Angela
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In post number 30, you can see that what they label I1a2b4~ has a calibrated date which is quite a bit younger.
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Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history
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In post number 30, you can see that what they label I1a2b4~ has a calibrated date which is quite a bit younger.
Regio X
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Oh! I see now Maciamo mentioned the uncal. Thanks. That changes things.
So both time of formation and TMRCA fit the YFull interval. The I1 MRCA must have lived between ~400 and 1050 years before Cx161 then. The lower limit would be related to a minimum of I1 extra mutations in relation to Cx161, while 1050 would come from the upper limit of 5100 in the CI 95% for I1 TMRCA and also from the range 4300-4050 for the sample.
Angela
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So do I.
In Table S1 they list all the samples by date and culture and location. All the Iron Age samples are labeled La Tene, and they cover the north, east, and south (Occitane).
Unfortunately, they don't put the mtDna, or yDna, for that matter, on the same sheet. That information isn't even given for all the samples, and it's scattered throughout the Tables. We'd have to take the sample names from the chart and hunt the information through the Tables.
Given that the data is missing for a whole set of Beakers, as I mentioned upthread, it's difficult to know whether the change in R1b is significant.
It looks to me as if there was probably a movement of new people into France. Whether they brought a different type of Indo-European is another issue.
I'm pretty sure it's all the same replacement from macro group R1b-M269. I wouldn't read much further into it than that. Recall the very early intrusion of R1b-M269/L151 in Switzerland Neolithic burial who looks similar to Corded Ware. These could have all been layered tribes, but frankly, at the end of the day, it's the same group of men, just close cousins of one another.
Hawk
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What's here to be strange?
It's a clinal similarity in the Balkans. Albanians are more Western Balkans shifted than Bulgarians.
Bwy, i know you guys despise us and want our homeland to make as far away as Baikal if u can because of political reasons. But, reality is different.
P.S Let's see if those E1b1b samples are E-V13 instead, that would be quite interesting.
bicicleur 2
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did you all check the spreadsheets sd10 & sd11 with markers for Y-DNA, capture & shotgun?
for capture they use recent ISOGG codes, for shotgun older ISOGG codes
very confusing
for capture they use recent ISOGG codes, for shotgun older ISOGG codes
very confusing
bigsnake49
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Don't look for ulterior motives.I am not surprised at the overlap with the Greeks, I am surprised at the closeness with the Bulgarians. I guess I should not be surprised if the Bulgarians were just an warrior band that then imposed their civilization and language on the more numerous local Thracians.
Regio X
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There are three G-L497s in the sheet S11 (but not in the sheet S01).
Indeed. I hadn't checked the sheets you mentioned. In S01, for example, PIR3037AB shows up as R1b1a1a2, while in S11 it shows up as R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a5c3c1. It makes no sense using two different versions of ISOGG tree.
I wonder if in the graph I posted those Bell Beakers with "I" IDs are assigned with the old codes while BA are assigned with the new. Likely. So it'd a mix in the same graph. Jesus!
@Bicicleur
Indeed. I hadn't checked the sheets you mentioned. In S01, for example, PIR3037AB shows up as R1b1a1a2, while in S11 it shows up as R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a5c3c1. It makes no sense using two different versions of ISOGG tree.
I wonder if in the graph I posted those Bell Beakers with "I" IDs are assigned with the old codes while BA are assigned with the new. Likely. So it'd a mix in the same graph. Jesus!
Hawk
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The Bulgarians and Slavs didn't meet the Thracians on their best, they very heavily devastated by the Justinian Plague, it's well noted that after that pandemic the Arabs had the luck to create an Empire and Slavs, Bulgarians and various people from the North/East to migrate in the Balkans.
Angela
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I think that's exactly the case. Their genetic impact would have been very small, as happened with a similar situation in Hungary.
Angela
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So, could you list the yDna for Beaker, Bronze and Iron? Is it a different yDna for each group in terms of predominant averages? With cultures so extremely patriarchal at least up to the Iron Age, I think it matters.
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I'll try when I find a time. My guess is that those Bell Beakers with "I" ids are also R1b-M269 after all. We'll see.
Interesting how this study proves once again what humans go around and expand successfully, its bands of men closing ranks and replacing others if possible. Logical, but now proven ad infinitum. Michelsberg is a really interesting case of a so far uncommon exclusive alliance of I2a and E1b. One theory was that E1b was already present among Mesolithic Europeans, at least in the South East, let's see how this pans out with more data coming and from where these Michelbergers where.
Another remarkable new finding is the potential proof for newcomers in the Iron Age. Because I doubt that a lot of the local I1 and E1b was coming from local survivors, because I2, which was all that dominant before BB, largely disappeared and never reappered in the Iron Age in significant numbers, while a small amount of E1b, G2 and I1 came back again. Possibly together with R1b from further East, spreading the Celtic language and Iron Age culture. Analyses of Michelsberg and BB vs. Iron Age autosomally might prove to be hgihly interesting. Also how the (especially Southern) French BB compare with the Iberian ones and fit as a potential source.
Another remarkable new finding is the potential proof for newcomers in the Iron Age. Because I doubt that a lot of the local I1 and E1b was coming from local survivors, because I2, which was all that dominant before BB, largely disappeared and never reappered in the Iron Age in significant numbers, while a small amount of E1b, G2 and I1 came back again. Possibly together with R1b from further East, spreading the Celtic language and Iron Age culture. Analyses of Michelsberg and BB vs. Iron Age autosomally might prove to be hgihly interesting. Also how the (especially Southern) French BB compare with the Iberian ones and fit as a potential source.
Angela
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^^Well, according to the authors, the steppe men brought women with them to France even if they took local mates (the data provided bears that out from what I can see), but seem to think that's not the case with Spain, where they don't find incoming steppe mtDna.
Michelsberg is one of those cultures where you suddenly get a lot of "resurgence" of hunter-gatherer mtDna. My question is not only where did the E1b1b come from, but where did the women come from? A movement south from the northeast? A refugia in the Alps?
In terms of any "possible" migration into Iron Age France, there's certainly a change in the mtDna. With all the confusion about the exact lineage of the Ydna Beaker to Iron Age I'm not sure if there was any change.
Michelsberg is one of those cultures where you suddenly get a lot of "resurgence" of hunter-gatherer mtDna. My question is not only where did the E1b1b come from, but where did the women come from? A movement south from the northeast? A refugia in the Alps?
In terms of any "possible" migration into Iron Age France, there's certainly a change in the mtDna. With all the confusion about the exact lineage of the Ydna Beaker to Iron Age I'm not sure if there was any change.
Its not about whether they take foreign women, but that they stick together and decide whom they accept and usually they accept either no one, some young fertile women or very exceptional, useful males as an exception. So its like an exclusive club which spreads and membership being restricted.
I'm pretty sure not from the Alps. The Alps were bad for farmers, even worse for foragers. I think we have to look up the North or West and to the sea rather.
I think it will be proven to have been a step by step expansion. One assimilated group after another being taken and by then, males were used as workforce and allies on a much bigger and less exclusive scale, possibly even some elite alliances between this not so different people any more. This means at the endpoint of this movement, in Ireland, the least impact is to be expected and the influence from further South East will increase the closer it gets to the core zone, with an even stronger impact being possible in early Hallstatt than later La Tene, because of a more Thraco-Cimmerian like element in the upper class in particular.
This elite Eastern and South Eastern element might have been reduced again in La Tene imho, because the Hallstatt system was destroyed and the elite might not have survived the revolution everywhere at all. But they ruled long enough for changing the general population both culturally and genetically in the areas which were later La Tene too, even if not as much as the Eastern Hallstatt sphere.
Angela
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Well, if they didn't bring their own women with them, the options change. 
It will also change the resulting admixture, increasing the percentage of "local" autosomal ancestry.
Not an insignificant distinction to make.
If they got rid of all the original "local" males, where did the local Ydna males come from who were then absorbed hundreds of years if not a millennia later. G2a seems to have been absorbed, but not I2a2. E was probably absorbed most in the Balkans imo, but we'll see.
Maybe each group had a slightly different attitude, so it was not all chronological. Goths absorbed local men in Italy, Langobards much, much less, because they were less "assimilated" to the Roman world themselves. So in that case the first to arrive were more "open". They liked a lot about Roman life, so they needed men to keep it going. The Langobards just put their horses in the Pantheon.
It will also change the resulting admixture, increasing the percentage of "local" autosomal ancestry.
Not an insignificant distinction to make.
If they got rid of all the original "local" males, where did the local Ydna males come from who were then absorbed hundreds of years if not a millennia later. G2a seems to have been absorbed, but not I2a2. E was probably absorbed most in the Balkans imo, but we'll see.
Maybe each group had a slightly different attitude, so it was not all chronological. Goths absorbed local men in Italy, Langobards much, much less, because they were less "assimilated" to the Roman world themselves. So in that case the first to arrive were more "open". They liked a lot about Roman life, so they needed men to keep it going. The Langobards just put their horses in the Pantheon.
Well, if they didn't bring their own women with them, the options change.
It will also change the resulting admixture, increasing the percentage of "local" autosomal ancestry.
Not an insignificant distinction to make.
If they got rid of all the original "local" males, where did the local Ydna males come from who were then absorbed. G2a seems to have been absorbed, but not I2a2. E was probably absorbed most in the Balkans imo, but we'll see.
Maybe each group had a slightly different attitude, so it was not all chronological. Goths absorbed local men in Italy, Langobards much, much less, because they were less "assimilated" to the Roman world themselves.
Both E, I1 and G might have come from the Balkans, Carpathians and Pannonia originally, from there to Northern Central Europe and even later to France and Western Europe. I1 is the most mysterious, different scenarios possible, but for the majority of E1b and G2 I'm pretty sure they will pop up latest in Hallstatt burials, first further East, later in the West. They will have expanded with the Iron Age innovations and the new societal rules primarily, but have started in full Bronze Age already.
I'm still waiting for I1 in Unetice to show up and from there going to Scandinavia. There are different scenarios thinkable, but I would bet on that first.
Even if they had a quite similar attitude, the different circumstances might have produced different outcomes. Like if the local women were ready to flee and even die at any cost, picking up local women was no option even if they wanted to. Not like this didn't happen at all, it depends on both sides. Women have to accept their new fate and the males have to accept them. If one side was reluctant or had no need to, no mixture.
The same goes for "male special cases". Foreign males were only accepted if it was important for the success of the clan.
Even a single male or very, very small group accepted by the clan in a desperate situation, when they needed help, could have led to the multiplication of the foreign lineage inside the newly forged alliance within a couple of generations. This can be totally stochastic even, if it turns out 3 accepted brothers were excellent warriors, rose to prominence, the clan became very successful and suddenly half of a widespread tribe descends from these 3 brothers which were accepted by a clan as helpers. But contrary to Iberia this needs time and a specific pattern - like its impossible its just one lineage dominating the population, it must be a mix, like the Michelsberger. Its possible, but it was not the rule. But it happened, in my opinion, for I1 in Northern Europe and E-V13 in parts of South Eastern and Eastern Central Europe. Chances for such a success are the best in transitional periods, like at the end of Unetice and the beginning of the Northern Bronze Age culture, whereever the I1 clan originally came from.
Angela
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That makes a lot of sense to me. Different attitude from a different group which then moved to central Europe and the west.
bicicleur 2
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check this figure B - Olalde
first arrival of Bell Beaker in Iberia, some of the very first females were almost 100 % BB
BB females came to Iberia as well
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What is clear is that they used different ISOGG versions. For example, if you check CBV95 (Bell Beaker) at S01 and S11, you'll notice that he's assigned differently. R-M269 were R1b1a1a2 in 2016 and 2017, and became R1b1a1b after that. So, I believe all these Bell Beakers were R1b-M269, yes, which would mean they mixed ISOGG versions in the same graph. lol Three out five in that graph I posted would be confirmed R1b-P312 then; one confirmed R1b-L151 and one R1b-M269 (the CBV95). Curiously, most of them are not listed in S01 neither S11.
Unfortunately, I cannot find the three G-L497s anywhere outside S11. At least two look La Tène: BES1249 and ERS83-2. There would be a third G2a in S01, NOR2B2, labeled as Hallstatt C - Early "La Tène", however, he's not in S11, neither I found the related BAM file for further analysis. The first graph I posted in this thread shows only one G2a in La Tène though.
This paper could have been better "organized".
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