian”)
•7.45% Veddoid (“South_Asian”)
•6.54% Eskimid (“Arctic”)
•0.61% Paleo-Negrid (“West_African”)
•0.13% Melanesid (“Australasian”)
•0.07% Nilotid (“East_African”)
•0.00% Capoid (“Palaeo_African”)
•0.00% Mediterranean (“Mediterranean”)
•0.00% Orientalid (“Southwest_Asian”)
•0.00% Sinid (“East_Asian”)
•0.00% Tungid (“Siberian”)


So my point is that even if Ydna P originated in Southeast Asia, its apparent Mal’ta and Afontova Gora descendants don’t appear to have had much of their dna in common with people in that region today, based on these breakdowns.
 
JS Bach said:
Yes, I’m aware of that paper. Yet, from this Eurogenes post: http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html

“Below is the bar graph from the K=9 (nine ancestral populations assumed) ADMIXTURE analysis, which turned out to be the optimal run. Note that the Mal'ta sample appears mostly South Asian (37%), European (34%), and Amerindian (26%), but also with minor Oceanian ancestry (4%).”

It estimates only 4% of the Mal’ta boy’s genes had the Oceanian-like component.

Similarly, in a post with your name (my apologies if it isn’t your post) on this thread: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.ca/2013/12/the-malta-adna-findings.html it shows a breakdown of Afontova Gora’s autosomal dna as being:

So my point is that even if Ydna P originated in Southeast Asia, its apparent Mal’ta and Afontova Gora descendants don’t appear to have had much of their dna in common with people in that region today, based on these breakdowns.
Click to expand...


Never mind! That 4% ancestry is given in the Mal'ta paper in November, and this higher percentage comes from the more recent Lazaridis paper which includes also Onge and Australians, so it is more complete. I suppose that a part of the South Asian portion has been moved under Onge. Also ANE is missing in the Malta paper, as it shows only South Asian and European components while the other paper shows European, ANE, ASI and Onge components. The Native American part is also more detailed.

While people move, genes change. As I said above, my Southeast Asian percentage is 1.22%, and it may be all that is left from yDNA N's path from Southeast Asia. My Northeast Asian ancestry is more than double that amount, i.e. 5.65%. Similarly, my ANE percentage is double that amount, i.e. c. 12%. The percentage of local DNA is however 70%! Other smaller portions are Mediterranean, West Asian, South Asian and Northwest African components. The most exciting thing is however the finding that probably part of my Northeast Asian ancestry belongs to the Native American cluster (apparent in Eurogenes and Geno2 calculators).
 
JS Bach said:
That’s interesting that Icelandic singer Bjork looks so east Asian. According to the Ydna frequencies here on Eupedia, Icelanders have 1% ydna N. If she is 100% Icelandic as she claims, I wonder if it’s the ‘N’ genes coming into play here.

My hunch is that the Mongoloid phenotype – or at least most of the traits associated with it – originated on the ‘NO’ branch of the ydna tree, possibly with an archaic admixture event – although I guess we’ll have to wait and see what future ancient dna results tell us about that.
Click to expand...

I wasn't saying I thought Bjork had any more "east Asian" ancestry than the average European - I doubt she does, and I doubt that her DNA shows any peculiarities compared to other people from Iceland. I was just commenting on the fact that a few Europeans have an appearance that we perceive as "Asian" because we don't have another name for it, but it's probably just the way the genes happened to combine to produce a certain appearance that I was speculating could be closer to what ancient Europeans looked like before the Gravettian period. But that was just speculation - we don't actually know. What we do know is that the earliest Europeans contributed only a bit to modern European DNA, so probably had quite a different appearance, although we may never know for sure exactly what they looked like. And when people try to describe the autosomal mixture or the physical features of ancient skulls by saying that they're 75% modern European and 25% Mongoloid or whatever, I'm sure they don't actually believe that the person was descended from modern Europeans and modern Asians or whatever, but I think that using such a verbal shortcut can lead to confused thinking about how our ancestors mixed and developed over time.
 
I was looking at the Admixture results for various Northern European samples for k=4 and k=3:

PopulationSourceNEuropeanAsianAfricanAmerindian
Russian_DDodecad2187.72010.3
Polish_DDodecad2091.8008.2
German_DDodecad2093007
Irish_DDodecad1792.4007.6
Finnish_DDodecad1584.33.6012.1
Swedish_DDodecad1491.2008.8
English_DDodecad1193.1006.9
Lithuanian_DDodecad1090.9009.1
Norwegian_DDodecad1091.6008.4
Dutch_DDodecad993.3006.7


PopulationSourceNAsianAfricanEuropean
Russian_DDodecad216.3093.7
Polish_DDodecad202.4097.6
German_DDodecad201.2098.8
Irish_DDodecad171.1098.9
Finnish_DDodecad1510.1089.9
Swedish_DDodecad142.5097.5
English_DDodecad111.1098.9
Lithuanian_DDodecad102.6097.4
Norwegian_DDodecad102.3097.7
Dutch_DDodecad91099



When going from k=4 to k=3, it looks like a smaller proportion of the Amerindian component in k=4 goes to Asian in k=3 for Ireland and the West Germanic countries: Germany, England and Holland (16%), while the North Germanic countries: Norway and Sweden go from Amerindian to Asian at a higher rate (28%), with Poland and Lithuania a bit higher (29%), and with Finland and Russia appearing to have the highest proportion of Amerindian going to Asian (54% and 42%).

I suspect that at least some of the Amerindian component is associated with Ydna Q and N. And my guess would be that the N-related genes would go to Asian at a higher rate than the Q-related genes. And there tends to be a higher proportion of Ydna N the more one goes from West to East among those ten countries, while Q remains relatively uniform, peaking in Sweden.

And if by the k=3 table Icelanders are about 1.7% Asian (Norwegian + Irish)/2, then maybe Bjork's phenotype would come up occasionally, but that's just a wild guess.
 
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JS Bach said:
And if by the k=3 table Icelanders are about 1.7% Asian (Norwegian + Irish)/2, then maybe Bjork's phenotype would come up occasionally, but that's just a wild guess.
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My guess is that these European Amerindians looked pretty much like Björk, and perhaps Malta boy looked like her as well.
 
I just noticed something from the tables in my last post. If you subtract the Asian component in the k=3 table from the Amerindian component, and then re-add the Asian component in the k=4 table, the result is the last column in this table:
PopulationSourceNEuropeanAsianAfricanAmerindianAsian in k=3Amerindian
+ Asian in k=3
- Asian in k=4
Russian_DDodecad2187.72010.36.36
Polish_DDodecad2091.8008.22.45.8
German_DDodecad20930071.25.8
Irish_DDodecad1792.4007.61.16.5
Finnish_DDodecad1584.33.6012.110.15.6
Swedish_DDodecad1491.2008.82.56.3
English_DDodecad1193.1006.91.15.8
Lithuanian_DDodecad1090.9009.12.66.5
Norwegian_DDodecad1091.6008.42.36.1
Dutch_DDodecad993.3006.715.7


I suspect this resulting subset of the Admixture with k=4 Amerindian component largely removes the ydna N-related genes, and mostly represents the ydna Q-related genes.

And it is remarkably consistent across all ten Northern European samples, all within a single percentage point, ranging from 5.6% in Finland to 6.5% in Ireland and Lithuania.

So what does this component represent, that makes up 6% of the genomes of Northern Europeans? My best guess is that it’s related to the Solutreans who lived in Southwestern Europe around 20,000 ybp. The closest subclade to Q-M3 – the main subclade of Native Americans – on the phylogenetic tree is Q-L804, which seems to be found exclusively in Northern Europe: http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/409/

Several ancient dna finds of Swedish hunter gatherers have revealed a higher Amerindian component for k=4 than those ten contemporary populations: http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/05/05/analyses-of-the-stora-forvar-11-genome/comment-page-1/ 7,500 to 7,250 years ago
http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/05/08/analyses-of-more-prehistoric-swedish-genomes/ Ajvide 59 (4,900–4,600 BP) was 23.51% Amerindian
http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/analyses-of-the-ajvide-58-genome/
http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/11/30/analyses-of-the-ire-8-genome/
And some of those samples had high ANE percentages – Motala12 (7,000-8,000 ybp) was 19% ANE, and Ajvide58 had 15% of something similar: http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2014/04/more-ancient-scandinavians-skoglund.html

As to whether these Amerindian-like people were Mongoloid or Caucasoid, I suspect that the k=3 breakdown reveals much of the answer, as it appears that the large majority of those Amerindian genes fall into the ‘European’ classification, for all but the Finnish and Russian samples. And even more so with the results where I tried to remove the ydna N factor. Although, I’ve been wrong before.
 
JS Bach said:
I just noticed something from the tables in my last post. If you subtract the Asian

As to whether these Amerindian-like people were Mongoloid or Caucasoid, I suspect that the k=3 breakdown reveals much of the answer, as it appears that the large majority of those Amerindian genes fall into the ‘European’ classification, for all but the Finnish and Russian samples. And even more so with the results where I tried to remove the ydna N factor. Although, I’ve been wrong before.
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Do your percentages mean that the Finnish Amerindian percentage is so high because
it arrived at least twice, first with the Solutreans (5-6% evenly spread over
Northern Europe) and next with some yDNA N clade?
 
Kristiina said:
My guess is that these European Amerindians looked pretty much like Björk, and perhaps Malta boy looked like her as well.
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I'm sure Bjork has pigmentation snps within the modern European range. Mal'ta did not.
 
Angela said:
I'm sure Bjork has pigmentation snps within the modern European range. Mal'ta did not.
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AG2 did though. That's why I will always say the exact skin of WHG and ANE hunter gatherers is a mystery. I think our best guess is a tone darker than the average European and probably west Asian(they have pretty much the same mutations, don't forget that).
 
To be precise, AG did not have the full complement of de-pigmentation snps present in modern Europeans, although it had some...Pigmentation is a polygenic trait. As I've said ad nauseam, modern forensics tests used everyday by the FBI and other law enforcement entities (I've supervised these situations myself) tell us that a certain combination of snps is necessary for accurate predictions of European style "fair" skin or medium skin, or dark skin, for that matter.

It would be very easy to check for those who have such an interest in this topic: run the AG complement of pigmentation snps through the most recent iteration of these forensics tests and see what skin color is predicted. I'd be very interested to see the results.

Regardless, the discussion was about Mal'ta's physical phenotype and it's correlation, or not, with someone resembling Bjork. When the results were first published, I said that Mal'ta's pigmentation snps were like those of Melanesians, which is interesting given the discussion on this thread.

Of course, there are two caveats to all of this:
l. Perhaps the recovery of snps is not 100% accurate in these ancient samples.
2.Perhaps these ancient people possessed unknown depigmentation snps totally different from the ones present in modern day Europeans, and they are hiding somewhere.
 
Angela, why do you refuse to admit there are unknown SNPs that create the skin color difference between Europeans and middle easterns?

I would like to know about the other SNPs and tests your talking about.
 
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