Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

For those of you who may be interested in breaking free of CIA-fed media hysterics, I suggest Consortium News, in particular the video series on the Ukraine crisis hosted by Joe Lauria. Mr Lauria is a longtime UN correspondent, writing for numerous papers over the years, and I daresay a credit to Italian-Americans everywhere.

https://consortiumnews.com/tag/joe-lauria/


WTF does "and I daresay a credit to Italian-Americans everywhere even mean"? This is 2021, do we have to use this person is a credit to this group or that group.
 
I am actually too disgusted with Biden to discuss him and that goes far beyond his politics.
But I will say this much:
This didn't happen under Trump's watch.
Isn't a big part of this discussion what next step The Oval Office can take to end this?

Trump described the Russian invaders as liberators of the Ukrainian people in his first reaction.
For whatever reason he said this, it's disgusting.
 
@Palermo -- that was my reply to this comment ==

I'm 99% sure this is a sock acccount and you're not Italian, which is a small consolation. Unfortunately, you are probably American.

What a disgrace.

a delayed response, but it's a dish best served cold
 
Is there a man among the Russian circles of power that has both the foresight and the guts? The oligarchs are losing a lot of money.

I guess some oligarchs want Putin removed, but only to replace him by another dictator who can guarantee the status-quo in Russia.
I think this is the most likely outcome if Ukrainiens resist Russia long enough to get Putin discredited in his own entourage.
 
I guess some oligarchs want Putin removed, but only to replace him by another dictator who can guarantee the status-quo in Russia.
I think this is the most likely outcome if Ukrainiens resist Russia long enough to get Putin discredited in his own entourage.

the idea that Putin is a dictator supported by a small entourage is laughable. First, he is not a dictator. He was lasted elected by a 56% vote. Dictators are not so elected. He has great powers, but is in fact constrained by the massive bureaucracy that operates beneath him. Second, the decision to invade Ukraine is the result of some 20 years of close, deliberate planning throughout the Russian state. They have all their ducks in a row.
 
Trump described the Russian invaders as liberators of the Ukrainian people in his first reaction.
For whatever reason he said this, it's disgusting.

Are you sure that Trump said that?
 
Trump described the Russian invaders as liberators of the Ukrainian people in his first reaction.
For whatever reason he said this, it's disgusting.

I doubt Trump said this. And let me clarify, I am not a Trump fanboy. My expectation is he would toe the conventional Republican line on Ukraine in any comments he might make. He has long since ceased to be the outsider candidate of 2016. But if I'm wrong, show me the quote.

When I say the conventional Republican line, I mean that almost all Republican criticism of Biden's policy has been that it has *not* been tough enough on Russia. In other words, it's pseudo criticism, so-called "criticism" that is completely bought and paid for by military-industrial complex
 
@Palermo -- that was my reply to this comment ==



a delayed response, but it's a dish best served cold

Well I still disagree with the comment. Bad Taste in my opinion to go with the you are a credit to your "Religion", "Ethnicity", "Race", etc, etc. type talk. But to be fair, I too question whether you have any Italian ancestry. On the political front, I am still trying to figure out your political leanings. I gleam some right of center yes, but almost Rand Paul foreign policy regarding Russia who was with Bernie Sanders the only Senator to not support sanctions on Russia and Iran in 2017 (Strange alliance there), and he was 1 of only 2 Senators to not give a vote in support of NATO in 2018 and he went to Russia that same year to meet with Russian politicians to try and engage Russia. I know he was a staunch opponent of any move to give Ukraine NATO status.
 
@Palermo -- Although I have not made anywhere near the number or quality of contributions that you make to this forum (in fact when you first appeared here, I complimented you on the high quality of your contributions), I've frequented this site for about 4, maybe 5 years now. That's quite a bit of time to invest pretending to be half Calabrian, albeit most of my "time" has been silent reading of threads.

I consider myself a patriot & a nationalist, which also means anti-globalist & anti-imperialist. My practical politics lean toward populism, but as a theoretical matter I recognize the importance of a benevolent & far-sighted elite. I voted for Obama in 2008, Trump in 2016, and abstained from voting in all other presidential elections. In terms of international politics, I am a great believer in balance-of-power realism. This is why I despair of our policy with regard to Russia, even if the nationalist in me is sympathetic to Ukrainian aspirations for self-determination and sovereignty.
 
@Palermo -- and I also believe in honor -- which is why I utterly horrified by how dishonorable our country has become -- the sheer cynicism of policy in Urkraine, serving the people of the Ukraine up for slaughter to achieve the objectives of our idiotic anti-Russia policy
 
Well I still disagree with the comment. Bad Taste in my opinion to go with the you are a credit to your "Religion", "Ethnicity", "Race", etc, etc. type talk.

It was meant as a joke, I guess you couldn't tell from my initial reply to your criticism. (That is, I'm a "disgrace" to Italians & Americans, so I said that Joe Laurie, a man who shares my views, is a "credit" -- but whatever)

Unlike Zelenskyy, I'm not much of a comedian.
 
Last post, as I don't want to actually take over the thread, merely trying to hold the line. But I just came across this excellent article from Ron Paul Institute (and no, Palermo, I ain't no libertarian, it's just that sometimes they get it right) --->


Washington's Crocodile Tears Over Ukraine's Destruction

written by daniel mcadams

friday february 25, 2022



As of this writing, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky is hunkered down in his bunker somewhere in Kiev, as the sound of the encroaching war gets closer and closer. A grim scene, to be sure.

All the US and EU kisses and roses leading up to this end have turned to dust and barbed wire, as a no-doubt deeply bitter Zelensky has nothing left but to cry out in anger.


The chips are down, as much of the US-equipped and backed Ukrainian military appears to have turned and ran as Russian forces approached. That is not to say that there has not been death and destruction on both sides. The battle for Kherson was brutal, with plenty of Russian losses. But nevertheless, as of this writing, it has fallen to Russian control.

Kiev in the main may well fall within the next 12-24 hours. Russian troops are already in the city. And Zelensky is in his bunker with fewer and fewer to take his calls. The cavalry he believed was promised him will not be coming to rescue him. Ukraine will be de-militarized and Ukraine will be neutral. Once held up as a great ally of Washington and Brussels, Zelensky is alone.

It brings to mind that great quote I often recycle from RPI academic advisor John Laughland, written as the early US-backed color revolutions rampaged through the former Soviet world in the early 2000s:
It is better to be an enemy of the Americans than their friend. If you are their enemy, they might try to buy you; but if you are their friend they will definitely sell you.​
Zelensky has now learned the bitter truth, which previously favored foreign leaders also learned. Most of their lessons have been even harder than Zelensky's (at least to this point).

The bitter truth is that Washington's foreign policy establishment never actually considered Zelensky - or his predecessor Poroshenko - to be allies or partners of the United States. Overflowing with a toxic mix of ignorance, arrogance, and extreme cynicism, Washington's elites have always viewed Ukraine as a tool to "regime-change" a Russia that, after its post-Yeltsin recovery, would no longer take its direction from them.

The false gods of American exceptionalism are jealous ones indeed.

The American foreign policy establishment wanted a perpetual "Yanks to the Rescue" Russia, whereby US "consultants" and spooks would ensure that the most obsequious candidate would continue to win and rule. A string of Russian presidents who would, à la Shevardnadze and a whole string of other post-Soviet leaders, run the country like a family business: lots of biznis deals for family members...and maybe 10 percent for the "big guy."

Americans are victims (willing or not) of a mass media system as propagandistic as any that existed during Soviet Communism. The "party line" is established and it is unwaveringly followed whether the favored flavor is Fox or MSNBC. When it became obvious that Yeltsin's one-time understudy, Vladimir Putin, wasn't going to play that way, the party line came down that he must be demonized.

Not carefully studied and where appropriate opposed (on the basis of actual US interests), but rather Putin had to be demonized and, ultimately, "regime-changed."

Discourse in the US is so infantile that just writing this objective truth will no doubt land this author in the "Putin's puppet" purgatory. Not for the first time.

Most Americans will not have heard - and those who have likely do not care - that twice when the Ukrainian people elected a president who was in favor of maintaining good relations with its Russian neighbor the US intervened and overthrew the government. First time in the 2004-5 "Orange Revolution" and then the fateful 2014 "Maidan" revolt, which was explicitly and overtly supported by senior US government officials on the ground in Kiev including Victoria Nuland and the late neocon warmonger Sen. John McCain.

In the meantime tens of millions of dollars flow from the US taxpayer to favored think tanks, civic organizations, and media outlets via the National Endowment for Democracy (sic) and numerous US-funded related organizations. The goal is the same: manipulate Ukraine so that it remains on Washington's preferred path (toward conflict with Russia).

It is fashionable - particularly over the past two days - for even antiwar and "restraint"-promoting scribblers and jaw-boners to fall into tune with the warmongers' songbook of "Russian aggression" as the sole cause of recent bloodshed and destruction.

While anyone with an ounce of decency deeply regrets and opposes the use of such massive military force as we have seen recently in Ukraine, if there is one lesson to be learned from this entire miserable chapter (and by "chapter" I mean the entirety of post-Cold War US foreign policy) it is this: There are consequences that come with the belief that the key to peace and prosperity is to remake the world in your own image through the use of overt and covert, violent and non-violent means. That lesson should have been learned with the fall of Soviet communism itself, but the "victors" were too full of hubris to pause for a moment of humility.

Wishing reality was one thing and accepting that it is another are two very different things. The distinction must be made or the mass mental illness of "American exceptionalism" can never be cured. Otherwise the consequences next time the tectonic plates shift may be far closer to home.

Whether America and the EU like it or not, the era of ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality" is well and truly over. Its end is not to be mourned but to be celebrated. The only pro-America foreign policy is non-intervention in the affairs of others.

Ukrainian President Zelensky is unlikely to survive his turn being America's cat's paw to wrong-foot Russia. While he sits in his bunker contemplating his fate, he may well be visited by the ghosts of Saddam and Gaddafi and all those who preceded him in this position. God help him.



 
While anyone with an ounce of decency deeply regrets and opposes the use of such massive military force as we have seen recently in Ukraine


One quibble -- I think evidence will show that Russians have acted with considerable restraint, at least so far. Compare America in Iraq.

Ok. I've said my piece. Now to sleep.​
 
As Angela points out, I don't know what it means to be in a former-communist country...

However, a war for the Free world? People in the United States feel like they are losing their own freedom, because aggression from our own woke government to silence dissent. The Biden administration outsources it's authoritarianism to big tech, banks, etc. Yes, we are free to choose the wrong thoughts, and suffer consequences for it.

I think the crux is in the first comment. You only miss it when it's gone. Just like we take tap water for granted.....until.


The US has never experienced occupation by any other power. In Europe this was by the NAZIs (Germany) and/or the Commies. In Western Europe, the generation up to about 1975, still shared the experiences of their parents about the NAZI occupation. In Central Eastern Europe, the history of the communist era is much longer. The generation born around 1990 is the first to no longer have active memories, and they are now having children.


And personally I find a comparison between the 'woke aggression of our government' and the aggression of Putin from of an entirely different order. Apples and oranges. And in my view is also a total disregard for what is at stake in the Ukraine. Not to offend you, not at all, but I don't agree with your view c.q. supposed of much US citizens...


In the West we have to realize what it is like to live under repression without self-determination, free press, free speech, etc. I have the idea that that message has at least got through in Europe.


By the way, for a good understanding of Putin's agenda, I can recommend everyone to read Aleksandr Dugin's works (just read his fourth political theory, but it seems that Last War of the World-Island: The Geopolitics of Contemporary Russia is even more spot on for what we are seeing. His works really laid on Putin's bedside table. Rhetoric, intentions and the political (ideological) agenda are crystal clear. be awake ;)
 
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Last post, as I don't want to actually take over the thread, merely trying to hold the line. But I just came across this excellent article from Ron Paul Institute (and no, Palermo, I ain't no libertarian, it's just that sometimes they get it right) --->


Washington's Crocodile Tears Over Ukraine's Destruction

written by daniel mcadams

friday february 25, 2022



As of this writing, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky is hunkered down in his bunker somewhere in Kiev, as the sound of the encroaching war gets closer and closer. A grim scene, to be sure.

All the US and EU kisses and roses leading up to this end have turned to dust and barbed wire, as a no-doubt deeply bitter Zelensky has nothing left but to cry out in anger.


The chips are down, as much of the US-equipped and backed Ukrainian military appears to have turned and ran as Russian forces approached. That is not to say that there has not been death and destruction on both sides. The battle for Kherson was brutal, with plenty of Russian losses. But nevertheless, as of this writing, it has fallen to Russian control.

Kiev in the main may well fall within the next 12-24 hours. Russian troops are already in the city. And Zelensky is in his bunker with fewer and fewer to take his calls. The cavalry he believed was promised him will not be coming to rescue him. Ukraine will be de-militarized and Ukraine will be neutral. Once held up as a great ally of Washington and Brussels, Zelensky is alone.

It brings to mind that great quote I often recycle from RPI academic advisor John Laughland, written as the early US-backed color revolutions rampaged through the former Soviet world in the early 2000s:
It is better to be an enemy of the Americans than their friend. If you are their enemy, they might try to buy you; but if you are their friend they will definitely sell you.​
Zelensky has now learned the bitter truth, which previously favored foreign leaders also learned. Most of their lessons have been even harder than Zelensky's (at least to this point).

The bitter truth is that Washington's foreign policy establishment never actually considered Zelensky - or his predecessor Poroshenko - to be allies or partners of the United States. Overflowing with a toxic mix of ignorance, arrogance, and extreme cynicism, Washington's elites have always viewed Ukraine as a tool to "regime-change" a Russia that, after its post-Yeltsin recovery, would no longer take its direction from them.

The false gods of American exceptionalism are jealous ones indeed.

The American foreign policy establishment wanted a perpetual "Yanks to the Rescue" Russia, whereby US "consultants" and spooks would ensure that the most obsequious candidate would continue to win and rule. A string of Russian presidents who would, à la Shevardnadze and a whole string of other post-Soviet leaders, run the country like a family business: lots of biznis deals for family members...and maybe 10 percent for the "big guy."

Americans are victims (willing or not) of a mass media system as propagandistic as any that existed during Soviet Communism. The "party line" is established and it is unwaveringly followed whether the favored flavor is Fox or MSNBC. When it became obvious that Yeltsin's one-time understudy, Vladimir Putin, wasn't going to play that way, the party line came down that he must be demonized.

Not carefully studied and where appropriate opposed (on the basis of actual US interests), but rather Putin had to be demonized and, ultimately, "regime-changed."

Discourse in the US is so infantile that just writing this objective truth will no doubt land this author in the "Putin's puppet" purgatory. Not for the first time.

Most Americans will not have heard - and those who have likely do not care - that twice when the Ukrainian people elected a president who was in favor of maintaining good relations with its Russian neighbor the US intervened and overthrew the government. First time in the 2004-5 "Orange Revolution" and then the fateful 2014 "Maidan" revolt, which was explicitly and overtly supported by senior US government officials on the ground in Kiev including Victoria Nuland and the late neocon warmonger Sen. John McCain.

In the meantime tens of millions of dollars flow from the US taxpayer to favored think tanks, civic organizations, and media outlets via the National Endowment for Democracy (sic) and numerous US-funded related organizations. The goal is the same: manipulate Ukraine so that it remains on Washington's preferred path (toward conflict with Russia).

It is fashionable - particularly over the past two days - for even antiwar and "restraint"-promoting scribblers and jaw-boners to fall into tune with the warmongers' songbook of "Russian aggression" as the sole cause of recent bloodshed and destruction.

While anyone with an ounce of decency deeply regrets and opposes the use of such massive military force as we have seen recently in Ukraine, if there is one lesson to be learned from this entire miserable chapter (and by "chapter" I mean the entirety of post-Cold War US foreign policy) it is this: There are consequences that come with the belief that the key to peace and prosperity is to remake the world in your own image through the use of overt and covert, violent and non-violent means. That lesson should have been learned with the fall of Soviet communism itself, but the "victors" were too full of hubris to pause for a moment of humility.

Wishing reality was one thing and accepting that it is another are two very different things. The distinction must be made or the mass mental illness of "American exceptionalism" can never be cured. Otherwise the consequences next time the tectonic plates shift may be far closer to home.

Whether America and the EU like it or not, the era of ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality" is well and truly over. Its end is not to be mourned but to be celebrated. The only pro-America foreign policy is non-intervention in the affairs of others.

Ukrainian President Zelensky is unlikely to survive his turn being America's cat's paw to wrong-foot Russia. While he sits in his bunker contemplating his fate, he may well be visited by the ghosts of Saddam and Gaddafi and all those who preceded him in this position. God help him.




Are you a Russian bot?

What a load of Putinist propaganda.:LOL::LOL:
 
@Palermo -- Although I have not made anywhere near the number or quality of contributions that you make to this forum (in fact when you first appeared here, I complimented you on the high quality of your contributions), I've frequented this site for about 4, maybe 5 years now. That's quite a bit of time to invest pretending to be half Calabrian, albeit most of my "time" has been silent reading of threads.

I consider myself a patriot & a nationalist, which also means anti-globalist & anti-imperialist. My practical politics lean toward populism, but as a theoretical matter I recognize the importance of a benevolent & far-sighted elite. I voted for Obama in 2008, Trump in 2016, and abstained from voting in all other presidential elections. In terms of international politics, I am a great believer in balance-of-power realism. This is why I despair of our policy with regard to Russia, even if the nationalist in me is sympathetic to Ukrainian aspirations for self-determination and sovereignty.

Clear story and stance Malaparte. The more different (qualified) voices on this forum the better. I disagree with you about the 'ability' of the US to stay an outsider in this conflict.

First of all the entanglement is big: what happens in the Ukraine also effect domestic USA and vice versa. To give an example. The former president of the US has most probably put pressure on Zelenski to deliver some dirty story's about Biden jr who seems to be active in the Ukraine. This even has lead to a set up of impeachment. SO how interacted can it be. It's not like living on mars or venus.

Secondly since WW2 the West of Europe lives under a Pax Americana. That was liberal in politics and economics. It brought us peace, prosperity and a prolongation (and sometimes introduce like in Spain) of democracy. The NATO was the defender of this all. After the fall of the wall this all loosened up. Some former communist countries became part of it. And (now naive of course) it was thought that through trade etc even Russia would be part of the liberal world. The Ukrainians have self chosen to be a part of Europe, the West and are even longing for NATO.

I know the dilemma no one is waiting for ww3 a direct confrontation NATO and Russia.

Nevertheless the last thing we in Europe and especially in this crisis imo need is an USA who isolates itself from Europe or even more thinks Ukraine not of our interest or 'give it to' Putin....thanks for choosing for the West and goodbye.
 
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What a strange world. For more than 2 years we had a pandemic that claimed between 5 and 6 million lives on the entire planet of 7 billion+/-. The in some areas name calling people mRNA anti- vaxxer and had protests to mandated lockdowns, mandated facemasks, mandated mRNA vaccines passports(not all countries or states like Sweden Texas Florida)Now we have so many people crossing U S southern border refugees and so many crossing Ukraine border refugees, but no word on vaccine status, QR passport, face mask, social distancing and or mutated covid PCR testing.
 
Supposedly 5000 Russian soldiers in the town of Belgorod (near the border of Ukraine) disobey orders and refuse to invade Ukraine:

https://www-onet-pl.translate.goog/...,79cfc278?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl

The soldiers explain - "there is no such a clause [about invading Ukraine] in our contracts" / remember, they also get paid in rubble

^^^
Where are NKVD barrier troops when Putin needs them?!

Yes for the contractors especially this is not 'their' war. Most of Russians are very poor, so a contract in the army is what it is to get some money. This is the war of the 'upper oligarch' not from the commoner....
 
^^^
But also it can be mentioned, that this Belgorod area has a large ethnically Ukrainian population.

If you go on GEDmatch, the Ukrainian_Belgorod reference in Eurogenes calculators is from there.

People listen to Putin's propaganda about Russian minority in Ukraine and forget that large areas of Russia also have ethnic Ukrainians.
 

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