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Thread: multiculturalism good or bad??

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think Singapore is the best example of thriving multiculturalism.
    Singapore is essentially a city.
    Some days you're the dog. Other days you're the lamp post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Oh, but your are a product (me too) of multiculturalism of the past. How many nations lived in Iberia that we have a records of? Celts, Romans, Vandals...., I'm pretty sure you can finish the list better than I.
    Not so. We are, at least most of us, the result of colonisation or immigration, two very different things.

    An immigrant comes to a nation and integrates into that nation bringing with him traditions and practices that will either wither on the vine over a very short period of time or become popular by the people of the nation to which he immigrates. Chinese and Indian restraints are a classic example of this. So not multi-cultural, multi-ethnic and with the benefits such a thing can bring.

    But multiculturalism is different. It is colonisation by any other name and colonisation can only have one outcome. Either the colonies are broken down and integration of the colonists takes place or the colonists take over.

    There is no third path.

    America is the fly in the ointment, and at the same time the prime example of what happens after colonisation takes place.

    Because America and to a lesser extent Canada are the consequences of colonisation followed by utter domination f the indigenous people there is an ethos that has emerged that immigration of “new” nationalities into a land and those “new” nationalities being let to develop independently is a good thing.

    It is not.

    For one thing the immigrants to the US had one aim, exploitation of the land and the indigenous people under a common principle, the “American Dream”. For another the sheer size of the place plus the absence of the indigenous people who had been subjected to genocide and the few survivors in essence caged into “reservations” meant that culture clashes when they did occour had room to dissipate.

    And for a third thing with the exception of the Chinese mostly in the West and the former slaves the immigrants all shared a common European identity while the two principle groups who did not were largely powerless and exploited.

    But today the US is facing a problem that many people simply do not understand let alone accept that it exists. The US is being re-colonised.

    The people who lived American lifestyle with the associated values, ambitions, and principles up to twenty five years ago are now the indigenous people who are facing domination and not resisting it.

    Funny when you think about how the Indigenous people who the White colonists faced when they started their invasion so often helped the Whites. Now the wheel has turned and the descendents of those same settlers are doing exactly the same to their colonists.

    Nemesis rules not just in Greece eh?

    No, Multi–culturalism is not a good thing, it is a disaster waiting to happen and a thing that should be avoided at all costs.

    An immigrants should either integrate with the host country, or should not emigrate to the place and people within a country should fight colonisation. If not they “Endeavor to persevere”.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyllgi View Post
    Welsh are you?

    Or you live in Wales do you?

    Or you mix with Welsh people from all walks of life every day do you?

    Or is it that you make that claim based on the antipathy that so many Welsh people feel towards a neighbour who has and continues to exploit our land.

    A neighbour who buys up our villages and turns them into holiday ghetto’s, full of often trouble makers in Summer and ghost towns for the rest of the year, and that has priced our people out of the housing market in our own land by their actions.

    Who has systematically raped our valleys for coal, devastated our mountains for slate, takes our water and charges us more for our own water than the people in England pay.

    I remember old relatives of mine dying from “The Dust”, emphysema as a consequence of working in the coal mines.

    I remember the dreadful mess surrounding the “Phurnacite” plant at Abercwmboi, a mess that despite the plant having been closed for twenty years remains still as dreadful pollution not only where it was but down the whole of the Cynon valley. And that is just one example of many “souvenirs” the English have left us.

    That one so that their towns and cities could have smokeless fuel.

    They took our coal, and left US with the smoke. Nice.

    No, don’t mistake our dislike of the English as tribalism, it’s down to the actions of the English in our part of Great Britain.
    God bless the Welsh people.

  4. #29
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    Gwyllgi, show me any region in Europe rich in coal that didn't went through dirty industrialisation period. Doesn't feel that special anymore, ha?

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    Gwyllgi, doesn't matter if you are wrong or right, or if your concerns of multiculturalism are justified or not, fear of outside influence or new changes is a tribal instinct. Keep in mind that I'm not saying if it's a good thing or not (can be both depending on circumstances), though it might be in a way of future strong EU, but that's I guess is not what you want anyway.

    It's true that in most cases multiculturalism is not a beneficial thing. It even could be a main cause that brings empires down. It's also true that the strongest societies are uniform, and united under one religion, law, culture etc.
    There are also exaples of successful multicultural sociaties, and this should be analyzed why it is the case, and not discarded to the stinky bucket of all bad multiculturalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    God bless the Welsh people.
    Not very flattering when you say it to the atheist. ;)

  7. #32
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    Welsh are you?
    No.

    Or you live in Wales do you?
    Most of the time, yes. I'm consequently registered to vote there.

    Or you mix with Welsh people from all walks of life every day do you?
    I do indeed. From Welsh Assembly Members down to the homeless.

    Or is it that you make that claim based on the antipathy that so many Welsh people feel towards a neighbour who has and continues to exploit our land.
    Nope, as I have shown.

    A neighbour who buys up our villages and turns them into holiday ghetto’s, full of often trouble makers in Summer and ghost towns for the rest of the year, and that has priced our people out of the housing market in our own land by their actions.
    If you don't want them to be bought, stop selling them. Take it up with your countrymen who put it on the market, not the people who buy them.

    Who has systematically raped our valleys for coal, devastated our mountains for slate, takes our water and charges us more for our own water than the people in England pay.
    Most Welsh people I know don't share that attitude. It's heard of, but only because your minority is such a vocal one. There's plenty of coal, plenty of slate, and no lack of mountains. You know this, stop pretending.

    I remember old relatives of mine dying from “The Dust”, emphysema as a consequence of working in the coal mines.
    Indeed. Mining is a nasty business, and I'm glad the mines have been shut. We agree here.

    I remember the dreadful mess surrounding the “Phurnacite” plant at Abercwmboi, a mess that despite the plant having been closed for twenty years remains still as dreadful pollution not only where it was but down the whole of the Cynon valley. And that is just one example of many “souvenirs” the English have left us.
    I don't know Abercwmboi specifically, but I'm aware of the pollution in areas of South Wales, and that the Welsh Assembly Government have failed to press changes against Monsanto, whose contravention of laws on toxic waste has put the safety of the local population and environment at risk.

    That one so that their towns and cities could have smokeless fuel.
    Actually, a fair bit was used in Wales. And in the export market. But either way, it's good that the Welsh economy has moved on since then.

    They took our coal, and left US with the smoke. Nice.
    Already covered this.

    No, don’t mistake our dislike of the English as tribalism, it’s down to the actions of the English in our part of Great Britain.
    You're barking up the wrong tree, I'm afraid. Most Welsh know this, and hopefully with more education in Welsh history these unfortunate misconceptions will begin to break down.
    I sympathise with your grievances, but I'm under no illusions. I know Wales, I know the Welsh, and I know that the vast majority do not suffer their lives racked with bile and resentment as you do
    Last edited by Invictus_88; 22-04-10 at 18:43. Reason: Code error and typo.

  8. #33
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    And that previous post illustrates precisely why there is so much antipathy towards the English.

    Funny thing is that it's the same attitude that explains why in so many parts of the world there is the same antipathy to be found.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Not very flattering when you say it to the atheist. ;)
    I saw the funny side to that as well!

    I'm certain no sleight was intended.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyllgi View Post
    I saw the funny side to that as well!

    I'm certain no sleight was intended.

    No slight was intended. I probably should have written, "bless the Welsh people", or something along those lines.

    BTW, I'm no fan of conventional religion.

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    I think multiculti is good as long both sides try to get a long and do comprimses..in Germany their are many debates about it now a days ,because of a football game between Germany and Turkey ..:P

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    Multiculturalism you feel good or bad, depending on how you look or whatever you see as the color of the glass we look at it.

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    Is multuculturalism positive?

    I will not give an answer on that.

    It is to miss the point entirely.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Why are so much discussion about the supposed negativity of Multiculturalim?

    Because many people in the Firsl World sees current paterns of immigration to their countries, as negative.

    Why negative?

    For a number of reasons... some more deep or more true than others. Other based on pure prejudice... but that will be to miss the point, also.

    There are many reasons why people migrate, an no case is equal from country to contry or person to person. But massive emigration, specially massive economical refugees, GENERALLY are due to not well functioning economies in many "south" countries.

    And WHY does these countries don't develop faster? (In some cases, they even go a process of underdeveloping, as we speak).

    The saddest reason, is that some of these countries have everything to develop and grow fast... but they have corrupt and authoritarian regimes, MOST OF THE TIMES SUPPORTED BY THE WEST (generally, the most corrupt, the higher the support)... that expell their people, that later create a problem (either political, economical, or both) in said Western countries.

    Sad, very sad... and is almost maddening when you grasp it at full.

    However, there are for example the East Asian countries (e.g. see China, Japan and Korea, and many others), that generally didn't followed at all the recipes that in the last four or so decades, the West tried to imposse in most of the world... and that generally (said Asian countries) are not involved much in this fenomenon of massive migration.

    I don't see the solution, as it takes to acquire CONCIENCE that it is not a matter of if you like or not a concept of "multiculturalism".

    (positive, in an ideal world).

    Regards.
    Last edited by Sirius2b; 24-02-11 at 05:50.

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    Well, when you start something, you feel that you have to finish it.

    "Multiculturalism" is a different issue, say, in countries like Germany or Canada. For what I know, the issue is very different in both countries.

    I personally like multiculturalism, here, where I live... but then, here is not an issue.

    What I am really interesting at, is not if Multiculturalism by itself in abstract is positive or negative... but why, right now, is it an issue.

    What are the underlying objective reasons (demographical, economical, ideological, historical) so that there is so much debate about "Multiculturalism"?

    I believe that there are underlying trends and mechanisms.

    That suffice for now.

    Regards.

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    One correction Sirius, China is multicultural and multi lingual, and for quite a long time.

    Time will tell if China will hold together in future though.

    Probably the best example of multicultural country that is doing very well is Singapore.

    What could be the worse example? In Europe probably Yugoslavia and Soviet Union, I mean a very bad final result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    One correction Sirius, China is multicultural and multi lingual, and for quite a long time.
    When I spoke about the Asian countries I didn't mean they were not Multicultural, but that they followed their own economic models.

    I agree with what you expressed above.

    Probably the best example of multicultural country that is doing very well is Singapore.
    I agree in your positive appreciation... but I am not sure is the best.

    What could be the worse example? In Europe probably Yugoslavia and Soviet Union, I mean a very bad final result.
    As I say, I am not in this thread "in favor" or "against" Multiculturalism in an "objective" sense.

    (In the subjective sense, I like it... as a personal taste).

    What I was refering in my last to post above, was some aspects around the discussion of Multiculturalism, not Multiculturalism itself.

    Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    What I am really interesting at, is not if Multiculturalism by itself in abstract is positive or negative... but why, right now, is it an issue.
    I think because right now massive numbers of people are moving around the world like never before and native populations are feeling under threat. But like multiculturism or not, large economies do need large labour forces to remain healthy and continue to grow so immigration has to be the inevitable result.

    I grew up with the children of immigrants from all over the word because of multiculturism and it was a wonderful experience but it really depends on the attitude of the immigrants themselves and the attitude of the host country toward the immigrants whether or not it is successful. Only time will tell.

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    Bringing bad genes into good genes will only hurt the good genes in terms of fitness.

    If you are culture, and bad genes are flowing into your country, why on earth would it be favorable?

    If you are a culture, and good genes are flowing into your country, you may approve, but given too much flow - your own culture will change - which was shaped for thousands of years - and cultural problems may arise between new and old. Why? Because the culture of your own is a product of survival, it works, any changes are not guaranteed to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    What I am really interesting at, is not if Multiculturalism by itself in abstract is positive or negative... but why, right now, is it an issue.
    It's an issue because it has been going on since air transportation became a feasible way of gene flow.

    THink about this.

    In the beginning all was fine, you experienced new people, nothing was harmed. Over time, more and more of those people came into your towns. Now they try to over-run the neighborhood, they don't contribute, and they stay to themselves. They don't speak the same language. Now what? They commit more crime, the people have to pay their welfare, medical care, etc. They take more money from the economy than they produce.

    Economic times are hard, but getting better. People don't want to pay for people that have little genetic relation to them. The question of multiculturalism comes up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    It's an issue because it has been going on since air transportation became a feasible way of gene flow.
    I think that the former post and this quote, deals with Eugenics, and well, ideas of racial superiority.

    I personally do not want to deal separatelly "cultural" and "racial" issues.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    In the beginning all was fine, you experienced new people, nothing was harmed. Over time, more and more of those people came into your towns. Now they try to over-run the neighborhood, they don't contribute, and they stay to themselves. They don't speak the same language. Now what? They commit more crime, the people have to pay their welfare, medical care, etc. They take more money from the economy than they produce.
    This is a pretty well summarize the compound of fears, real or imagined, that people in receiving countries have, and effectively make Multiculturalism (I rather say, massive immigration) a so actual issue.

    However, whole countries like Australia, Canada and the USA were constructed that way... with massive immigration.

    About the USA... If they had only received the initial wave that constructed the 13 colonies of New England they could have not be able to effectively populate the center and the west (for good or wrong).

    Economic times are hard, but getting better. People don't want to pay for people that have little genetic relation to them. The question of multiculturalism comes up.
    O.K.

    However, it is difficult to say if in all the cases immigrants improve or worsen the economic situation.

    It could not be proven, for you cannot put or take out the people to test it. And even if you do, you cannot control everything, and say that a point about it, is completedly proved.

    What it is truth, is that many people in the receiving countries feel these fears/grevances, and that generate hate... against people generally more weak. It helps the creation of radical nativistic political movements.

    Thererefore, I believe that when it is posible, the people in those countries that plan to migrate, have conscience that the best option will be to stay and try to improve their own countries.

    If there is not massive immigration, the reaction of rejection could be less fueled, and the good experiences of @Antigone, as multicultural emigrants, will be more generalized.

    Regards.

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