Politics "WOKE" America

We all come from places where discrimination / slavery was practiced at one time or another, … Focus your indignation on your place of origin.
 
what are you talking about
I am only interested on when he released his 52 slaves as he could not release his wife 135 slaves .............hemmings is part of his wife slave group................I thought after her death ( martha ) he would have done something different........maybe he could not , maybe her will stated otherwise
There was an act in some year, where the will could be contested .....I cannot recall when that year was

You didn't put it in context, … that’s the impression I got.
 
We all come from places where discrimination / slavery was practiced at one time or another, … Focus your indignation on your place of origin.

I have long insisted that intellectual pursuits can only be accomplished when there is leisure and wealth. If you are working from dusk till dawn, there is little time to think great thoughts. If it was not for slavery many if not all of the accomplishments of Ancient Greece and Rome would not have been possible without slavery. It's not wokeness to accept that fact. Of course leisure can lead to other things like drunkness so I am happy that intellectual and artistic pursuits were not elbowed aside.
 
You didn't put it in context, … that’s the impression I got.
I didn't want to go into the West-African slave traders in great detail.............where White trade bought black slaves from Black tribes from mostly the kingdoms of modern Nigeria and the Congo these black slaves where results of their ongoing tribal wars which began centuries before white men set foot in Africa.
.
Nigeria and the Congo supplied the most of the african slaves and it cost white slave traders a lot of money ................while places further west , ie Senegal had only 2 slave ships in 80 years
The details of these books/records from Spanish and English slave traders is extensive and still being reviewed today...............the details are even down to numbers of beasts of burden bought from these African tribes and shipped across the Atlantic Ocean.
Surprising is the Kingdoms of Nigeria and Congo is the main source , that is the bulk of caribeean and american slaves come from
Arabs controlled the east-african slave trade from Zanzibar and Tanzania
Berbers controlled the white slave trade from North Africa
and others
 
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I didn't want to go into the West-African slave trade in great detail.............where White trade bought black slaves from Black tribes from mostly the kingdoms of modern Nigeria and the Congo these black slaves where results of their ongoing tribal wars which began centuries before white men set foot in Africa.
.
Nigeria and the Congo supplied the most of the african slaves and it cost white slave traders a lot of money ................while places further west , ie Senegal had only 2 slave ships in 80 years
The details of these books/records from Spanish and English slave traders is extensive and still being reviewed today...............the details are even down to numbers of beasts of burden bought from these African tribes and shipped across the Atlantic Ocean.
Surprising is the Kingdoms of Nigeria and Congo is the main source , that is the bulk of caribeean and american slaves come from
Arabs controlled the east-african slave trade from Zanzibar and Tanzania
Berbers controlled the white slave trade from North Africa
and others


BTW......any slaves which where not bought by white slave traders where usually killed by their captors the Nigerian or Conganese "owners' as they where a burden on their society.
 
I have long insisted that intellectual pursuits can only be accomplished when there is leisure and wealth. If you are working from dusk till dawn, there is little time to think great thoughts. If it was not for slavery many if not all of the accomplishments of Ancient Greece and Rome would not have been possible without slavery. It's not wokeness to accept that fact. Of course leisure can lead to other things like drunkness so I am happy that intellectual and artistic pursuits were not elbowed aside.

One could say, if it wasn't for all of those lumberjacks cutting down trees, there never would have been paper to write the next great literary work. Nobody thinks in those terms, but when it comes to slavery, they only say that, because it makes them feel virtuous for emulating the compassion of the Hollywood-underdog narrative. In reality, slaves were interchangeable and insignificant in society. If it wasn't for those soldiers who imposed the will of the elite, nothing would have been done.
 
One could say, if it wasn't for all of those lumberjacks cutting down trees, there never would have been paper to write the next great literary work. Nobody thinks in those terms, but when it comes to slavery, they only say that, because it makes them feel virtuous for emulating the compassion of the Hollywood-underdog narrative. In reality, slaves were interchangeable and insignificant in society. If it wasn't for those soldiers who imposed the will of the elite, nothing would have been done.

Nobody gives a crap about the wage-slaves/defacto slaves working two or three jobs today, to keep the lights on. Or the hundreds of millions of sweat-shop workers that crafted the clothes we wear, or the devices we use. This beatification of the ancient slaves, and what not, is just patting people on the head, while they keep getting screwed to the core.

Big corporations have consumed the left-wing narrative; they have neutralized it, and took it out of the hands of radicals. Amazon, Google, Apple, Big Media; they are the King-makers for the left-wing, and they put their corporate-friendly candidate in power, while they pay lip-service to the masses.
 
Imagine after spending years paying off a mortgage on your house, you turn around and tell your family that you owe everything that you accomplished to the contractor, mason, painters, etc. who physically built it up. Nobody thinks like that.

Mind you, I come from a working-class background. Both of my parents went to work, and my father worked two jobs. They didn't think in these terms either, they always taught me to get an education so I wouldn't have to work with my hands, and break my back. Because there is no glory, and virtue in being a donkey!

Growing up, I noticed a lot of other ethnic groups didn't really have this mentality, these people are stagnant, or going backwards. Italians-Americans always push for their children to get a good education, and good paying jobs. That's is why Italian-Americans went from poor immigrants from the backward-south to wealthy Americans:

[h=2]Detailed ancestry[edit][/h]
RankGroupIncome (US$)
1Indian Americans135,809
2Taiwanese Americans102,405
3Australian Americans100,856
4Filipino Americans100,273
5South African Americans98,212
6Indonesian Americans93,501
7Macedonian Americans87,803
8Pakistani Americans87,509
9Iranian Americans87,288
10Lebanese Americans87,099
11Austrian Americans86,499
12Russian Americans85,989
13Turkish Americans85,812
14Chinese Americans85,424
15Japanese Americans85,007
16Swiss Americans82,974
17Slovene Americans82,728
18Italian Americans82,106
19Greek Americans82,036
20Israeli Americans81,901
21Romanian Americans81,878
22Ukrainian Americans81,603
23Serbian Americans81,452
24Croatian Americans80,683
25Slovak Americans80,388
26Swedish Americans80,228
27Czech Americans80,142
28Bulgarian Americans80,626
29Norwegian Americans79,783
30Scottish Americans79,544
31Polish Americans79,503
32Danish Americans79,500
33Portuguese Americans79,050
34Belgian Americans78,355
35English Americans78,078
36Welsh Americans77,949
37Hungarian Americans77,611
38Finnish Americans77,356
39Armenian Americans77,110
40Korean Americans76,674
41Canadian Americans76,665
42German Americans76,036
43French Canadian Americans75,949
44Irish Americans75,583
45Syrian Americans74,047
46Hmong Americans73,373
47Vietnamese Americans72,161
48Albanian Americans72,043
49Cambodian Americans72,038
50Spanish Americans71,903
51French Americans71,407
52Dutch Americans70,872
53Ghanaian Americans69,021
54Nigerian Americans68,658
55Bangladeshi Americans67,944
56Guyanese Americans67,772
57Tanzanian Americans67,327
58Egyptian Americans67,187
59Palestinian Americans67,157
60Thai Americans66,763
61Laotian Americans66,117
62West Indian Americans65,258
63Samoan Americans64,941
64Barbadian Americans64,588
65Nepalese Americans63,619
66Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac Americans63,301
Median American Household Income (63,179)
67Trinidadian and Tobagonian Americans62,120
68Jamaican Americans62,044
69Polynesian Americans61,654
70Micronesian Americans61,309
71Kenyan Americans61,000
72American Americans58,601
73Haitian Americans57,451
74Brazilian Americans56,151
75Cuban Americans56,005
76Argentine Americans55,000
77Cajun Americans52,886
78Moroccan Americans52,436
79Peruvian Americans52,000
80Jordanian Americans51,552
81Pennsylvania Dutch48,955
82Ecuadorian Americans48,600
83Colombian Americans48,000
84Cape Verdean Americans47,281
85Burmese Americans45,903
86Afghan Americans46,838
87African Americans46,073
88Bahamian Americans42,000
89Appalachian Americans38,593
90Mexican Americans38,000
91Puerto Rican Americans36,000
92Ethiopian Americans36,000
93Iraqi Americans32,818
94Dominican Americans32,300
95Somali Americans23,000

Median Household Income by detailed ancestry (2021 American Community Survey) [10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income
 
Imagine after spending years paying off a mortgage on your house, you turn around and tell your family that you owe everything that you accomplished to the contractor, mason, painters, etc. who physically built it up. Nobody thinks like that.

Mind you, I come from a working-class background. Both of my parents went to work, and my father worked two jobs. They didn't think in these terms either, they always taught me to get an education so I wouldn't have to work with my hands, and break my back. Because there is no glory, and virtue in being a donkey!

Growing up, I noticed a lot of other ethnic groups didn't really have this mentality, these people are stagnant, or going backwards. Italians-Americans always push for their children to get a good education, and good paying jobs. That's is why Italian-Americans went from poor immigrants from the backward-south to wealthy Americans:

Detailed ancestry[edit]


RankGroupIncome (US$)
1Indian Americans135,809
2Taiwanese Americans102,405
3Australian Americans100,856
4Filipino Americans100,273
5South African Americans98,212
6Indonesian Americans93,501
7Macedonian Americans87,803
8Pakistani Americans87,509
9Iranian Americans87,288
10Lebanese Americans87,099
11Austrian Americans86,499
12Russian Americans85,989
13Turkish Americans85,812
14Chinese Americans85,424
15Japanese Americans85,007
16Swiss Americans82,974
17Slovene Americans82,728
18Italian Americans82,106
19Greek Americans82,036
20Israeli Americans81,901
21Romanian Americans81,878
22Ukrainian Americans81,603
23Serbian Americans81,452
24Croatian Americans80,683
25Slovak Americans80,388
26Swedish Americans80,228
27Czech Americans80,142
28Bulgarian Americans80,626
29Norwegian Americans79,783
30Scottish Americans79,544
31Polish Americans79,503
32Danish Americans79,500
33Portuguese Americans79,050
34Belgian Americans78,355
35English Americans78,078
36Welsh Americans77,949
37Hungarian Americans77,611
38Finnish Americans77,356
39Armenian Americans77,110
40Korean Americans76,674
41Canadian Americans76,665
42German Americans76,036
43French Canadian Americans75,949
44Irish Americans75,583
45Syrian Americans74,047
46Hmong Americans73,373
47Vietnamese Americans72,161
48Albanian Americans72,043
49Cambodian Americans72,038
50Spanish Americans71,903
51French Americans71,407
52Dutch Americans70,872
53Ghanaian Americans69,021
54Nigerian Americans68,658
55Bangladeshi Americans67,944
56Guyanese Americans67,772
57Tanzanian Americans67,327
58Egyptian Americans67,187
59Palestinian Americans67,157
60Thai Americans66,763
61Laotian Americans66,117
62West Indian Americans65,258
63Samoan Americans64,941
64Barbadian Americans64,588
65Nepalese Americans63,619
66Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac Americans63,301
Median American Household Income (63,179)
67Trinidadian and Tobagonian Americans62,120
68Jamaican Americans62,044
69Polynesian Americans61,654
70Micronesian Americans61,309
71Kenyan Americans61,000
72American Americans58,601
73Haitian Americans57,451
74Brazilian Americans56,151
75Cuban Americans56,005
76Argentine Americans55,000
77Cajun Americans52,886
78Moroccan Americans52,436
79Peruvian Americans52,000
80Jordanian Americans51,552
81Pennsylvania Dutch48,955
82Ecuadorian Americans48,600
83Colombian Americans48,000
84Cape Verdean Americans47,281
85Burmese Americans45,903
86Afghan Americans46,838
87African Americans46,073
88Bahamian Americans42,000
89Appalachian Americans38,593
90Mexican Americans38,000
91Puerto Rican Americans36,000
92Ethiopian Americans36,000
93Iraqi Americans32,818
94Dominican Americans32,300
95Somali Americans23,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

Important to understand too that a lot of the Americans at the top of the list came to this country with degrees in computer science, technology and engineering or medicine (This is particularly true of the small population of Indian Americans, some of whom got their degrees here), or they came as family groups with money to invest, some just to get a bigger return, and some because they're fleeing situations in their country, like South African Americans or Chinese from Hong Kong or Indians from Indonesia. They are examples of capitalism in action. Where I am virtually every motel and convenience store, including all the 7-11 stores, are owned by Indian or Pakistani Americans. I have respect for them for learning how to make it, and because they seem to work 12-14 hours a day. (The Chinese and Koreans are a mixed bag. Some of the Chinese are virtually indentured servants perpetually paying off the gang lords who got them here illegally, and a lot of the Koreans who come only seem to have enough capital to open the smallest stores.)

Still, it's all very different from arriving here illiterate or semi-literate and with not a dime in your pocket, as was the case for most Italian Americans who arrived with the big wave of immigration in the early 20th century, and pushing your kids up the socio-economic ladder in this way. The Greeks and Turks are self evident too; they've been traders and small business owners forever. Is there a diner near you "not" owned by a Greek family, a family where everybody works long hours?)

Then they see big government taking so much of their hard earned money and giving it away on failed programs, and they get angry. Who could blame them? I get angry sometimes too. We played by all the rules. Study hours a day while your father works twelve hours a day, go to a good university, then get an advanced degree, all on academic scholarships, work twelve hours a day yourself, save money for a down payment on a house before you have children, continue working long hours to pay that mortgage and support your family, only have two children because you don't have the energy for a demanding job and a big family, pay your taxes dutifully, save money anyway and invest it, and pay tax on those earnings, then realize the money you leave your children will also be taxed, so you try to shelter some of it, and now the government says you soon won't be able to do that either. What's the point of saving then? There's something wrong with wanting to help your children have it a little easier than you did? It's infuriating.
 
Important to understand too that a lot of the Americans at the top of the list came to this country with degrees in computer science, technology and engineering or medicine (This is particularly true of the small population of Indian Americans, some of whom got their degrees here), or they came as family groups with money to invest, some just to get a bigger return, and some because they're fleeing situations in their country, like South African Americans or Chinese from Hong Kong or Indians from Indonesia. They are examples of capitalism in action. Where I am virtually every motel and convenience store, including all the 7-11 stores, are owned by Indian or Pakistani Americans. I have respect for them for learning how to make it, and because they seem to work 12-14 hours a day. (The Chinese and Koreans are a mixed bag. Some of the Chinese are virtually indentured servants perpetually paying off the gang lords who got them here illegally, and a lot of the Koreans who come only seem to have enough capital to open the smallest stores.)

Still, it's all very different from arriving here illiterate or semi-literate and with not a dime in your pocket, as was the case for most Italian Americans who arrived with the big wave of immigration in the early 20th century, and pushing your kids up the socio-economic ladder in this way. The Greeks and Turks are self evident too; they've been traders and small business owners forever. Is there a diner near you "not" owned by a Greek family, a family where everybody works long hours?)

Then they see big government taking so much of their hard earned money and giving it away on failed programs, and they get angry. Who could blame them? I get angry sometimes too. We played by all the rules. Study hours a day while your father works twelve hours a day, go to a good university, then get an advanced degree, all on academic scholarships, work twelve hours a day yourself, save money for a down payment on a house before you have children, continue working long hours to pay that mortgage and support your family, only have two children because you don't have the energy for a demanding job and a big family, pay your taxes dutifully, save money anyway and invest it, and pay tax on those earnings, then realize the money you leave your children will also be taxed, so you try to shelter some of it, and now the government says you soon won't be able to do that either. What's the point of saving then? There's something wrong with wanting to help your children have it a little easier than you did? It's infuriating.

Yes exactly that is also the case for Iraqi Americans who are nearly at the bottom at list, most of them came as war refugees in last few decades.
 
Imagine after spending years paying off a mortgage on your house, you turn around and tell your family that you owe everything that you accomplished to the contractor, mason, painters, etc. who physically built it up. Nobody thinks like that.

Mind you, I come from a working-class background. Both of my parents went to work, and my father worked two jobs. They didn't think in these terms either, they always taught me to get an education so I wouldn't have to work with my hands, and break my back. Because there is no glory, and virtue in being a donkey!

Growing up, I noticed a lot of other ethnic groups didn't really have this mentality, these people are stagnant, or going backwards. Italians-Americans always push for their children to get a good education, and good paying jobs. That's is why Italian-Americans went from poor immigrants from the backward-south to wealthy Americans:

Detailed ancestry[edit]


RankGroupIncome (US$)
1Indian Americans135,809
2Taiwanese Americans102,405
3Australian Americans100,856
4Filipino Americans100,273
5South African Americans98,212
6Indonesian Americans93,501
7Macedonian Americans87,803
8Pakistani Americans87,509
9Iranian Americans87,288
10Lebanese Americans87,099
11Austrian Americans86,499
12Russian Americans85,989
13Turkish Americans85,812
14Chinese Americans85,424
15Japanese Americans85,007
16Swiss Americans82,974
17Slovene Americans82,728
18Italian Americans82,106
19Greek Americans82,036
20Israeli Americans81,901
21Romanian Americans81,878
22Ukrainian Americans81,603
23Serbian Americans81,452
24Croatian Americans80,683
25Slovak Americans80,388
26Swedish Americans80,228
27Czech Americans80,142
28Bulgarian Americans80,626
29Norwegian Americans79,783
30Scottish Americans79,544
31Polish Americans79,503
32Danish Americans79,500
33Portuguese Americans79,050
34Belgian Americans78,355
35English Americans78,078
36Welsh Americans77,949
37Hungarian Americans77,611
38Finnish Americans77,356
39Armenian Americans77,110
40Korean Americans76,674
41Canadian Americans76,665
42German Americans76,036
43French Canadian Americans75,949
44Irish Americans75,583
45Syrian Americans74,047
46Hmong Americans73,373
47Vietnamese Americans72,161
48Albanian Americans72,043
49Cambodian Americans72,038
50Spanish Americans71,903
51French Americans71,407
52Dutch Americans70,872
53Ghanaian Americans69,021
54Nigerian Americans68,658
55Bangladeshi Americans67,944
56Guyanese Americans67,772
57Tanzanian Americans67,327
58Egyptian Americans67,187
59Palestinian Americans67,157
60Thai Americans66,763
61Laotian Americans66,117
62West Indian Americans65,258
63Samoan Americans64,941
64Barbadian Americans64,588
65Nepalese Americans63,619
66Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac Americans63,301
Median American Household Income (63,179)
67Trinidadian and Tobagonian Americans62,120
68Jamaican Americans62,044
69Polynesian Americans61,654
70Micronesian Americans61,309
71Kenyan Americans61,000
72American Americans58,601
73Haitian Americans57,451
74Brazilian Americans56,151
75Cuban Americans56,005
76Argentine Americans55,000
77Cajun Americans52,886
78Moroccan Americans52,436
79Peruvian Americans52,000
80Jordanian Americans51,552
81Pennsylvania Dutch48,955
82Ecuadorian Americans48,600
83Colombian Americans48,000
84Cape Verdean Americans47,281
85Burmese Americans45,903
86Afghan Americans46,838
87African Americans46,073
88Bahamian Americans42,000
89Appalachian Americans38,593
90Mexican Americans38,000
91Puerto Rican Americans36,000
92Ethiopian Americans36,000
93Iraqi Americans32,818
94Dominican Americans32,300
95Somali Americans23,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

Wow interessting, Iranian Americans rank 9 in the USA. In Germany it is kinda the same, next to Vietnamese Germans, Iranian Germans are among the best integrated communities. Iranians anywhere in the Diaspora are among the most educated and best earning groups. Most left after the 1979 Revolution because of this awful religious goverment.

Italian Americans are among the Top 20 in the USA which is surprising because Italians started from a very humble situation. What happened here ? From zero to hero ? :LOL:
 
Wow interessting, Iranian Americans rank 9 in the USA. In Germany it is kinda the same, next to Vietnamese Germans, Iranian Germans are among the best integrated communities. Iranians anywhere in the Diaspora are among the most educated and best earning groups. Most left after the 1979 Revolution because of this awful religious goverment.

Italian Americans are among the Top 20 in the USA which is surprising because Italians started from a very humble situation. What happened here ? From zero to hero ? :LOL:

Plus, of the 17 above us, except for the Russian American group which contains a great number of Jews (their religion, often nominal, allowed them to get visas out of the Soviet Union, and there's a huge colony in New York alone), and the Macedonians, Austrians, Swiss, and Slovenes, whom I don't know much about, the rest all came here with money, often a lot of it, and an education.

And no, it's not mob money, in case it occurs to someone to speculate, because they're a small percentage of Italian-Americans, and more to the point, even if they were a large percentage, "they" don't pay taxes, so their income is impossible to calculate. :) Watch "Goodfellas" in case you haven't already; most realistic depiction of "mob life" I've ever seen. The FBI broke them eventually, of course, but they had to pass a statute which is unconstitutional, imo, the so-called RICO statute in order to do it. All that money then went into semi-legitimate businesses, more white collar crime, where it still is laundered and unreported.

You can start at 1:50.

Of course, this was all a romanticized attempt to excuse himself. No one had to go this route to get ahead, and Michael didn't have to either, and their children still got there if not them...heads of corporations, of the New York Stock Exchange, famous doctors and lawyers and prosecutors, mayors of major cities, governors of states, Supreme Court Justices, entertainers, you name it. Only the Presidency has eluded us thus far.

That's why all those studies showing that America isn't different, that wealthy people always come from wealthy families even here, are completely wrong. Most Italians who came here did get to live the American dream, or at least their children and grandchildren did. It was true for other immigrant groups as well, like Greeks, for example, and the Ashkenazi Jews, who are the greatest success story of all, and they came here as poor as the Italians, although they had the advantage of literacy.
 
I agree that ‘wokism’ lacks a strong scientific foundation. It is mostly theoretical conjecture and its arguments are difficult to test in practice. It has gone quite far beyond philosophical discussion over important issues touching on racial justice, policing, and the manifold dimensions of identity (gender, body shape and ability, age, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, indigenous recognition etc). ‘Social movement activism’ is the catalyst operating the shift from philosophy to political action and this is a construct of US academic circles which over the past few decades have leveraged the works of Foucault (white hetero male power and social control through societal institutions) and Derrida (the power of language to drive behaviour and attitudes and cultural identity) and Marxist feminist critical theory (W.E.B. Du Bois) to create new theoretical paradigms encapsulated in standpoint theory (see Dorothy Smith, Patricia Hills Collins, Sandra Harding et al) and intersectionality (see ‘bell hooks’ and Kathy Davis et al). These theories are driving the political movement and social change you’re worried about.
The 1960s was a hotbed for anticapitalism, pacifism and feminism. While Foucault and Derrida didn’t have a lasting influence in French intellectual circles, their work was certainly foundational in social movement activism which is powerful in the US.
You could argue that there’s a lack of diversity in decision-making power structures such company boards and executive leadership, parliaments and governments, finance and media with a skew towards older ‘privileged’ white males. You could argue that aware of this critique, we’re seeing token gestures to compensate for this fact such as firms changing recruitment practices to become more inclusive, phasing out the use of ladies and gentlemen (e.g. British Airways) or Mr and Mrs and ‘unisex toilets’ In Australia the popular brand of cheese called Coon was renamed (to Cheer), in the UK there’s has been a lively discussion about whether it’s impolitic to say that only women have a cervix, and some academics in the UK and US are starting to speak up against how unsafe campuses have become as venues for intelligent inquiry over issues of sex and gender, (rather than gender identity alone!).
I think democracy stands out because it more than other regimes protects minorities so I don’t have a problem with social change that strives for better treatment of and respect for people who are objectively discriminated against. For example, the word fat doesn’t make people immediately think about the macronutrient which along with protein and carbohydrate must be consumed for good health. Instead they think about the social meaning of it – i.e. an unsightly person with poor health and mobility, who has no self-control or care for themselves and who will probably be unreliable at work and elsewhere in life due to those perverse behaviours. This has weaponised the word fat to demean people and fat people are so often demeaned in public which I find totally appalling. But medical professionals are having trouble doing their job which is to address the health outcomes of obesity without appearing to discriminate and demean the obese. Same with race – if you identify a person of colour, you discriminate against their race but if you don’t acknowledge it, you refuse to acknowledge their difference and how it has been used to disadvantage them. Social movement activism raises these double binds all the time and you never get a clear narrative about what conduct, which policies and what behaviours are actually neutral on discrimination and disadvantage. It’s a movement of permanent outrage.



 
Charlemagne da God isn't being realistic here. Even Bill Maher and his guest, who are liberals think his demands are ridiculous:


I also get annoyed when activists minimize the contributions of all of the other people in this country. What?! All of the immigrants that came to this country, (Dare I say even the ones from Europe) didn't have a hand in building this country? The Chinese didn't build the railroads? All of the beautiful façades on brownstone buildings in the North East were made by Italian-Immigrants. I can go on and on. No wonder it isn't a popular policy to endeavor for.

[FONT=&quot]Each immigrant group possesses its own strategies for survival and success. For Italians, theirs rested upon two pillars: work and family. Italian immigrants helped provide the labor for American factories and mines and helped build roads, dams, tunnels, and other infrastructure. Their work provided them a small economic foothold in American society and allowed them to provide for their families, which stood at the core of Italian-American life.

[/FONT]
What Sets Italian Americans Off From Other Immigrants? | The National Endowment for the Humanities (neh.gov)
 
I also get annoyed when activists minimize the contributions of all of the other people in this country. What?! All of the immigrants that came to this country, (Dare I say even the ones from Europe) didn't have a hand in building this country? The Chinese didn't build the railroads? All of the beautiful façades on brownstone buildings in the North East were made by Italian-Immigrants. I can go on and on. No wonder it isn't a popular policy to endeavor for.

These people didn't help build America? As well as the people before them?:

In this study, we measure the contribution of immigrants and their descendents to the growth and industrial transformation of the American workforce in the age of mass immigration from 1880 to 1920. The size and selectivity of the immigrant community, as well as their disproportionate residence in large cities, meant they were the mainstay of the American industrial workforce. Immigrants and their children comprised over half of manufacturing workers in 1920, and if the third generation (the grandchildren of immigrants) are included, then more than two-thirds of workers in the manufacturing sector were of recent immigrant stock. Although higher wages and better working conditions might have encouraged more long-resident native-born workers to the industrial economy, the scale and pace of the American industrial revolution might well have slowed. The closing of the door to mass immigration in the 1920s did lead to increased recruitment of native born workers, particularly from the South, to northern industrial cities in the middle decades of the 20th century.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2760060/
 
These people didn't help build America? As well as the people before them?:

In this study, we measure the contribution of immigrants and their descendents to the growth and industrial transformation of the American workforce in the age of mass immigration from 1880 to 1920. The size and selectivity of the immigrant community, as well as their disproportionate residence in large cities, meant they were the mainstay of the American industrial workforce. Immigrants and their children comprised over half of manufacturing workers in 1920, and if the third generation (the grandchildren of immigrants) are included, then more than two-thirds of workers in the manufacturing sector were of recent immigrant stock. Although higher wages and better working conditions might have encouraged more long-resident native-born workers to the industrial economy, the scale and pace of the American industrial revolution might well have slowed. The closing of the door to mass immigration in the 1920s did lead to increased recruitment of native born workers, particularly from the South, to northern industrial cities in the middle decades of the 20th century.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2760060/

The Industrial Era


This era is also known as the "great wave" of immigration. This is due to the enormous growth in immigration, which resulted in approximately 23 million immigrants settling in the United States. The majority of immigrants were from Southern and Eastern Europe, as well as Scandinavia. However, large numbers of immigrants were non-European. While pale in comparison to immigration from Europe, approximately one million immigrants arrived from Japan, Turkey, and Mexico. In addition, non-Protestant religious groups, including Catholics and Jews immigrated to the United States during this time period. Immigration during the industrial era was not merely a result of favorable policies enacted by the United States government, but also of political unrest, discrimination, and fragile economies in the immigrants' home countries.


https://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/c.php?g=592919&p=4171684
 
As always, you completely miss my point, deliberately perhaps. I didn't say the Europeans were noble; that they weren't was a given. I also specifically added that "There are just people, who have always acted just like people.

Try to get over your bias against me and give me my due when warranted, as I do with you.

just wanted to put emphasis on the fact that columbus was not a good man and that what happened back then can certainly be seen as something bad.


The only difference is that as an Italian citizen I have no power to compel the Germans to tear those statues down, even though we're all supposed to be Europeans living in one union, yes? Hell, as an Italian citizen I didn't even get the chance to force Germany to surrender the monsters in both the Wehrmacht and the SS to our justice system for their atrocities in Italy. Instead, they died of old age in their beds. I think that's a lot more important than some freaking statues.

is that really the only difference? it really doesn't matter for you if those statues were standing in Italy because they mean something for the germanic inhabitants of Italy or if they stand in germany? also the HRE is not really tied to cultural/ethnic replacement in Italy.
Plus, Italians have a tendency to give even their conquerors their due, a trait I don't find altogether admirable; lots of statues of Frederick II around. They're quite fond of him in Foggia where he lived for much of his life and which he loved. Not so much in the cities of the north which grew out of the communes.
that's still not the same imo. those statues were built by Italians themselves long after the time of the HRE.

My point is that history is history. I object to anyone trying to obliterate signs of the past because they dislike it. It's like the Taliban toppling statues of the Buddha. I'll grant you I can see why people wouldn't want a statue of Jefferson Davis around, just as I wouldn't want one of Mussolini in Italy, although I don't mean to draw a comparison between the two as the scale is completely different. However, there's a point where you have to draw the line. Should all statues of the Kings of Savoy and their spouses be torn down because the last one was a weakling and a coward? Should the statues of all the kings and queens of the past be torn down because now we're a democracy?

To pretend that all the founding fathers had slaves or were even in favor of slavery is a lie, but it's a lie taught as part of this curriculum. The idiots writing that curriculum are either deliberately lying or they slept through their American history courses because they were stoned.

if it is a question of where you draw the line, then there certainly is room for discussion. do those statues of Columbus have particular historical value like for example the statues of Buddha that the Taliban destroyed? or can those statues also simply be removed from public places and maybe be placed somewhere else?
 
The problem of slavery in America is that they should have made these African slaves indentured servants ( as in the past )..............the same as the white "slaves" they had previously working for them................the only reason the slave traders went to buy black slaves from Africa was due to these indendured servants finalising their 7 years of free service to their owners........and the white indentured service drying up out of Europe/or not enough of them.

BTW......early on , white and black indentured servants lived in the same "houses" together ..................there was mixing of race already happening from colonial times
 

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