Evolutionary History of R1b M269 based on modern Iberian data

Greying Wanderer said:
There was the long established Atlantic Megalith culture centered on Portugal with branches north to Scandinavia and east into the Med providing a trading link from Sardinia to Sweden. If R1bs were following the neolithic trade network they would have had existing coastal trading settlements to join as a minority. So if they adopted a different language it would seem more likely to me that it would be the language / culture of the Atlantic Megalith people rather than the local HGs.

If correct the distinction between the new arrivals and the Atlantic Megalith people which could potentially lead to R1b founder effects in certain regions could have been groups of them breaking away from the Atlantic Megalith sites to move to copper producing regions like Aldudes* in the Basque country or Ross Island in Ireland.

so theoretical sequence
R1b copper workers (from somewhere) follow the pre-existing neolithic trade routes in all directions
-> as they spread along the trade routes some groups break away to found mining colonies whenever a good new source is found
-> this leads to a localized founder effect in most places it happened but a dramatic one along the Atlantic coast because of the relatively low population density due to acid soil (caused by the leaching effect of heavy rainfall).


very intresting suggestions; I was trying to find out an explication for Y-R1b among Basques, male elite loosing its I-Ean language for the "dominated" one; a male modest group of prospectors accepted at the mergin and marrying locally and loosing their language by time; all the way it doesn' t explain the total overwhelming domination of Y-R1b in West! It could only occur if this vanguard of R1b was arrived earlier tha the others, otherwise they would have kept their I-Ean language, I think;
concerning ores and mining, is Basque country a hotspot in Iberia???
extra-fact, more about I-Eans than Basque question: the 'gedrosia' compared to 'caucasus' component of some runs (same run) shows clearly the very most of 'gedrosia' came from NORTH in Western Europe: clear for Iberia, clear for Italy: so Greeks I-Ean speakers were not too rich for 'gedrosia' even if they had 'caucasus' - in West, 'gedrosia' (and ANE) came with I-Eans: and basque are STILL the sameproblem here: they the richer for 'gedrosia' in Iberia, without any 'caucasus'.
basque language has its proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans: and Basque country are not the center of a BB's area...
my poor head!
a southern route for the supposed first non-I-Ean OR truly I-Ean courageous Y-R1b prospectors seems excluded - I keep nevertheless in mind your supposition concerning mining little groups, waiting more
Click to expand...
 
MOESAN said:
Greying Wanderer said:
There was the long established Atlantic Megalith culture centered on Portugal with branches north to Scandinavia and east into the Med providing a trading link from Sardinia to Sweden. If R1bs were following the neolithic trade network they would have had existing coastal trading settlements to join as a minority. So if they adopted a different language it would seem more likely to me that it would be the language / culture of the Atlantic Megalith people rather than the local HGs.

If correct the distinction between the new arrivals and the Atlantic Megalith people which could potentially lead to R1b founder effects in certain regions could have been groups of them breaking away from the Atlantic Megalith sites to move to copper producing regions like Aldudes* in the Basque country or Ross Island in Ireland.

so theoretical sequence
R1b copper workers (from somewhere) follow the pre-existing neolithic trade routes in all directions
-> as they spread along the trade routes some groups break away to found mining colonies whenever a good new source is found
-> this leads to a localized founder effect in most places it happened but a dramatic one along the Atlantic coast because of the relatively low population density due to acid soil (caused by the leaching effect of heavy rainfall).


very intresting suggestions; I was trying to find out an explication for Y-R1b among Basques, male elite loosing its I-Ean language for the "dominated" one; a male modest group of prospectors accepted at the mergin and marrying locally and loosing their language by time; all the way it doesn' t explain the total overwhelming domination of Y-R1b in West! It could only occur if this vanguard of R1b was arrived earlier tha the others, otherwise they would have kept their I-Ean language, I think;
concerning ores and mining, is Basque country a hotspot in Iberia???
extra-fact, more about I-Eans than Basque question: the 'gedrosia' compared to 'caucasus' component of some runs (same run) shows clearly the very most of 'gedrosia' came from NORTH in Western Europe: clear for Iberia, clear for Italy: so Greeks I-Ean speakers were not too rich for 'gedrosia' even if they had 'caucasus' - in West, 'gedrosia' (and ANE) came with I-Eans: and basque are STILL the sameproblem here: they the richer for 'gedrosia' in Iberia, without any 'caucasus'.
basque language has its proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans: and Basque country are not the center of a BB's area...
my poor head!
a southern route for the supposed first non-I-Ean OR truly I-Ean courageous Y-R1b prospectors seems excluded - I keep nevertheless in mind your supposition concerning mining little groups, waiting more
Click to expand...


It could only occur if this vanguard of R1b was arrived earlier tha the others, otherwise they would have kept their I-Ean language, I think;
Click to expand...

yes, that's the only way I can imagine it happening
concerning ores and mining, is Basque country a hotspot in Iberia???
Click to expand...

from googling, apparently there are some very old mining sites in the western pyrenees including copper from the aldudes valley near a place called Banca

http://www.inrap.fr/preventive-arch...s-Digging-for-copper-iron-gold-and-silver.htm

Research carried out over the last few years has considerably increased our knowledge of mining and metallurgical activities at the extreme western end of the Pyrenees mountain chain. The diversity of Gallo-Roman sites found there is quite remarkable, such as the gold mines around Itxassou, the copper workings at Banca and the silver mines near the ancient city of Oiasso and in Haira Forest. Iron mines with links to farriering activities, such as the major site at Larla, have also been discovered. The mines of the Gallo-Roman period were actually started in the pre-Roman period as attested by Strabo who wrote of the flourishing gold works on the shores of the Bay of Biscay. Archaeological evidence shows that steel production began in the Late Iron Age. Geochemical and palynological studies carried out in a valley of the Western Pyrenees indicate that anthropic activities in the area were responsible for peaks in air pollution at various times in Protohistory. The first peak points to metal production in the first half of the 3rd millennium. Further to the east, in the Aspe Valley, a second peak relating to copper mining can be dated back 5,000 years and constitutes the oldest archaeological evidence available to us in the Pyrenees.
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currently just inside France but part of the Basque country originally i think

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...4m2!3m1!1s0xd50d9d3c97d27a9:0xf67590f5f93b4e0


basque language has its proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans
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That is definitely interesting (and does speak against the theory imo) - it's not that surprising as the Atlantic Megalith sites seem (to me anyway) to show a correlation with mining also (but gold and silver e.g. SW England, S. Wales, Brittany) but I feel my theory would need for Basque to have an IE word for copper even if the rest were non-IE (or two words for copper perhaps).

edit:

and Basque country are not the center of a BB's area...
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Current Basque country true but didn't it used to extend all the way into Cantabria (edit: meant Gascony) with the current Basque country a refuge?

(Having said that I don't know if Gascony has any connection to BB either - but worth mentioning the Basque territory as shrunk a bit in case it's relevant.)

#

more googling, more edits

actually

http://www.buber.net/Basque/Euskara/Larry/metal.names.html

there are no indigenous Basque names recorded for any of tin, copper or bronze. Instead, we find only loan words: <eztainu> `tin', <kobre> `copper', and <brontze> `bronze'.
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But there is no doubt about the native status of <burdina> `iron', <berun> `lead', <urre> `gold', and <zilar> `silver'.
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that helps the theory i think
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I looked at the maps and percentages and I 'm tempted to say:
let's be cautious with upstream and downstream distributions: when a big enough population keeps on unified enough and increases, it gradually produces new SNPs: as a rule the dynamics is: decreasing of older (more upstream) SNP* , the first downstream ones growing the biggest, the too new ones staying little for a time before themselves encreases in number too; the general trend is high %s of intermediary downstream SNPs, and low %s of AND older ones AND newer ones; in this population, the variance of SNPs downstream ligneages is great. At the opposite, when the population stays relatively small, the lucky upstream SNP (the intermediary ones, numerous at the relative level butnot numerous at the absolute level in this case) keeps on being the more numerous, producing few or/and loosing new donwstream SNPs and loosing the few more upstream ones; low variance in SNPs. in very very small populations, for the most a set or a small clan separated from the majority of brethren, everything can occur to one: retain only the more numerous SNP (most often) or at the contrary loose it and favorize a less dense SNP, modest until then; at any case, very low variance.
in the case of Western Europe, we have: highest absolute %s of Y-R1b around Basque Country -(and Western Ireland, Brittany), highest % of whole-S116 in the same places - highest relative % of S116*/whole-S116 (derived) in Western Europe, the most in Ireland and around Basque Country –highest absolute % of DF27 in Basque Country decreasing by distance, but faster in West than in East –
Discussion: a higher % of S116*/whole-S116 could be the signal of population being remained in little number for a while, so possibly having received its Y-R1b from other sources: but the huge and higher absolute % of DF27 and whole-R1b compared to other excludes for me that Basque Country was in debt to an other population for it – the relative % DF27/S116 of Basque Country is strong but not very higher than in Portugal, Andalusia and Madrid, and it is lower among “true” Basques than among “false Basques”! could it signify DF27 came from the periphery or immigrants in Basque Country? It could at the contrary signify that Basques or a population akin to Basques (because the unity overspanning the Pyrenees is evident, and corresponding in some part to Historic links), remained in a small enough number for a while at a S116* level, underwent a “baby boom” (at least concerning male chromosomes) producing after mutations a DF27 dynamic source; the surroundings populations, with less absolute % of DF27 but more relative DF27/S116, are rather the tributary ones to Basque nucleus because transmission(S) of high DF 27-plus low S116* explains the loss of the few S116* - there is a relative continuity in Iberia concerning DF27 and Y-R1b as a whole, spite local variations – at first sight, Galicia, Asturias (0% S116*/whole-S116 and low enough % of DF27/whole-S116) seem having received more variated ligneages of Y-R1b and some of them (U152, U106? …) from other places not around Basque Country, perhaps later? Later and smaller groups without territorial mating continuity: better chances to loose the older SNP, S116*
Madrid sample (if valuable) shows the higher absolute % of DF27 after Basque Country, the second higher relative % DF27/whole-S116 after “false Basques” and a reasonable (middle) loss of relative % S116*/whole-S116: it could check an origin in the surroundings of Basque Country, what would correspond to History: Reconquista, people from peri-Basque places (see castellan phonetics). Places like Catalona, Alicante and Andalusia show some links to Basque genetic Y-DNA evolution but evidently with a more complicated story…Asturias, Galicia and Portugal could have had a globally same story, with a layer of DF27 from Western Pyrenees/Aquitaine areas at first, more in Portugal which shows more DF27/S116 and more S116*/whole-S116(Duro and Tajo rivers?), and different and more recently arrived Y-R1b SNPs in Galicia and Asturias in smaller spotty groups and not by global “contamination” (other Celts, Germanics).
The (possible) explanation of basque Y-DNA situation by the colonization of an almost empty land by a small group is not too evident; Atlantic shores were densely inhabited since a long enough time. So S116*, scarce at first in Western Europe, had already got strength in around France (East at first) and seemingly gave birth to L21/L527 rather in Northwest and to DF27 in Southwest (Aquitaine?). So DF27 is “basque” compared to other Iberian places but was born in a slightly more northern place. The today presence of downstream SNPs of DF27 in far places as Ireland, Britain, North Sea shores, Scandinavia, Baltic shores, Poland and Ukraina does not lead me to search an eastern place of birth to it. If Y-R1b was already present somewhere West during the last Atlantic megalithic times or the plain Atlantic Bronze, these curious geographic distribution could be easily explained, principally by maritime moves. Only an hypothesis at this stage of my picked up knowledge… A try.
All the way I have some difficulties to swallow the dates of coalescence given in this survey, according to my other readings.
 
The (possible) explanation of basque Y-DNA situation by the colonization of an almost empty land by a small group is not too evident; Atlantic shores were densely inhabited since a long enough time.
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Just to stress I'm not suggesting that exactly. As you say the Atlantic Megalith culture was around for a long time along the Atlantic coast. I'm suggesting that if a new group showed up and moved inland to a relatively lightly populated region for a new reason e.g. copper mining, there is the possibility of a dramatic founder effect.

To me the main point is

1) the gap between the western range of LBK and the Atlantic coast
2) the way the gap seems to map onto the Atlantic coast bio-region
3) the Atlantic coast bio-region having acid soil
4) wheat not liking acid soil
5) the epicenters of some of the R1b clades seem to be centered along the Atlantic coast

My thing about copper mining is just one possible explanation. No doubt there are other, maybe better, ones.
 
Greying Wanderer said:
Just to stress I'm not suggesting that exactly. As you say the Atlantic Megalith culture was around for a long time along the Atlantic coast. I'm suggesting that if a new group showed up and moved inland to a relatively lightly populated region for a new reason e.g. copper mining, there is the possibility of a dramatic founder effect.

To me the main point is
1) the gap between the western range of LBK and the Atlantic coast
2) the way the gap seems to map onto the Atlantic coast bio-region
3) the Atlantic coast bio-region having acid soil
4) wheat not liking acid soil
5) the epicenters of some of the R1b clades seem to be centered along the Atlantic coast

My thing about copper mining is just one possible explanation. No doubt there are other, maybe better, ones.
Click to expand...

OK; after all Basques have proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans. And I make general statements concerning ancient demography because even the scholars knowledge is still spotty and insufficient. Just that: it seems megalithic cultures had (globally) a stronger effect upon demography encrease than BB, in some places, even in Germany.
I would be glad knowing the linguistic origin of these metals words...
 
MOESAN said:
OK; after all Basques have proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans. And I make general statements concerning ancient demography because even the scholars knowledge is still spotty and insufficient. Just that: it seems megalithic cultures had (globally) a stronger effect upon demography encrease than BB, in some places, even in Germany.
I would be glad knowing the linguistic origin of these metals words...
Click to expand...

Sure, maybe BB is more correlation than causation. My main point is there are clear and dramatic founder effects along the Atlantic coast which need explaining.
 
MOESAN said:

in the case of Western Europe, we have: highest absolute %s of Y-R1b around Basque Country -(and Western Ireland, Brittany), highest % of whole-S116 in the same places - highest relative % of S116*/whole-S116 (derived) in Western Europe, the most in Ireland and around Basque Country –highest absolute % of DF27 in Basque Country decreasing by distance, but faster in West than in East – Discussion: a higher % of S116*/whole-S116 could be the signal of population being remained in little number for a while, so possibly having received its Y-R1b from other sources: but the huge and higher absolute % of DF27 and whole-R1b compared to other excludes for me that Basque Country was in debt to an other population for it – the relative % DF27/S116 of Basque Country is strong but not very higher than in Portugal, Andalusia and Madrid, and it is lower among “true” Basques than among “false Basques”! could it signify DF27 came from the periphery or immigrants in Basque Country? It could at the contrary signify that Basques or a population akin to Basques (because the unity overspanning the Pyrenees is evident, and corresponding in some part to Historic links), remained in a small enough number for a while at a S116* level, underwent a “baby boom” (at least concerning male chromosomes) producing after mutations a DF27 dynamic source; the surroundings populations, with less absolute % of DF27 but more relative DF27/S116, are rather the tributary ones to Basque nucleus because transmission(S) of high DF 27-plus low S116* explains the loss of the few S116* - there is a relative continuity in Iberia concerning DF27 and Y-R1b as a whole, spite local variations – at first sight, Galicia, Asturias (0% S116*/whole-S116 and low enough % of DF27/whole-S116) seem having received more variated ligneages of Y-R1b and some of them (U152, U106? …) from other places not around Basque Country, perhaps later? Later and smaller groups without territorial mating continuity: better chances to loose the older SNP, S116*
Madrid sample (if valuable) shows the higher absolute % of DF27 after Basque Country, the second higher relative % DF27/whole-S116 after “false Basques” and a reasonable (middle) loss of relative % S116*/whole-S116: it could check an origin in the surroundings of Basque Country, what would correspond to History: Reconquista, people from peri-Basque places (see castellan phonetics). Places like Catalona, Alicante and Andalusia show some links to Basque genetic Y-DNA evolution but evidently with a more complicated story…Asturias, Galicia and Portugal could have had a globally same story, with a layer of DF27 from Western Pyrenees/Aquitaine areas at first, more in Portugal which shows more DF27/S116 and more S116*/whole-S116(Duro and Tajo rivers?), and different and more recently arrived Y-R1b SNPs in Galicia and Asturias in smaller spotty groups and not by global “contamination” (other Celts, Germanics).
The (possible) explanation of basque Y-DNA situation by the colonization of an almost empty land by a small group is not too evident; Atlantic shores were densely inhabited since a long enough time. So S116*, scarce at first in Western Europe, had already got strength in around France (East at first) and seemingly gave birth to L21/L527 rather in Northwest and to DF27 in Southwest (Aquitaine?). So DF27 is “basque” compared to other Iberian places but was born in a slightly more northern place. The today presence of downstream SNPs of DF27 in far places as Ireland, Britain, North Sea shores, Scandinavia, Baltic shores, Poland and Ukraina does not lead me to search an eastern place of birth to it. If Y-R1b was already present somewhere West during the last Atlantic megalithic times or the plain Atlantic Bronze, these curious geographic distribution could be easily explained, principally by maritime moves. Only an hypothesis at this stage of my picked up knowledge… A try. All the way I have some difficulties to swallow the dates of coalescence given in this survey, according to my other readings.
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I sincerely doubt DF27 came or originated from the Atlantic. Its clear form the maps that it had an eastern origin because if it had an Atlantic origin it would show more massive R1b DF-27 in th western side of Iberia.
 
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