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The Ukrainians started to brutalise the civilians in Donbas first, that's the starting point!
There is no justification for torture and mutilation. The only possible, imaginable, justification someone might come up, potentially, is that a person did that too to one of his own. Kind of mirror penalty. The other case might be information, crucial, life saving information in an interrogation. Even these two "justifications" are questionable and being denied by any "Liberal law", human rights, martial law etc.
There is, from my point of view, no other justification at all, for causing, deliberately, pain and suffering on a person, mutilating and hurting it, other than in combat.
This is the other level. Because fighting, even killing, for a concrete, understandable goal, with the force being limited to reach the goal, is a completely different level than deliberateley torturing and mutilating people!
War is war and the Russians didn't do, up to this point, anything which isn't in the limits of military necessity. In a war caused by the actions of the Selenski regime minimum as much as by what Putin did.
If a bomb hits a civilian building, because military targets are close by, its a completely different thing than torturing and mutiliting, deliberately, helpless people!
The barbarism is in torturing and mutilating helpless people for no good reason. There is no justification for that, never.
It was about millions of people and there was no solution. Ukraine didn't even negotiate. You excuse the confrontational policy and the atrocities of the Ukrainian side.You are writing propaganda. Pure and simple. Putin started an illegal war. He is a war criminal.
Putin has displaced MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. The Donbas situation was small by comparison.
Blame the Russians only for what was their fault. The major escalation was their fault and I'm against it. But I do know why they did it and they were pushed to it by the other side.
Provocation is no excuse for an invasion without a declaration of war.
Period.
The alleged Ukrainian atrocities in Donbas are just Kremlin propaganda.
Do you actually believe the deceit of an authoritarian regime that manufactures its own "truth"?
I'd agree in general, but here is the problem: One wrongdoing doesn't negate the other. They are both guilty. Period.
And the "provocation" was suppression of the Russians, of the pro-Russian sphere, persecution and purging, break of the treaties (Minsk I+II), no additional negotiations, just attacks on the Donbas people with the imminent threat of an attack, they already shelled the region. And while this happened, while this war became inevitable, the Ukrainians just provoked and armed up, with the US in the background. That means they attacked the Russians and the time was running in their favour. In a way, the Russians waited too long, because the new arms came in by the day. Militarily and politically, the situation was unbearable.
The Ukrainians were so arrogant and stupid to film some of their torture and mutiliation games. The footage is authentic often enough to make clear with what we're dealing with.
If there would an independent investigation, I'm sure both sides will have their transgressions, but some Ukrainian actions just stick out at the moment, and they really have the gut, the impertinence, the arrogance to publish it with pride. Some of the images being even shown in the Western media by the way, without recognising, without commenting on what the viewer actually sees. Because its about wounded and tortured soldiers, which being obviously pressured to make their "statements" in favour of the Ukraine. Its a disgrace, and only a few Western media pointed it out, that picturing soldiers which being obviously wounded and sometimes tortured that way. Its against the rules in "civilised warfare", but Ukraine did leave that ground from the start and did so in Donbas for quite some time.
The Ukrainians directly threatened the people of Donbas and the allies of Russia, broke the agreements (Minsk II), which they actually never implemented, and refused to negotiate. That's more than provocation and for the "declaration of war" - there was an ongoing war in Donbas, it never stopped, and its not because the Russians didn't try.
The main problem with the major escalation for me is that it hits normal Russians and Ukrainians. If it would only hit the decision makers of the Selenski regime, which are the primary responsible people for this catastrophy, I wouldn't have had any objections, because these are no innocents, they caused the escalation. Unfortunately a lot of good Russian and Ukrainian people get hurt in the process, that's my main problem. I completely understand why Russia did it and its impossible to blame them solely after what the Ukrainian regime did. But its still wrong from a humane perspective and should have been prevented. On the other hand, I can't blame the Russians for not trying, they tried everything and warned for quite some time - to their disadvantage, because all their good and honest efforts being just mocked and declined by the Selenski regime and the USA, while they armed up and prepared for war.
Even people with good will, which try to prevent the inevitable, have their limits. The Ukrainians pushed them over the limit and such a behaviour is unexcusable. They did really everything to push the Russians down and out, including harsh, criminal and unfair measures, which have nothing to do with Democracy and freedom by the way.
You can say Russia is not that nice to its opposition too, but the actions the Ukraine used, against the local Russian population and activists, are no way better and not just take the moral higher ground they might have otherwise had, but they caused the Russian reaction. Should the Russians just have watched and observed what they are doing? How they crash their people and allies, how they build up a force and threat at their South?
If the Ukrainians would have at least tried to negotiate, in a serious manner, it would be all different. But you can't just ignore a neighbour with legitimate interests and prepare for war against its protected minority without consequences. And the atrocities, including mutilation of POW and shelling of civilians, in Donbas are real, they are no fake, and it happened in the last 8 years.
In the end I agree with Biden: this is a butchery.
I'd agree in general, but here is the problem: One wrongdoing doesn't negate the other. They are both guilty. Period.
And the "provocation" was suppression of the Russians, of the pro-Russian sphere, persecution and purging, break of the treaties (Minsk I+II), no additional negotiations, just attacks on the Donbas people with the imminent threat of an attack, they already shelled the region. And while this happened, while this war became inevitable, the Ukrainians just provoked and armed up, with the US in the background. That means they attacked the Russians and the time was running in their favour. In a way, the Russians waited too long, because the new arms came in by the day. Militarily and politically, the situation was unbearable.
The Ukrainians were so arrogant and stupid to film some of their torture and mutiliation games. The footage is authentic often enough to make clear with what we're dealing with.
If there would an independent investigation, I'm sure both sides will have their transgressions, but some Ukrainian actions just stick out at the moment, and they really have the gut, the impertinence, the arrogance to publish it with pride. Some of the images being even shown in the Western media by the way, without recognising, without commenting on what the viewer actually sees. Because its about wounded and tortured soldiers, which being obviously pressured to make their "statements" in favour of the Ukraine. Its a disgrace, and only a few Western media pointed it out, that picturing soldiers which being obviously wounded and sometimes tortured that way. Its against the rules in "civilised warfare", but Ukraine did leave that ground from the start and did so in Donbas for quite some time.
The Ukrainians directly threatened the people of Donbas and the allies of Russia, broke the agreements (Minsk II), which they actually never implemented, and refused to negotiate. That's more than provocation and for the "declaration of war" - there was an ongoing war in Donbas, it never stopped, and its not because the Russians didn't try.
The main problem with the major escalation for me is that it hits normal Russians and Ukrainians. If it would only hit the decision makers of the Selenski regime, which are the primary responsible people for this catastrophy, I wouldn't have had any objections, because these are no innocents, they caused the escalation. Unfortunately a lot of good Russian and Ukrainian people get hurt in the process, that's my main problem. I completely understand why Russia did it and its impossible to blame them solely after what the Ukrainian regime did. But its still wrong from a humane perspective and should have been prevented. On the other hand, I can't blame the Russians for not trying, they tried everything and warned for quite some time - to their disadvantage, because all their good and honest efforts being just mocked and declined by the Selenski regime and the USA, while they armed up and prepared for war.
Even people with good will, which try to prevent the inevitable, have their limits. The Ukrainians pushed them over the limit and such a behaviour is unexcusable. They did really everything to push the Russians down and out, including harsh, criminal and unfair measures, which have nothing to do with Democracy and freedom by the way.
You can say Russia is not that nice to its opposition too, but the actions the Ukraine used, against the local Russian population and activists, are no way better and not just take the moral higher ground they might have otherwise had, but they caused the Russian reaction. Should the Russians just have watched and observed what they are doing? How they crash their people and allies, how they build up a force and threat at their South?
If the Ukrainians would have at least tried to negotiate, in a serious manner, it would be all different. But you can't just ignore a neighbour with legitimate interests and prepare for war against its protected minority without consequences. And the atrocities, including mutilation of POW and shelling of civilians, in Donbas are real, they are no fake, and it happened in the last 8 years.
From my experience Germans support Putin because they hope that - in the future - Russia will help them in dividing Poland.
At least this is what Anthrogenica's German user Rothaer admitted to me, that it is his reason for supporting Putin in this war.
Second reason is that Russia will help Germany become more independent from the USA (Rothaer thinks that Germany is basically under American occupation since 1945).
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The reluctance and sluggishness with which Germany and Olaf Scholz are supposedly "helping" Ukraine indicates, that this is the official line of the German state as well.
From my experience Germans support Putin because they hope that - in the future - Russia will help them in dividing Poland.
At least this is what Anthrogenica's German user Rothaer admitted to me, that it is his reason for supporting Putin in this war.
Second reason is that Russia will help Germany become more independent from the USA (Rothaer thinks that Germany is basically under American occupation since 1945).
=====
The reluctance and sluggishness with which Germany and Olaf Scholz are supposedly "helping" Ukraine indicates, that this is the official line of the German state as well.
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