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Thread: How Come No One Has Mentioned........

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    THE CRAZY OLD GUY !! Frank D. White's Avatar
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    How Come No One Has Mentioned........



    the situation in Russia. The idea of terrorists using innocent children as pawns sure angers me! What do you think of them killing so many people over the past years to gain "FREEDOM"? When women are willing to blow themselves up as well as innocent people, they sure must think "FREEDOM" is important? I know killing them (The Checnians(SIC) isn't the answer) but I sure would come down hard on them for what they have been doing? I have to admit, I don't know the details of this long fight.
    What do you think of all this?

    Frank

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    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    the situation in Russia. The idea of terrorists using innocent children as pawns sure angers me! What do you think of them killing so many people over the past years to gain "FREEDOM"? When women are willing to blow themselves up as well as innocent people, they sure must think "FREEDOM" is important? I know killing them (The Checnians(SIC) isn't the answer) but I sure would come down hard on them for what they have been doing? I have to admit, I don't know the details of this long fight.
    The details are that the Russian forces have been committing atrocities in Chechnya for years now (largely ignored by the rest of the world). That's also the reason why so many women are taking part in these terrorist acts. They are called "black widows". Usually they had (even saw it happening) their husband/brother/father being killed by Russian forces. This whole crap doesn't come out of the blue & the Chechnyans are surely not the first to blame. You could say the Russians are faced with the ghost that they themselves created.

    Furthermore, these MF terrorists are not equal to the Chechnyan resistance. The fighters of Maskhadov are mostly not active in terrorism.

    The most horrible thing is that the terrorists seem to have actually achieved what they wanted. At the moment Russian forces seem to be storming the school, which means there will be dozens if not hundreds of dead (just like in the theatre hostage situation some years ago). That's what the terrorists probably hoped for, they want to show how ruthless the Russian forces are. If the Russians had not acted, the situation might have been solved by negotiations, but well, who knows (the terrorists seemed very determined this time). In any case, the terrorists got what they wanted.
    Let's hope, that not too many people will be killed.

    There are arseholes on both sides, you can't blame all Chechnyans for the actions of terrorists, just as you can't blame all Russians for atrocities of their security forces.

  3. #3
    kin'niku
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    can't blame the terrorists for killing children? oh boy..................

    chechens are scum. Stalin killed 350,000 of them and relocated 350,000 across russian during a chechen uprising. The reason why they aren't squashed today is because people are making money of this war on both sides.
    chechens are sponcered by al qaida and funded by middle eastern islamic extremists. I hope Putin's responce is servere.
    Americans, Canadians, Australians didn't get independence from killing children

  4. #4
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kin'niku
    can't blame the terrorists for killing children? oh boy..................
    Who said so?

    chechens are scum. Stalin killed 350,000 of them and relocated 350,000 across russian during a chechen uprising.
    Wow! You say "Chechens are scum" & then you take Stalin as your witness. Either you are very ...hmm... uneducated (to put it politely) or you are simply (as our beloved kochisho would call it) "filled with misinformation". I'd say, you deserve some bad rep, OK?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    The details are that the Russian forces have been committing atrocities in Chechnya for years now (largely ignored by the rest of the world). That's also the reason why so many women are taking part in these terrorist acts. They are called "black widows". Usually they had (even saw it happening) their husband/brother/father being killed by Russian forces. This whole crap doesn't come out of the blue & the Chechnyans are surely not the first to blame. You could say the Russians are faced with the ghost that they themselves created.

    Furthermore, these MF terrorists are not equal to the Chechnyan resistance. The fighters of Maskhadov are mostly not active in terrorism.

    The most horrible thing is that the terrorists seem to have actually achieved what they wanted. At the moment Russian forces seem to be storming the school, which means there will be dozens if not hundreds of dead (just like in the theatre hostage situation some years ago). That's what the terrorists probably hoped for, they want to show how ruthless the Russian forces are. If the Russians had not acted, the situation might have been solved by negotiations, but well, who knows (the terrorists seemed very determined this time). In any case, the terrorists got what they wanted.
    Let's hope, that not too many people will be killed.

    There are arseholes on both sides, you can't blame all Chechnyans for the actions of terrorists, just as you can't blame all Russians for atrocities of their security forces.
    bossel I agree. Russia has done horrible things in Chechnya. They have completely demolished Grozny, and have killed thousands of innocant civilians because of their outdated tactics and weaponry. And now when the bad side effects are showing, the policy of the russian gov seems to be to put any situation down as soon as possible so there is no chance for the public opion to react or to see the truth of the chechen conflict. Is the only way i can view the total disregard for human life that Russian security forces are showing, even to their own citizens. First they killed 100 hostages with that gas in the theater and now 150 more, and children this time. This is totally unecaptable; if I was Russian, i would never vote for that ex KGB, new capitalist Putin and would certainly be furious and outraged. I hope the Russian Media and public opinion turn severely on their government, although I doubt that democracy works that well there. Anyaways, is just horrible what happened; i just hope no more hostages dies.

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    Anjin
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    The Chechens might be fighting for a good cause, but killing innocent people is not going to earn them support from anyone. It may be an extreme group who did it, but in the eyes of the world it reflects on the entire movement. There is no excuse for such actions, under any circumstances. The ends don't justify the means, it matters what you do to accomplish your goals. Someone who believes that their cause is so just that they're willing to do anything to accomplish it, is capable of any kind of horrific act imaginable.
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    Anjin
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    @Frank....
    You should change the name of this thread, so people will know the topic and hopefully respond to it.

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    Anjin
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    I just got a rep point from someone who didn't have enough posts for it to count for possitve or negative points. The only thing it said was, "idiot!" Hmmmm. I'm trying to think of who I would have pissed off, but I guess, given what I wrote, it could be someone from either side, since I was critical of both. Kin'niku? If you, or anyone, disagrees with what I've written, please feel free to (rationally) express your thoughts on the forum, as that is what it's for.

  9. #9
    THE CRAZY OLD GUY !! Frank D. White's Avatar
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    I Guess I Used A Low Key Title....

    so this wouldn't become a major fight scene. When it comes to little kids being hurt & killed emotions can run high. The Russian govt. is worried about retaliation against the Chechnyians from family & friends. Hard to believe anyone could use kids as political pawns like this!

    Frank


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    Anjin
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    It seems so counterproductive. It's just encouraging hate and retalliation for generations to come.

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    Regular House Cat michi's Avatar
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    i'm speechless. i don't know what to say. it's too disgusting.

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    Where I'm Supposed to Be kirei_na_me's Avatar
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    It's very sad to think about all those children who died. Children who were innocent and probably didn't even fully know or understand what was going on.
    You have bewitched me, body and soul...

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    People are more concerned with Bush's impending second 'reign of terror'.

    Eventually I'm sure someone will link him to being behind these atrocities.

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    There's a discussion of this subject going on at another forum, and I thought this one member's post might shed some light on the subject, although Bossel already explained some of this. The article included in the post is what is especially interesting, I think:

    Sorry - this is long - but thought you all might be interested in learning a bit more about the people of Chechnya. My understanding is that the Chechen people have been sorely abused by the Russians - the very fabric of their life nearly destroyed. It's probably comparable to the Palestinian/Israel conflict. Probably won't inspire comparable polarization among Americans, but it is interesting, nonetheless. Its so easy to pin a label "terrorist". These people have lost 1/2 their population - how many children dead is that? I'd say they are pretty pissed off, eh?

    _______________
    Who are the Chechen?
    By Johanna Nichols, on Linguist list
    13 January 1995
    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/63/077.html

    History.
    The Chechens have evidently been in or near their present territory for some 6000 years and perhaps much longer; there is fairly seamless archeological continuity for the last 8000 years or more in central Daghestan, suggesting that the Nakh-Daghestanian language family is long indigenous. The Caucasian highlands were apparently relatively populous and prosperous in ancient times. From the late middle ages until the 19th century, a worldwide cooling phase known as the Little Ice Age caused glacial advances and shortened growing seasons in the alpine highlands, weakening the highland economies and triggering migrations to the lowlands and abandonment of some alpine villages. This period of economic hardship coincided with the Russian conquest of the Caucasus which lasted from the late 1500's to the mid-1800's.

    In all of recorded history and inferable prehistory the Chechens (and for that matter the Ingush) have never undertaken battle except in defense. The Russian conquest of the Caucasus was difficult and bloody, and the Chechens and Ingush with their extensive lowlands territory and access to the central pass were prime targets and were among the most tenacious defenders. Russia destroyed lowlands villages and deported, exiled, or slaughtered civilian population, forcing capitulation of the highlands. Numerous refugees migrated or were deported to various Muslim countries of the middle east, and to this day there are Chechen populations in Jordan and Turkey. Since then there have been various Chechen rebellions against Russian and Soviet power, as well as resistance to collectivization, anti-religious campaigns, and Russification.

    In 1944 the Chechens and Ingush, together with the Karachay-Balkar, Crimean Tatars, and other nationalities were deported en masse to Kazakhstan and Siberia, losing at least one-quarter and perhaps half of their population in transit. Though "rehabilitated" in 1956 and allowed to return in 1957, they lost land, economic resources, and civil rights; since then, under both Soviet and post-Soviet governments, they have been the objects of (official and unofficial) discrimination and discriminatory public discourse. In recent years, Russian media have depicted the Chechen nation and/or nationality as thugs and bandits responsible for organized crime and street violence in Russia.

    In late 1992 Russian tanks and troops, sent to the north Caucasus ostensibly as peacekeepers in an ethnic dispute between Ingush and Ossetians over traditional Ingush lands politically incorporated into North Ossetia after the 1944 deportation, forcibly removed the Ingush population from North Ossetia and destroyed the Ingush villages there; there were many deaths and there are now said to be up to 60,000 refugees in Ingushetia (about one-quarter of the total Ingush population). In developments reminiscent of today's invasion of Chechnya, in the weeks leading up to the action the Ingush were depicted (inaccurately) in regional media as heavily armed and poised for a large-scale and organized attack on Ossetians, and the Russian military once deployed appears to have undertaken ethnic cleansing at least partly on its own initiative. (My only sources of information for this paragraph are Russian and western news reports. Helsinki Watch is preparing a report for publication in early 1995.)

    The invasion of Chechnya presently underway has meant great human suffering for all residents of the Chechen lowlands, including Russians, but only the Chechens are at risk of ethnic cleansing, wholesale economic ruin, and loss of linguistic and cultural heritage.

    Religion.
    The Chechens and Ingush are Sunni Muslims of the Hanafi school, having converted in the late 17th to early 19th centuries. Islam is now, as it has been since the conversion, moderate but strongly held and a central component of the culture and the ethnic identity.

    Economy, customs. Traditionally, the lowlands Chechen were grain farmers and the highlanders raised sheep. At the time of Russian contact the lowlands were wealthy and produced a grain surplus, while the highlands were not self-sufficient in food and traded wool and eggs for lowlands grain.

    Chechen social structure and ethnic identity rest on principles of family and clan honor, respect for and deference to one's elders, hospitality, formal and dignified relations between families and clans, and courteous and formal public and private behavior.

    Kinship and clan structure are patriarchal, but women have full social and professional equality and prospects for financial independence equivalent to those of men.

    Academics, writers, artists, and intellectuals in general are well versed in the cultures of both the European and the Islamic worlds, and the society as a whole can be said to regard both of these heritages as their own together with the indigenous north Caucasian artistic and intellectual tradition.

    Social organization.
    Until the Russian conquest the Chechens were an independent nation with their own language and territory but no formal political organization. Villages were autonomous, as were clans. Villages had mutual defense obligations in times of war, and clans had mutual support relations that linked them into larger clan confederations (which generally coincided with dialects). Each clan was headed by a respected elder. There were no social classes and no differences of rank apart from those of age, kinship, and earned social honor.
    _________________


    And, given the slant of media coverage - with the knee-jerk "oh the damn terrorists" thing - pretty much no one knows or cares that there is, most definitely, the Chechen side of the story. I looked on CNN and they provided a timeline of Chechen "terrorists" acts dating back to 1995. There was no corresponding timeline of Russian atrocities to the Chechen people. On the scale of things - if you weigh this by lives lost - the Russians have out-killed the Chechens by 1000 to 1 (or more?).

    I remember reading something years ago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn - who described life in the Soviet Gulags. He said it crushed the spirit and will of all who endured it - except for the Chechens. Egad! Thats pretty tough.

    I'd guess, after the last 50 years of virtual genocide - the Chechens don't give a rat's a** about getting glowing reviews from the world media or have much faith that justice will be served to their people. And, given that Russia is our new best friend, the US has withdrawn its condemnation of the slaughter of the Chechens - part of the deal to make "nice-nice" with Putin. Now Chechens are conveniently described as terrorists.

    Well, where was everyone when the Russians were slaughtering the Chechen children - by the thousands? Where was the outrage, the righteous indignation? Thousands of Chechen children slaughtered. More horrifying than the pictures plastered across the media today - innocent children killed.

    Eye for an eye - in an unequal contest, no less - that is the Chechen way. As a matter of fact - I believe that would be George W. Bush's mantra. Eye for an eye. 2800 people killed on 9-11. How many Iraqis dead? Iraqi children? And, the greatest irony, is that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.

    Can't have it both ways. The Chechens are behaving no differently than the United States. Although this is much more similar to Israel/Palestinian conflict than 9-11. However, our world view is now colored by 9-11 and that is how we frame a response to any of these situations. Terrorists - kill them. Knee-jerk, unreasoned, unresearched.

    What do you think - shall we divert our bombers from Fallujah and Najaf in Iraq to bomb the crap out of Chechyna? Would that make everyone feel better?

    Again, just some food for thought.

    I think it's a very sad situation, any way you look at it.

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    Cat lover Miss_apollo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirei_na_me
    It's very sad to think about all those children who died. Children who were innocent and probably didn't even fully know or understand what was going on.
    Exactly, it is very sad..
    Hopefully the children who survived will not be afraid of attending school in the long term after professional help etc.., but for many, it was their first day of school - which was supposed to be memorable and fun...
    It is very sad that so many children died.

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    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    When it comes to little kids being hurt & killed emotions can run high. The Russian govt. is worried about retaliation against the Chechnyians from family & friends.
    That's probably the reason why these terrorists chose a school in N-Ossetia as a target. They know how emotional people get over children. What it seems like now, they aimed at destabilising the whole region. Many if not most of the attackers seem to have been Ingush & therefore some Ossetians now threaten with retaliation against (probably innocent) Ingush. Which means that Russian forces would intervene.

    That essentially would open up a new front for the Russians, which might draw troops from Chechnya. Though that may be not the main goal of the attack. Perhaps the terrorists hope for Ingushetia being drawn into the conflict on Chechnya's side. If the Russian troops don't act carefully (something they are not really famous for) this actually might happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Satori
    I think it's a very sad situation, any way you look at it.
    Thanks for the text. Although it's a bit biased: I always have certain doubts when people claim that "[in this case]the Chechens (and for that matter the Ingush) have never undertaken battle except in defense."

    But you're definitely right with your last sentence: "I think it's a very sad situation, any way you look at it."

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    Amateur Beerologist Mike in Japan's Avatar
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    In my book this is the behaviour of animals.
    NOTHING could possibly justify the slaughter of innocent kids ... NOTHING.
    Do these animals have souls? If they do and assuming there is some higher power, I'm sure they will find their rightful place - in Hell.
    It's sad and sorry to know that some people seem to feel there is some justification for the actions of these child killers.

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    Southern Sun Duo's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone here justifies the acts that these people undertook, however, I think some of understand the motivation that has pushed these people to the edge. None of us here can know the pain of loosing someone in a war, and we can't experience the pain and sorrow and need for revenge that some of these people may have. I don't know what I would be capable of if my brother or wife or son or whomever dear to would be killed for no reason. Sometimes the pain of such is loss is too great that it can cloud any sense or rationale, and can shove us on the cliff of irrationality and an obscure presence of mind. The idea is to try and understand why would someone do such a thing, so that it can be prevented in the future. In my view, the Russian army and government are also responsible for what happened, for it was their policies and actions that have caused incidents like this to occur. Also, we do not know what fully happened at the scene. Firtly, these men that captured the school realeased some young ones and some other people, that lets me think that perhpaps they didn't want to really kill anyone if they didn't "have" to. From the last incident in the theater in Moscow, I am not so sure that to expect of the Russian forces, perhaps they incidentally triggered the explosion of violence. I hope such things don't happen again, especially with children, seeing how it is tremendously horrifying that so many innocent children died. Again, i think the question to ask is not how can someone do such a thing, but why would someone do something like this? What can push someone to commit such an atrocity?

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    旅人 RockLee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo
    I don't think anyone here justifies the acts that these people undertook, however, I think some of understand the motivation that has pushed these people to the edge. None of us here can know the pain of loosing someone in a war, and we can't experience the pain and sorrow and need for revenge that some of these people may have. I don't know what I would be capable of if my brother or wife or son or whomever dear to would be killed for no reason. Sometimes the pain of such is loss is too great that it can cloud any sense or rationale, and can shove us on the cliff of irrationality and an obscure presence of mind. The idea is to try and understand why would someone do such a thing, so that it can be prevented in the future. In my view, the Russian army and government are also responsible for what happened, for it was their policies and actions that have caused incidents like this to occur. Also, we do not know what fully happened at the scene. Firtly, these men that captured the school realeased some young ones and some other people, that lets me think that perhpaps they didn't want to really kill anyone if they didn't "have" to. From the last incident in the theater in Moscow, I am not so sure that to expect of the Russian forces, perhaps they incidentally triggered the explosion of violence. I hope such things don't happen again, especially with children, seeing how it is tremendously horrifying that so many innocent children died. Again, i think the question to ask is not how can someone do such a thing, but why would someone do something like this? What can push someone to commit such an atrocity?
    I agree...I saw a short documentary about Putin, and his tactic against criminals is the WORST I EVER SEEN!!!! he said several times "We do not negotiate with criminals, we never did and won't plan to do so in the future", this METHOD in my opinion is only causing more deaths, and did you see the way the russian army infiltrated the building????OMG...they just threw grenades into the rooms ets...shooting EVERYthing on sight...is this how the military should act with schoolchildren nearby??it's crazy !!!!
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    Cat lover Miss_apollo7's Avatar
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    Satori had a loooooooooooooong contribution on culture, religion etc on the Chechnyans, thanks satori!!
    And I just thought that I wanted to add this history bit:

    The first violent struggle between Russian and Chechnyan forces happened in 1722. From 1824, the Chechnyan and other North-Caucasian people fought together under Imam Sjamil against the power of the Zar in Russia, and Sjamil surrended in 1859, which marked the end of Russian colonisation of North-Caucasus. The Chechnyan kept fighting, against Soviet power and Russian power.
    -------
    About the kidnapping and bloodshed in the school, some believe that this wil lead to something more; a bigger conflict:
    E.g. a resurrection of old conflicts in north-caucasus. Especially because some of the kidnappers/murderers came from Ingushetia, and in 1992 after violent collision, 60.000 people from Ingushetia were driven away from north ossetia, which was a former Ingushetian land, where North Ossetians moved in after deportation by Stalin of all Ingushetians in 1944.

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    Regular Member blessed's Avatar
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    russia - chechnya conflict is plain dumb.

    if they decided to give independence to chechnya now, there could be only one major problem: other states seeking independence. umm, but, well... yeah: the russian government could simply say: "look, those guys were fighting for independence for a really long time; we bombed the bi'Jesus out of them, reducing their cities to rubble, killed many of them...Do you still want to start a fight for your independence?"
    there, done. but this wont happen cause the war is Russia's Imperialist motives shining through in a "democracy".

    the russian troops are 18 year olds, who probably got dragged into the war through conscription, so don't blame them (well, you can, they did the crimes after all, but just consider the following point) for being pissed off at everything that moves cause they probably think that the chechens are the cause of their torments (state education probably doesn't cover chechnya unbiasedly). and don't you all know that 18 year old guys probably lack any moral fiber, especially in a war enviroment, and when poorely trained to see "brain goo" in regular intervals?

    taking children hostage in a struggle for independence is dumb, as well as seriously wrong.

    this "tit for tat for tit for tat..." procedure won't end soon in my opinion as both parties are filled with morons made of stone.
    Who was Hitler?... a petty dictator living in the times of Stalin.

    Everyone is intelligent...some before; some afterwards.

    ... my mood while I've been on this forum... in reverse order!!! hehe

  22. #22
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Here is a quite good analysis of the Russian security forces:
    Russia's Caucasus quagmire

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    Anjin
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    So the rebels have suceeded in showing how bad the Russian tactics are. It's too bad that they're forcing attrocities to prove it.

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    I think what happened is another 'slaughter of the innocents' thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooker
    It seems so counterproductive. It's just encouraging hate and retalliation for generations to come.
    It's a vicious cycle and the ones who will always be caught in the middle are the innocent people especially the children.

    I agree...I saw a short documentary about Putin, and his tactic against criminals is the WORST I EVER SEEN!!!! he said several times "We do not negotiate with criminals, we never did and won't plan to do so in the future", this METHOD in my opinion is only causing more deaths, and did you see the way the russian army infiltrated the building????OMG...they just threw grenades into the rooms ets...shooting EVERYthing on sight...is this how the military should act with schoolchildren nearby??it's crazy !!!!
    Putin's negotiation comment is very irresponsible, I am so angry. I'm thinking he wouldn't think twice in sacrificing any loved one who got involved in a similar situation, tsk tsk tsk. When I saw the army moving in, I was like "this is the height of Russian Army insanity!"
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    Amateur Beerologist Mike in Japan's Avatar
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    Let's not forget it was the terrorists who carefully chose this target. They could have chosen something where children were not involved.
    Or they could have chosen to stay home and ....... whatever.

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