Ancient DNA from Hungary-Christine Gamba et al

I checked the legend. Annoyingly, they didn't project Stuttgart onto the PCA.

I also forget to post this quote:
Affinities of our observed Y-chromosome lineages (I2 and C6 haplogroups, Table 1) with a Mesolithic background5, 7 and our mtDNA haplogroups with farming communities (especially the N1a haplogroup, Table 1)24 tentatively support the incorporation of local male hunter-gatherers into farming communities during the Central European Neolithic (Table 1), in contrast to the male-dominated diffusion of farmers suggested for the Mediterranean route25.

I don't know if I buy this. Over-interpretation? There's no Y dna for 5 of the Neolithic samples. Plus, one of the I2a is obviously a hunter at the very beginning of the encounter, we don't know the ydna of Koros 2, and we also don't know the ydna of NE 1-4. Also, what do they imagine happened? The H/G men couldn't stand their own women, traveled to southern Europe and stole Neolithic ones who then taught them all about farming? It's not just one brand of mtDna either, although mtDna "K" has a very strong presence.

This is another important quote in light of the tweets about Lazaridis et al:
A third genomic shift occurs around the turn of the first millennium BC. The single Iron Age genome, sampled from the pre-Scythian Mezőcsát Culture (Iron Age (IR1), 830–980 cal BC), shows a distinct shift towards Eastern Eurasian genotypes, specifically in the direction of several Caucasus population samples within the reference data set. This result, supported by mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups (N and G2a1, respectively, both with Asian affinities) suggests genomic influences from the East. This is supported by the archaeological record which indicates increased technological and typological affinities with Steppe cultures at this time, including the importation of horse riding, carts, chariots and metallurgical techniques26. Modern Hungarians occupy an intermediate position between the IR1 and more Western Bronze Age genomes, most likely reflecting the continuation of admixture in the Central European gene pool since this time.

Ed.Ed. I want to be clear that all I'm trying to say about the plotting of IR is that it shouldn't be all that surprising that he plots near "possibly" part Russian/part Armenian samples. Influence from the Caucasus on some Iron Age groups is known. Perhaps the Samarra paper will show that there was some Caucasus like or at least eastern end of the Black Sea farmer influence on Yamnaya. I don't know, but I think we have to let go of all our pre-conceptions, based, perhaps, even unconsciously, on late 19th century formulations of the peopling of Europe.
 
Sigynes lived close to Danube, to the north from Enetians, they had Horses, and they wear Median(Iranic) clothes

http://books.google.gr/books?id=ZuU...r_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Sigynes herodotus&f=false

Could it be that the Cimmerians and the Sigynes are the same?
Herodotus reports of the Cimmerians being expelled by the Scyths, and fleeing across the Caucasus.
But he does not report about Cimmerians fleeing west.
Archeological evidence suggests a group of the same origin settled in the Balkans.
 
Yeah, you're right. I made a mistake. Thanks for correcting me. Somehow I thought that Sauromatians were older than the Cimmerians. But it's actually vice versa! Never came into my mind that the Cimmerians lived around at the same time as Mitanni (proto-Medes). Althought Mitanni (proto-Medes) existed already second millennium BC. But if this is true, than Cimmerians were actually related or even the same as Mitanni, and therefore related to the ancient Medes, or in this case Sauromatians, the Solar Medes. So, what I'm trying to say is that the Cimmerians were basically the same as the Mitanni. But later on Cimmerians became known as the Sauromatians and the Mitanni became known simply as Medes.

Indo-Iranic split into Indic and Iranic, around 2000 BC, probably on the steppe, just east of the Urals. (Andronovo culture)
Indic moved south. They replaced the BMAC culture.
The Mitanni arrived 1500 BC and were Indic.
Cimmerians, Scyths, Saromats were Iranic. They appeared in history later.
 
Angela, y-dna of other samples is not known because those girls never had it. You must have missed their gender :)

C6 is quite intrigue.
 
Indo-Iranic split into Indic and Iranic, around 2000 BC, probably on the steppe, just east of the Urals. (Andronovo culture)
Indic moved south. They replaced the BMAC culture.
The Mitanni arrived 1500 BC and were Indic.
Cimmerians, Scyths, Saromats were Iranic. They appeared in history later.
BMAC was an East-Iranic culture. Indic culture NEVER replaced East-Iranic culture in South-Central Asia!

No, it's a misconception that Mitanni were Indic. This is pure propaganda. Mitanni were actually proto-Iranic and were descendants of the Sumerians. Later, the Mitanni in Kurdistan became known as the Medes. Like the Sumerians they were the 'Sun' worshippers. I have still that native Iranic religion, and I'm still the 'Sun' worshipper to. We call our God, Xode Shems (Ezide Sor), translated: the Sun God. Mitanni were native to the Iranian Plateau. 1 part stayed in Kurdistan and became the Medes, while the other part went to the South-Central Asia and became 'East Iranic' and then invaded Northern India and mixed with the Dravidians.
 
We don't know if the y dna of the two samples, K01 and K02, are the same.
Koros 1: I2a subclade unknown
Koros 2: Y dna unknown

KO2 is a female. So no Y-DNA.

What we do know is that Koros 1 looks like a Mesolithic hunter/fisher-gatherer. I'm leaning toward LeBrok's speculation that he was either a hunter-gatherer trying to learn how to farm, or a local absorbed into a very early attempt at settlement by Neolithic farmers. Koros2 is a very southward plotting Neolithic farmer. He looks to me like an example of what these people were like when they first arrived.

Also, take a look at the dates:
Koros 1:5,650–5,780
Koros 2: 5,570–5,710

They're also two different sites.

Yes, hardly conclusive proof. However, these were people from the same Kőrös culture, a culture sprouting at the fringes of a major neolithic culture positively associated with migration, the Starčevo culture.

The rest of the Neolithic samples are from a later time period. Enough time to have absorbed a little hunter gatherer. However, it's not as much as was absorbed apparently by the farmers in the west, because quite a few of them plot south of Otzi.

Exactly my point. However, KO2 plots the most south of them all. Distinctly so even. Maybe that Kőrös culture is one of these mixture cultures. Remember we talked about that before? I think this fits the idea.

Or maybe it was just a little bit over the centuries? Otzi and the Copper Age sample from this study plot at about the same latitude don't they? Also, can anybody find Stuttgart on there? Even my bifocals aren't working that well. :)

Oh, and of the NE 1-7, two of them are C6, and 1 is I2a, but who knows of what variety. Four of them are missing Y dna.
 
The linguistic (and ethnic) affiliation of the Huns is a matter that has to my knowledge gone back and forth, mainly due to the scarcity of data. I agree that a Scytho-Sarmatian language is a very real possibility (these languages dominated a large swath of Eurasia for centuries, after all), but so is - in my opinion - Turkic. We don't even know for certain if the Xiongnu of Chinese sources are even the same as the Huns that show up a bit later in Western sources.

What is clear about the Slavs, and I agree unanimously here with LeBrok, is that their language is not one of invaders from the steppe.

At the times of the Huns there wasn't yet a language or people known as Turkic. Huns were basically a confederation of Scythian and Mongolian tribes and might have give birth to the first Turkic speakers. The Huns might have give birth to the Turkic speakers. But they weren't Turkic themselves yet.
 
BMAC was an East-Iranic culture. Indic culture NEVER replaced East-Iranic culture in South-Central Asia!

No it's a misconception that Mitanni were Indic. This is pure propaganda. Mitanni were actually proto-Iranic and were descendants of the Sumerians. Later, the Mitanni in Kurdistan became known as the Medes. Like the Sumerians they were the 'Sun' worshippers. I have still that native Iranic religion, and I'm still the 'Sun' worshipper to. We call our God, Xode Shems (Ezide Sor), translated: the Sun God. Mitanni were native to the Iranian Plateau. 1 part went to the West and became the Medes, while the other part went to the South-Central Asia and became 'East Iranic' and then invaded Northern India and mixed with the Dravidians.
But I never realized that the Cimmerians were almost as old as the Mitanni and therefore much older than the East Iranic tribes, like the East Iranic Scythians (aka Saka) in the Pontic-Caspian Steppes!
 
It is also possible that J2a migrated into the Pontic Caspian Steppes together with the R1a* and NOT R1b* at all!
But it's also possible that J2a came into Europe with the 'Iranic' people. Because Iranic people sometimes invaded Europe. Think about the Alanians. J2a in Europe can be from the Massagetae (proto-Alanians) or even the Medes (Mitanni) or simply the Sauromatians, the Solar Medes…


The sample is from Bronze Age. The Indo Europeans hadn't yet evolved into different groups.
 
I remember that somewhere on Dienekes' site there is a thread(s) which discusses the fact that a few Armenians plot pretty far away from the mass of Armenians, and there was some speculation that perhaps it was because of Russian admixture. (I just spent a half hour trying to find it, but I couldn't. If I have time later, I'll try again.) I'm just suggesting that those may be the few Armenians among whom IR plots. If you look closely at the mass of samples in the Near East you'll find that most of the Armenians plot down there somewhere around eastern Turkey, which makes sense.)

However, given the tweets from Razib Khan about the upcoming Lazaridis paper on Samarra, I don't see why the fact that IR plots near a "possibly" mixed Armenian/Russian sample is either surprising or upsetting.
#ASHG14 eastern hg from Karelia and sammara. ANE related to Eastern hg. yamnaya had near East and Caucasus
#ASHG14 ANE in Europe from eastern hg groups? (via yamnaya)
#ASHG14 yamnaya better source for intrusive group into north Europe late Neolithic bronze age
#ASHG14 corded ware 36% nonlocal ancestry. Karelian. low bound
#ASHG14 yamnaya modeled as 50/50 Armenian Karelian. corded ware 75% yamnaya
#ASHG14 yamnaya % peaks in north Europe. lower in south Europe. lowest in Sardinia
#ASHG14 yamnaya = proto-indoeuropean

Well, I could speculate that maybe the idea that Yamnaya people were half "Armenian like" is anathema on "racial" grounds to some people, in addition to falsifying years of opinions and conclusions about the nature of the "Indo-Europeans". I don't like to think that's the case, however. Maybe that's just rumor mongering too. I'm told there is now a mad scramble to analyze his data. Of course, I don't know what he'll turn out to be...I'm willing to wait for analyses to be done, and I have no personal stake in the outcome. Anyway, I'm not going to get into speculating based on fragmentary results or rumors posted by people on other sites. I had enough of that. I'll wait for the paper. All I'm saying is that the plotting of IR shouldn't be a total surprise.

I don't think we can make any judgments about the I2a or the C6 because the subclades aren't resolved enough for either the Mesolithic samples or the ones under discussion. We don't even know if all the I2a in these samples is the same one.



We don't know if the y dna of the two samples, K01 and K02, are the same.
Koros 1: I2a subclade unknown
Koros 2: Y dna unknown

What we do know is that Koros 1 looks like a Mesolithic hunter/fisher-gatherer. I'm leaning toward LeBrok's speculation that he was either a hunter-gatherer trying to learn how to farm, or a local absorbed into a very early attempt at settlement by Neolithic farmers. Koros2 is a very southward plotting Neolithic farmer. He looks to me like an example of what these people were like when they first arrived.

Also, take a look at the dates:
Koros 1:5,650–5,780
Koros 2: 5,570–5,710

They're also two different sites.

The rest of the Neolithic samples are from a later time period. Enough time to have absorbed a little hunter gatherer. However, it's not as much as was absorbed apparently by the farmers in the west, because quite a few of them plot south of Otzi. Or maybe it was just a little bit over the centuries? Otzi and the Copper Age sample from this study plot at about the same latitude don't they? Also, can anybody find Stuttgart on there? Even my bifocals aren't working that well. :)

Oh, and of the NE 1-7, two of them are C6, and 1 is I2a, but who knows of what variety. Four of them are missing Y dna.

How about BR2 - Y DNA J2a1?
Wouldn't you expect such a haplogroup somewhere in the Near East on the PCA chart?
No he is not, he is somewhere in France - Italy - Spain.
 
I remember that somewhere on Dienekes' site there is a thread(s) which discusses the fact that a few Armenians plot pretty far away from the mass of Armenians, and there was some speculation that perhaps it was because of Russian admixture. (I just spent a half hour trying to find it, but I couldn't. If I have time later, I'll try again.) I'm just suggesting that those may be the few Armenians among whom IR plots. If you look closely at the mass of samples in the Near East you'll find that most of the Armenians plot down there somewhere around eastern Turkey, which makes sense.)

Exactly I saw and red the same. Those few Armenian samples were out of the mass and were probably mixed. They ended up among North Caucasians.
 
The sample is from Bronze Age. The Indo Europeans hadn't yet evolved into different groups.
This is what it is saying: "Individual BR2, L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture (1,110–1,270 BC) = Y-Haplogroup J2a1". At that time (around 1250 BC) even the West Iranian people were fully evolved. Same time when the Mitanni became the Medes in Kurdistan.
 
The Mitanni arrived 1500 BC and were Indic.

Thats not an accepted fact but more of a good theory. The Mitanni Elite spoke a very archaic Indo_Iranic dialct which tended more towards the Indo_Aryan group but can simply be explained with the fact that Proto Indo_Iranic would come closer to Indo_Aryan because Indo_Aryan has obtained much more archaic features like Lithuanian.

So the more archaic the Indo_iranic language is, the more it will tend towards Indo_Aryan, because IndoAryans has preserved itself better.
 
This is what it is saying: "Individual BR2, L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture (1,110–1,270 BC) = Y-Haplogroup J2a1". At that time (around 1250 BC) even the West Iranian people were fully evolved. Same time when the Mitanni became the Medes in Kurdistan.


OK but it is unlikely that the Medes had yet reached any part of this area if even Scythians weren't yet there.
 
OK but it is unlikely that the Medes had yet reached any part of this area if even Scythians weren't yet there.
No, not the Medes, but the relatives of the Mitanni reached that part of the area (Hungary?) . Cimmerians can be older than the Medes, and if this true then the Cimmerians actually could be closely related to the Mitanni. That's why I'm saying that the Cimmerians could evolve into the Saomartians and the Mitanni simply evolved into the Medes. That also explains why there are many links between Saomartians (Solar Medes) and the Medes, simply because they share the same ancestors (Cimmerians/Mitanni)!
 
No, not the Medes, but the relatives of the Mitanni reached that part of the area (Hungary?) . Cimmerians can be older than the Medes, and if this true then the Cimmerians actually could be closely related to the Mitanni. That's why I'm saying that the Cimmerians could evolve into Saomartians and the Mitanni simply evolved into the Medes. That also explains why there are many links between Saomartians (Solar Medes) and the Medes, simply because they share the same ancestors (Cimmerians/Mitanni)!

Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes, Cimmerians etc they all share same ancestors. The question is how far back those ancestors go. And it is hard to tell and we can only speculate.
 
Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes, Cimmerians etc they all share same ancestors. The question is how far back those ancestors go. And it is hard to tell and we can only speculate.
From what I learned today is that the Cimmerians are OLDER than Scythians (East Iranians) and the Medes (West Iranians). Cimmerians lived almost at the same times as Mitanni!; before the Medes, Saomartians, Scythians (Saka) etc.
 

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