A real life Stone Age battle

Angela said:
Neither did they have "cavalry" or mounted warriors; that's a much later development, which required the invention of the stirrup.
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Angela, there was pre-stirrup cavalry as well. Stirrups were invented very late, only in Late Antiquity.

Hannibal's famous cavalry at Cannae (which encircled the Romans) didn't have stirrups. Parthian Cataphracts at Carrhae didn't have stirrups. Native Americans at Little Big Horn didn't have stirrups either, yet they were excellent mounted warriors. Cavalry doesn't need stirrups. Stirrups increase stability in saddle (reducing the risk of getting unhorsed), but they are not indispensable.

The use of various types of cavalry in warfare long predated (by centuries or millennia) the invention of the stirrup.

The New World encounter is a totally different thing altogether. The Europeans not only had steel in terms of swords, they had guns and even canon for goodness' sakes.
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They also had cavalry, which was crucial for Spanish victory over the Aztecs (more so than guns, since Cortes didn't have many of them). The Spanish force under Hernan Cortes which attacked the Aztec Empire, had just as many crossbows as guns.

But the majority of Spanish soldiers under Cortes, actually fought with swords and shields. According to a book by R. Tomicki, "Tenochtitlan 1521" ("Historical Battles" series), at the beginning of the siege of Tenochtitlan, the Spanish army comprised:

Rodeleros ------- ca. 70%
Cavalrymen ----- ca. 10%
Gunmen --------- ca. 10%
Crossbowmen --- ca. 10%

Rodeleros fought as close-combat heavily armoured infantry, using swords and round shields (bucklers):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodeleros

They were the "backbone" of the Spanish force. And of course there were thousands of Native Mexican allies.

Here I wrote more about this:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31265-What-Are-Slavic-countries?p=465691&viewfull=1#post465691

As for the Aztecs - their weapons comprised (according to Tomicki's Polish-language book mentioned above):

Offensive arsenal of Aztec warriors included a javelin-thrower (atlatl), a spear (tepuztopilli), a trident (tlatzontectli), a wooden club (or "club-sword"), edges of which had blades made of obsidian (macuahuitl) as well as its larger version, a two-handed sword (macuahuitzoctli), a mace (cuauhololli), a sling (tematlatl), a kind of a long pike, and a bow (tlahuitolli) with arrows.

Aztec spearheads and arrowheads were made of stone (obsidian, etc.), bone or fishbones.

Especially dangerous were Aztec swords - macuahuitl and macuahuitzoctli - which could cut off a head.

Initially the Aztecs were terribly afraid of horses but later on they learned how to try fighting cavalry, using long pikes.

Defensive arsenal of Aztec warriors included a round shield (chimalli), which was so strong that it could sometimes even protect against crossbows, ichcahuipilli (a gambeson or a leather armour) - according to Spanish accounts it was hard to pierce it with a sword. They were also wearing coats or capes called ehuatl, as well as painted helmets made of wood and shaped to resemble heads of snakes, eagles or jaguars, and also animal skins. There were some differences in clothes - depending on status and rank of warriors.

Tenochtitlan had a standing army of regulars numbering 10,000 "Brave People". In wartime they formed elite units or were officers leading levy units. Military training for each Aztec man in schools called telpochcalli was compulsory.

Angela said:
Then add in mass epidemics and it was over.
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Well, Indo-European expansions were also supported by yersinia pestis, and by epidemic diseases that it caused.

Angela said:
there isn't even evidence of much violent conflict as far as the advance of Corded Ware is concerned.
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Times when Corded Ware peoples advanced into Scandinavia are known as "the age of crushed skulls":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#Swedish-Norwegian_Battle_Axe_culture

This does not sound like a very peaceful time. :)
 
Tomenable said:
Times when Corded Ware peoples advanced into Scandinavia are known as "the age of crushed skulls":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#Swedish-Norwegian_Battle_Axe_culture

This does not sound like a very peaceful time. :)
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While Swedish writer Herman Lindqvist has referred to this as the "Age of crushed skulls", there is no indication that this was an especially violent time, and most of the "crushing" happened post-mortem in the ground.[dubious – discuss] The "battle-axes" were primarily a status object. There are strong continuities in stone craft traditions, and very little evidence of any type of full-scale migration, least of all a violent one.

DNA has proven large migrations and replacement though.
 
Bicicleur,

[Dubious - discuss] means that the statement is unsourced, so those claims to the contrary remain unsupported.

Wikipedia tends to be edited by people who reject sweeping migrations and prefer "Paleolithic continuity theories".

An average wikipedia contributor is similar to Goga. :)
 
I don't care how many warriors the Aztecs had or how good they were; there's no way they could have competed against steel swords, guns, canon, and disease. This is not an appropriate comparison.

The warfare to which you're referring in Europe is not in Central Europe, it's in the far northeast. (see Bicicleur's post) You were discussing what happened in central Europe when partly steppe descended PIE speaking peoples came into contact with MN farming cultures.

I haven't yet seen anything to indicate that these people at that time, and in that place, had bronze weapons. They did have horses, although not many have been found for early periods. Perhaps they rode them. However, I've read the literature for years, including David Anthony. Nowhere have I seen any proof that they were using the horses for mounted warfare. I don't consider, well, they could have, to be scientific proof. Nor am I aware of anything in the archaeological record indicating large scale warfare in central Europe. That doesn't mean there wasn't a large influx of new people.

They did have an advantage in that the horses gave them added mobility. Their subsistence strategy was no doubt more advantageous given the change in the climate. The plague they carried may have preceded them by a number of years; it can travel in food packs, trade items like furs etc., as we know from the Middle Ages and the disease epidemics which ravaged the Native Americans. The population in Central Europe seems to have undergone various boom and bust cycles dependent on soil depletion, erosion, climate change etc. It may have been a perfect storm for central Europe, as the Bronze Age Collapse was a perfect storm for the palatial civilizations of the Aegean in particular but also to some degree for the Near East. That's not to say there wasn't some violence, of course.

We have plenty of factors to consider. My only objection is that you are proposing a mythic, simplified version of events which conflates events from distant times and places and which isn't supported by any real evidence.
 
Angela said:
I don't care how many warriors the Aztecs had or how good they were; there's no way they could have competed against steel swords, guns, canon, and disease. This is not an appropriate comparison.
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In fact what really doomed the Aztecs was their oppressive rule over neighbours.

A lot of warriors from other tribes joined the Spaniards in their fight against the Aztecs.

The Aztecs came close to totally destroying Cortes and his army after "La Noche Triste".

Subsequent Spanish victory would have been impossible without Native support.

Angela said:
Nowhere have I seen any proof that they were using the horses for mounted warfare.
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But what kind of evidence supporting this notion do you expect to show up ???

Assuming they were using horses for mounted warfare, what proofs should we find?
 
Goga said:
My people speak an unique Aryan language close to Avestan that nobody speaks. Ancient Iranid/Mesopotamian religios books are written in that language.

Nobody native to Europe has the same native language as my people. Iranid language was NEVER native to Europe. People in Europe has NOTHING to do with IRANID language. Iranid language was never part of Europe.

Russian, Turkic or other languages of the Steppes are not even remotely as close as my nativelanguage to the ancient Aryan languages like Avestan.



There is no evidence that proto-Indo-Iranian came from Europe at all.

DNA is saying that there was a migration from the South into North. That's a fact. From Y-DNA to au-DNA.


I know very well who my people are. Descendants of the mighty Medes, by culture (Iranid), race/DNA (Iranid, closely related to other Iranid people like Persians and Alanians), language (Iranid), religion (Iranid), homeland (Zagros has been native homeland of the Medes too, Iranid) etc. My people are from all view of points allround Iranid people.
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The distant origins of your language doesn't matter!! The reason you're so hyped up, is because you think it does matter. It doesn't.
 
Tomenable said:
Bicicleur,

[Dubious - discuss] means that the statement is unsourced, so those claims to the contrary remain unsupported.

Wikipedia tends to be edited by people who reject sweeping migrations and prefer "Paleolithic continuity theories".

An average wikipedia contributor is similar to Goga. :)
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ok, but is there any indication then that these crushed skulls are due to warfare?
are there other injuries apart from crushed skulls?
are there arrow- or spearpoints found in bodies?
 
bicicleur said:
it is funny, DNA has shown most - if not all - of Funnel Beaker people were replaced by corded ware people

yet there are no signs of violence between corded ware and neolithic people
there are signs of violence between corded ware and HG in northeastern Europe, where there were no farmers

archeology describes contacts between neolithic NW Europe and corded ware as 'friendly'

it is an enigma
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It seems correct: I red the Corded settlements in some parts of the Netherlands took the worst (sandy) places, without destroy the Funnelbeaker settlements (often megalithic in these regions if I don't mistake). So maybe some respect to equal forces? or complementary economy habits?
 
Apparently, Celts horsemen had NO stirrup. Maybe the populations having managed to ride without stirrup seemed having had better cavalry? Mor free in their body moves? The role of stabilizator of stirrup would have been taken by specific saddles?
For Romans cavalry I don't know. Someones said the Celts cavalry took often the strong side over Roman cavalry, before Rome incorporated German horsemen as auxilliaries.
Could somebody confirm or infirm it?
 
Anyone who crushes human heads with an axe has potential for actual violence :). Those axes were invented to harm humans. Using them on dead humans isn't the same as cutting up dead animals with knifes. Crushing, even dead humans, with an axe is sometype of reference to violence. Violence is in the head-smahser's mind in some shape or form. I'm not convinced "Post-Mordom Head-crushing isn't evidence of lots of violence".
 
Fire Haired14 said:
The distant origins of your language doesn't matter!! The reason you're so hyped up, is because you think it does matter. It doesn't.
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Huh, what do you mean? Kurdish language is very closely related to Avestan. Of all living languages in the world Kurdish is the closest language to Avestan. If you don't believe me compare Gorani dialect of Kurdish language to Avestan. Also, Avestan is almost identical to Sanscrit. Ancient Aryan religious books (like Zoroastrian) were written in Avestan!

Language is very important. Language = identity. Thousands of my people die yearly for our language and to persevere our language. To us it is a matter of life and death. Those who forget their language assimilate and vanish.


You can also link a language to different ancient cultures.

Kurdish, Persian etc. are Middle Eastern languages evolved in the Middle East. Those Middle Eastern Aryan languages are not from Europe. In Europe native folks spoke NEVER an Middle Eastern Aryan language such Avestan, Kurdish or Persian as their native language. Maybe some spoke it, but they brought that language as immigrants. Middle Eastern Avestan was NEVER part of Europe, Kurdish was never part of Europe etc.


Lets come back to the Medes. One might ask, what is so special about the Medes? Well the Middle Eastern Medes were the founders of the very first Aryan Empire (Middle Eastern empire) on this planet ever. Stretched from the Zagros Mountains far into to SouthCentral Asia. Nor the Middle Eastern Hittites, neither the Persians, not even the Middle Eastern Aryan Mittani, but the Medes found the very first Aryan Empire in the world. Later it was taken away by the Persians.
Deioces and his son Phraortes are the historic founding fathers of the very first Aryan Empire ever, the Median Empire. Before and after the Medes the Aryans were never as dominant again.

Like the Kurds, the Medes were children of sun and fire. They spoke a West Iranid language. That language was not from Russia, lol. Otherwise why Russians don't speak a West Iranid, Median language. Medes: the people of Magi, the people of Mithraism, the people of Zurvan, the people of the 'laws of the Medes and Persians'. The people of Cyaxares who destroyed the Semites in Mesopotamia. (He is buried in Kurdistan btw.) The Medes were more legendary than their ancestors the Mitanni.


So tell me dude, what have Russians or the Mongoloid Turkic tribes in East Russia have to do with the first Aryan Empire, the Media Empire, Median language, Median culture, religion, history and their Kings?

With all due respect, in Europe only Italians (the Roman Empire) and the Greeks (Alexander the Great) have such a great history as the Aryans in the Middle East. Other Europeans don't have any history at all. Ivanko, Russian, Slavonic folks have no ancient history at all. 2000 years ago they lived like savages in the marshes..


So language is everything. Language is past and future. Those who found the first Aryan Empire spoke, like Kurds, a West Iranid language and lived in the Zagros Mountains. Not Russian, not Slavic, not Baltic, but West Iranid. In the Zagros, the Middle East! And West Iranid language were NEVER native to Europe, because no native population in the Steppes speaks Aryan/Iranid language as their native language.


The language I speak, my native language was spoken by Keyxesrew (Cyaxares) who defeated the Semties in southern parts of Mesopotamia and made the Aryan (Median) Empire (Middle Eastern) even greater. And Middle Eastern Kurds are descendants of the Middle Eastern Medes. My ancestors were the Medes. This is very easy to understand. I'm very proud of the history of my race, so proud as a peacock (angel).


So, who (tf) were your ancestors...?





BTW, Google translate has Kurdish now. Thank you Google, keep the Aryan (West Iranic) language of the Medes alive!
 
Goga, you disrespect all other peoples and their histories, yet expect everyone to respect you.

I very much support the Kurdish independence movement, but I also hope that other Kurds don't behave like you.

Why are you so defensive and so hostile at the same time. And what are you even arguing about ???

This thread is NOT about Kurds, for goodness' sakes. And we are not ISIS, so stop being so hostile.

BTW, your disrespect for the continent which hosts you is pathetic. You just claimed most of Europe has no history.
 
Goga said:
Thousands of my people die yearly for our language and to persevere our language.
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Kurdish female heroes die fighting ISIS (meanwhile what are Kurdish men doing in the EU, and in the internet?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybcsRbhnpnc

http://supportkurds.org/kurdistan/

In case if a Kurdish woman is trapped by ISIS, surrendering is no option, because that would be worse than death:


1/3 of Kurdish forces fighting ISIS are women. And among Middle Eastern refugees in Europe 4/5 are men !!!

What does it say about Middle Eastern men?

Goga said:
2000 years ago they lived like savages in the marshes.
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And 2000 years ago Middle Easterners were not savages in the marshes, but they are now.

"On the left - the Middle East 4000 years ago; on the right - the Middle East today":

Middle_East.png


Are you really so proud that your region relatively (compared to others) declined over time ???
 
Tomenable said:
Goga, you disrespect all other peoples and their histories, yet expect everyone to respect you.

I very much support the Kurdish independence movement, but I also hope that other Kurds don't behave like you.

Why are you so defensive and so hostile at the same time. And what are you even arguing about ???

This thread is NOT about Kurds, for goodness' sakes. And we are not ISIS, so stop being so hostile.

BTW, your disrespect for the continent which hosts you is pathetic. You just claimed most of Europe has no history.
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Somebody else started to talk about BMAC, Sintashta etc.. Not me..



Thank you for your support. But it doesn't help. Kurds have to fight against the Turks and Semites for their own country and reclaim it back which belonged to our ancestors the Medes. We will defeat our enemies, no doubt about that. Nobody can defeat 50 million Kurds in Kurdistan. Even genocides against the Kurds won't help. maybe in the 20th century you could genocide, 2, 6 million people. But to genocide 50 million people on their native land in the 21st century is just impossible!


Don't put something into my mouth what I didn't tell. Alexander the Great was an European. The Roman Empire was an European Empire. Italians are great European people who have huge ancient European history. So Europe has ancient history, but people in Northern Europe and especially Balto-Slavic folks don't have any ancient history at all. Where were they at the time of Socrates or Julius Caesar? They lived in the marshes. That's a fact! But today Russians (Slavonic Ivanko folks) are making great history. They are a superpower now at the moment. But the point is that Russians don't have any ancient history. That's all. I'm not trying to insult anybody.


Europe has a GREAT history. History of Europe and Western civilization is based on the ancient Greeks, like Plato, Socrates, Aristotle who in turn were influenced by the Iranid philosophy. but Iranid (Aryan) philosophy found its roots in the Mesopotamia (Sumerians). Listen, I don't consider Iranid philosophy superior, maybe the Chinese philosophy is even older and more superior…


My point is, even if you don't have ancient history, don't try to steal history of other ancient people. Balto-Slavonic folks were never Aryan and never will be. But at ths moment of time Slavic Russians are much more powerfull than Aryan folks combined (Kurds + Persians). That's also a fact...
 
Tomenable said:
Brave Kurdish women die fighting ISIS (meanwhile what are Kurdish men doing in the EU, and in the internet?):


1/3 of Kurdish forces fighting ISIS are women. And among Middle Eastern refugees in Europe 4/5 are men !!!

What does it say about Middle Eastern men? Instead of supporting their women, they come here to rape our.
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They are immortal! They will never be forgotten in Kurdish history. They’re more brave than I'm. I did nothing for Kurdistan (money is nothing), while they are giving their lives for Kurdistan. I hope 1 day I can give just 1% back to my people of what those warriors gave.

I was not born in Kurdistan. I was born in the USSR. I'm not a warrior or a fighter, I'm an intellectual. I have other qualities. And I do hope that someday Kurdistan can use my qualities…
 
but people in Northern Europe and especially Balto-Slavic folks don't have any ancient history at all.
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What do you mean by history, though? Only written history?

Before written history, there was prehistory and archaeology. Now archaeogenetics also helps uncover the past.

We do have prehistory plus some Ancient archaeology. And genetic origins: we did not sprung out of the ground.

Celts & Germanics have more ancient history only because they lived closer to Greeks and Romans, who described them.

Ancient Celts didn't have a writing system and Germanics also started using writing (runes; Sagas) only later.

Somebody else started to talk about BMAC, Sintashta etc.. Not me.
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Nobody here claimed that Sintashta or BMAC were Slavic-speakers or Baltic-speakers - or ethnically Balto-Slavs.

We just wrote about geographical locations and geographical points of origin.

You seem to be thinking that if someone came from what is now Russia, they must have been Slavic-speakers.

Kurds have to fight against the Turks and Semites for their own country and reclaim it back
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I wish all the best to Kurds, they really deserve to have their own independent homeland.
 
Tomenable said:
And 2000 years ago Middle Easterners were not savages in the marshes, but they are now.

"On the left - the Middle East 4000 years ago; on the right - the Middle East today":

Middle_East.png


Are you really so proud that your region declined so much over time ???
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Lol, true and you re right.

But some folks in the Middle East were savages, are savages and always will be savages. You just have to look to the Arabian Peninsula. That's not 'my' part of the Middle East.


That's because the whole world is supporting the Turks and the Semites against the Aryans in the Middle East.
Who is helping the Turks to kill Kurds? Who is giving the Turks airplanes, tanks, missiles and other weapons to kill Kurds? The whole world! Who created Semitic Al-Qaeda, Daesh and attacked the Kurds? Who is giving those Semites the weapons? Semitic Jews, the USA and the rest of the world.

Kurds don't have friends but the mountains. We are surrounded by the enemies and we are fighting against the whole world for centuries. But we're still standing. Untill the last Kurd on this planet we're not defeated. Other races and other languages would vanish. But Kurds are still alive and live on their ancestral homeland. And we re going to will this battle we are fighting against the whole world.

So don't worry, buddy. The ancient prophecies are talking about the return of the Medes. The Kurds/Medes will make their comeback on the world stage again. Once Kurds will reclaim the homeland of their ancestors back, West Asia will flourish again. Not sure about Arabia thought. My folks are not really interested in Arabia or the Semites.…
 
Tomenable said:
What do you mean by history, though? Only written history?

Before written history, there was prehistory and archaeology. Now archaeogenetics also helps uncover the past.

We do have prehistory plus some Ancient archaeology. And genetic origins: we did not sprung out of the ground.

Celts & Germanics have more ancient history only because they lived closer to Greeks and Romans, who described them.

Ancient Celts didn't have a writing system and Germanics also started using writing (runes; Sagas) only later.



Nobody here claimed that Sintashta or BMAC were Slavic-speakers or Baltic-speakers - or ethnically Balto-Slavs.

We just wrote about geographical locations and geographical points of origin.

You seem to be thinking that if someone came from what is now Russia, they must have been Slavic-speakers.
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By history I mean a great human civilization, a dominant empire if you want, (to the known world) that changed the course of humanity, the way of thinking of the known civilized world. And not only militarily (like Genghis Khan did), but through philosophy, art, science, laws, restructuring the civil society to influence/evolve the whole human race.


Some folks on this site believe here that the ancestors of Balto-Slavic people came to Asia and found Aryan civilizations in Asia. If that was a case, why didn't they found any advanced civilization in their own homeland before Aryans in West Asia and why don't they speak the languages of the advanced Aryans civilizations of West Asia, like languages of the Zoroastrian books, Avestan etc.
When you do colonize a country you are teaching the colonized one your own language. And the colonized one are starting to speak the language of their colonizers. English, Spanish is spoken outside Europe.

Ancient Aryans spoke Iranid languages, like Avestan, Kurdish (Median) and Persian. Ancient Aryan civilizations were found by these languages. West Iranian languages were official languages of the Aryan civilizations. Not PIE, not proto-Indo-Iranian, but just plain West Iranian. The Medes were Aryan people. That's a fact. They didn't speak proto-Indo-European or proto-Indo-Iranian. During the Aryan Empire folks in that Empire didn't speak Russian, Balto-Slavic or even proto-Indo-Iranian. They spoke just West Iranian. If Aryans came from the Russian Steppes, why people don't speak Iranic languages like the true Aryan folks during the Median Empire? Like English and Spanish in Europe and English & Spanish in the New World...
 
We are surrounded by the enemies (...) But we're still standing.
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Poles have always lived between Russians and Germans, with whom our relations were more often hostile than peaceful.

We know how it is to be surrounded by the enemies.

Ever heard of the Partitions of Poland-Lithuania? Or about the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact? There are more such episodes.

Kurds don't have friends but the mountains.
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You can consider me a friend of Kurds. I'm also a friend of Tibetans and Uyghurs, who are under Chinese occupation.

But what can we do about this ???

The world just ignores Tibet and Xinjiang, because China is too powerful. You have the same problem with Turkey.

But the collapse of Iraq and of Syria created an opportunity for the Kurds.
 
Tomenable said:
Poles were always located between Russia and Germany. We know how it is to be surrounded by the enemies.



You can consider me a friend of Kurds. I'm also a friend of Tibetans and Uyghurs, who are under Chinese occupation.

But what can we do about this ???

The world just ignores Tibet and Xinjiang, because China is too powerful. You have the same problem with Turkey.

But the collapse of Iraq and of Syria created an opportunity for the Kurds.
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Poles have access to the sea. Poland could trade withwhole world through the sea. With Scandinavia etc. Kurds are trapped and haveno gate to the world. We've only mountains.
But I think when Great Kurdistan will be established (very soon, sooner than you think) we will border the Caucasus Mountain, Georgia and Armenia. Georgians and Armenians will become our door (corridor) to the civilized world.


Turks and Turkey are priority now. To make our homeland flourish Turks have to be totally defeated. And that is already happening. We are defeating them, this proces has already been started. Those Turks who will still oppose the Kurds will go back to their homeland, where they came from 1000 years ago, back to the Altai. Those who will stay will become Greeks, Georgians, Armenian again..



But this topic is not about the Kurds. It was not my intention to derail it....
 
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