Language barrier and acceptance.

ragedaddy said:
Hey Misa J.,
However, in Japan it seems like there is no expectations for foreigners living there to learn the language (these are just my observations, so I could be wrong).
Yeah this is very subjective...but I guess Japanese never really says they expect you learn Japanese. But they would prefer you to speak Japanese most certainly. Most people I met here speaks Japanese directly at me not even asking if I do understand their language or not. when I told them I don't speak Japanese very well, they just shy out or shut up completely.

ax
 
TwistedMac said:
The sad part is when a Swede and a Dane turn to english to understand eachother (and it happens a lot) our languages are so much alike, we really should be able to understand eachother, but many don't.

I have a sadder story....an American and an Australian turning to Japanese to understand each other.
 
@Mike Cash,
I agree, that its a sad, and funny at the same time.
@MisaJ.
In answer to your question about english. I think that the spainsih would be the most widely spoken, then it would have chinese, russian, arabic, swahili, french, and then japanese. Scary how though people can be 10,000 miles apart, they can still understand each other. Case in point, I lived in teh Midwestern US, I have relatives who live in the South, and they speak english, but with a accent, and a dialect of their own. I can understand them, because I can speak their dialect, though most of my extended family thinks their crazy. But thats just me.LOL

@ Rock Lee

How did a get the Arnold banner, its really cool.
 
You've Got A Great Line, Threre!

RockLee said:
I don't mind her error's and she doesn't mind mine..we just correct eachother and kinda remember the errors. :)
Hey, there's some wisdom there that might be the solution to all those problems out there. I think it's a skill everyone (especially the hard-headed ones, that is :eek:kashii: ) should learn till they get it just right.
They should be drilled on it and tested on it for a certification sticker to go on their IDs, drivers' license, passports, so any intollerant people don't get to....anywhere.
However, I don't think any school or curriculum includes this valuable lesson unfortunately. Other than in language schools, maybe?
This is a great line in JFORUM. Wisdom from the language learner's point of view. What a great contribution to learning!
 
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Barriers within, Barriers without

Responding to MisaJ's question about language barriers and tolerance,

I think there are at least two different kinds of situations that involve strikingly different language attitides; that between two native speakers and that between a native speaker and a foreigner.

My first language is Korean, and I barely understand all the 8 major dialects of my people. (People in the sense that I am not excluding N. Korea.) My Grandfather spoke the NorthWestern dialect, and I remember in my youth that I could never understand him very well. I wished very much to understand his stories even for just five minutes, but that never happened, and he didn't speak standar Korean, either. The problem was, he would like to tell me a story, but wouldn't let me interrupt; or rather I should say I thought it impolite to interrupt him. We never had any problems because of it, but I regret not finding a way to learn his language, which sounded very foreign to me. That's one sad story that I'll never forget.

Even now if I hear a regional kind of Korean being spoken, there are words that evade me, and I have to ask, either right away or later on, to fully understand what was said. We have a standard language, but the local varieties are so diverse. It's not all bad, because it keeps the language rich and alive.

When you talk to a foreigner, everybody is very tolerant and understanding, especially if that person is a guest visiting. If the host can make himself understood in English, they usually have no problem communicating. However, in my job as a language instructor years back, I've noticed the employer who speaks fluent English not trying hard enough to use English when foreign instructors are present. He was breaking the rules of ettiquette, which I think is pretty universal, of using English when the foreigner can't speak Korean. I disagree with his practices, but I guess when the foreigner is your employee, at least some empoyers can be mean. It might be related to language and authority, a strange mix, but some people think if you speak the other's language, that is equal to submission somehow?

TwistedMac said:
The Swedish language leaves a great margin of error, and sentences where every other word is wrong are easily comprehendable by a swede.
I've noticed the same in standard Korean. I think, to a degree, English is like that, too. I wonder if there are only mild dialectal differences in Sweden, or people are acculturated in all the dialects? Lucky Swedes!
The sad part is when a Swede and a Dane turn to english to understand eachother (and it happens a lot) our languages are so much alike, we really should be able to understand eachother, but many don't.
I think it can also arise from politeness; politeness in the sense that no one has to give in to the other. This may be a sensetive topic, but I've heard there is some kind of rivalry between Swedes and Danes? If that's true, then it makes perfect sense to me that politeness might be a reason to choose a neutral language, possibly English is an acceptable common medium. A way to be equals and save faces, especially if there are other people who may overhear the conversation?

In my language, especially influenced by the older generation, there are so many taboo words and topics that sometimes I prefer to use English if the other person speaks it too. I believe English has much less red tape when it comes to words and topics. I'm sure the younger generation speak a far freer form of Korean, but strange, my own language being a cause of hindrance or barrier to communication. Has anyone from any language experienced this, or is it just me?
 
You can catch someone rambling on and on about Japanese people insisting on talking to him in English (and such) here.

http://academy3.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1104353924/65-67

The ironic thing is that he's posting to a Japanese bulletin board ... but he's writing in English. :relief: Maybe he's not so confident of his Japanese skills as he's making out. :blush:
 
PaulTB said:
You can catch someone rambling on and on about Japanese people insisting on talking to him in English (and such) here.

http://academy3.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1104353924/65-67

The ironic thing is that he's posting to a Japanese bulletin board ... but he's writing in English. :relief: Maybe he's not so confident of his Japanese skills as he's making out. :blush:
Give hime a break, Paul! He's had a hard life, and he's got it all twisted around.

I think he's just too obsessed with the idea of learning Japanese.
So obsessed, so eager to prove his achievement, that the friendly Japanese who offered to use English are seen as a threat to his ego, seen as "SELFISH." I think he's deluded.

Poor guy! He's created his own hell, and now he's being laughed at for it!
But you know Paul, since we're on the topic of "tolerance," couldn't we include him, too? What do you think?
 
lexico said:
But you know Paul, since we're on the topic of "tolerance," couldn't we include him, too? What do you think?
Oh I don't know that we're laughing at him /that/ hard.

I wouldn't even have smirked if he'd at least tried to write that in Japanese.
 
PaulTB said:
Oh I don't know that we're laughing at him /that/ hard.

I wouldn't even have smirked if he'd at least tried to write that in Japanese.
Since you mention languages, I went back to examine his English; it isn't that good, either. I mean for a native-born British. Cokneyed, somehow. Maybe he's ashamed of his strange English, so hates the friendly Japanese for reminding him? Actually, after alll his struggle with the "selfish" Japanese, he seems to have lost all his ability to communicate in Japanese, especially on a Japanese board.

On second thought, I begin to think the whole thing was made up, plagiarized from some stand-up comedy. It's a joke, Paul, definitely. They got you!
 
lexico said:
On second thought, I begin to think the whole thing was made up, plagiarized from some stand-up comedy.
Nah, it's far too rambling to be stand-up comedy - he'd be bottled off the stage before he got to the end.

You're right about the English not being very good - but lots of people write lousy English nowadays.
 
PaulTB said:
Nah, it's far too rambling to be stand-up comedy - he'd be bottled off the stage before he got to the end.

You're right about the English not being very good - but lots of people write lousy English nowadays.
You're right. I guess I was wrong about that, but it's funny how people's eagerness to practice a new language can backfire, even unto (mild) hatred.
Also, clear and succinct language doesn't come naturally. Especially if you're writing in a foreign language. I'd like to read your Japanese site, but I'll have to wait till I learn Japanese. Should have done it in school.

mikecash said:
an American and an Australian turning to Japanese to understand each other.
You can't be serious, mate?
 
by lexico, My first language is Korean, and I barely understand all the 8 major dialects of my people. (People in the sense that I am not excluding N. Korea.) My Grandfather spoke the NorthWestern dialect, and I remember in my youth that I could never understand him very well.
I had a Korean friend who tried to teach me how to say "pa" sound in Korean, and she told me that there were 5 different ways to say that sound, which she failed to help me distinguish.

What makes Korean dialects so different from each other that you even have a hard time understanding? Is it the accent? Or, are there gramatical differences?
 
The Korean P, the Dialects, and the Snail

misa.j said:
I had a Korean friend who tried to teach me how to say "pa" sound in Korean, and she told me that there were 5 different ways to say that sound, which she failed to help me distinguish.
Sorry for the late reply, Misa.J! :blush: I wanted to study this before answering; I quess getting questions really makes you learn things. I didn't find much, but ruled out some doubts about my own udnerstanding! LOL

Coming to your first question. Are you sure it wasn't 3 different "pa"s? :)
All I know is that Korean has a three-way-disctinction in the consonants.

1. unvoiced p (like the French p but softer, i.e. without tensing your vocal cords)
발 /pal/ "foot"

2. tense p (like French p but stronger, i.e. with tensing the vocal cords)
빨 /?pal/ "to suck"

3. aspirated p (close to English p, which has the strong puffing out of air)
팔 /phal/ "arm"

The difficulty you had with your Korean friend is probably due to the different consonant sets in Japanese which I hear has a two-way-distinction;

1. unvoiced p
2. voiced b
(I'm a little hesitent to write p becasue I read somewhere that Japanese P's has changes into F's or H's. :eek:kashii: Not sure, but this may also have something to do???)

Korean doesn't have tones like Mandarin Chinese; which happens to have 4 distinct tones; high, rising, dipping, and falling; plus one neutral tone which is simply not having any tonality when a character falls on the second syllable. You could say Mandarin Chinese has 5 tones; but that's Mandarin. :relief:
And I also wonder whether your friend wasn't including the F and V sounds on top of the 3 Korean p's; with so many loan words from Englsih, French, and what not, quite a few people can pronounce these "foreign varieties of p's." I wonder?

When speakers from two languages having different sound systems hear each other, the effect is not that predictable. It actually takes quite some time being exposed to the sounds until one begins to get some feel for the other's sounds. :)
misa.j said:
What makes Korean dialects so different from each other that you even have a hard time understanding? Is it the accent? Or, are there gramatical differences?
I would have to correct myself about the dialects; there are 6 major Korean dialects, not 8 as I said ealier. Coming to your question, the difficulty I had with my grandfather was both difference in the speech sounds and vocabulary. I gradually picked up his vocabulary, but the sound barrier (not the 330m/s barrier of course :)) was impossible to overcome.

There is one major dialect which involves this type of difficulty; it is the dialect of the Cheju Island.
The Cheju Dialect is quite impossible to understand for mainlanders unless you've lived there for a while.
The other major dialects on the Korean peninsula may have a slight accent or a strong intonation but the sounds themselve are not that different.

My difficulty with the regional dialects come mainly from the words.
Words are quite varied. I only found out this year that there are at least a dozen ways to say "snail" in Korean.
In how many ways can you say "snail" in Japanese? :)
 
Hey lexico,
Thank you so much for your reply.
by lexico: The difficulty you had with your Korean friend is probably due to the different consonant sets in Japanese which I hear has a two-way-distinction;

1. unvoiced p
2. voiced b
You know, after reading your post, I started to remember how my friend kept telling me to say the sound softly or strongly, so your explanation makes a lot of sense. :)

by lexico: My difficulty with the regional dialects come mainly from the words.
Words are quite varied. I only found out this year that there are at least a dozen ways to say "snail" in Korean.
In how many ways can you say "snail" in Japanese?
I only know one way to say "snail" in Japanese,
"KATATSUMURI" that is.
BTW, I know Korean and Japanese share a few nouns such as "KIRIN" for a giraffe, umm that is the only one I can think of right now, and I thought it was quite interesting.

I recently learned some Okinawan dialect, which seems almost different language. It must be facsinating to listen to old Okinawan people talking in their dialect.
 
Thank you for posting back.

I'm glad it helped! I didn't know exactly what to say; so I kind of rambled on. :relief:
misa.j said:
I only know one way to say "snail" in Japanese,
"KATATSUMURI" that is.
I recently learned some Okinawan dialect, which seems almost different language. It must be facsinating to listen to old Okinawan people talking in their dialect.
One reason I asked you about the word for snail is because I love snails; (/TALPHENG'I/ in Korean) in fact I have about 30 water snails in a fish tank. They are a very happy creature. I know for a fact that Spongebob's pet Gary is no exaggeration! Wonderful pets, too. They'll eat almost anything, and clean up after! :)

But the other reason was; I've read in a textbook about Mr. Yanagita Kunio (1875-1962) who studied snail words in Japan; In his time, he collected 4 different snail words propagating outwards from Kyoto; let me list them.

....dedemusi (central Kyoto)
....maimai
....katatumuri
....tuburi (outskirts of the city)


I've noticed your word for snail is Mr. Kunio's third snail word. (Where have you heard people say /KATATSUMURI/? Do you have a place name so I can find it on a map?)
But I would really like to ask you this; does any other form sound familiar, even as a provincial or kiddy word? And might you know what snail is in Okinawan? Or even Ainu?

misa.j said:
BTW, I know Korean and Japanese share a few nouns such as "KIRIN" for a giraffe, umm that is the only one I can think of right now, and I thought it was quite interesting.
?i?? /kirin/ is indeed the same in Japanese & Korean. It is both the mythological "unicorn" and the giraffe we see at the zoo! :cool:
A couple I found interesting are

HARA (Jap. "field")......: PO:L (Kor. "field, mud patch")
FATA (Jap. "field")......: PATH (Kor. "dry field")
MORI (Jap. "forest")....: MOI (Kor. "mountain")
MURE (Jap. "multitude): MURI (Kor. "multitude")
NATA (Jap. "sickle")....: NAS (Kor. "sickle")
WADA(Jap. "navigate"): PATA(Kor."sea")
NAY...(Ainu "river").....: NAI(Kor. "river")

There are tons of others I can quote, but I wondered if you thought these Modern Japanese words and meaning are written correctly? And are any of them old usage, ancient Old Japanese, not used now?

misa.j said:
It must be facsinating to listen to old Okinawan people talking in their dialect.
Where did you go to learn Okinawan? Are there classes?
Once I've learned enough Japanese, I would like to study Okinawan and Ainu! I can hardly wait for that! :wave:
 
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lexico said:
I've noticed your word for snail is Mr. Kunio's third snail word. (Where have you heard people say /KATATSUMURI/? Do you have a place name so I can find it on a map?)
But I would really like to ask you this; does any other form sound familiar, even as a provincial or kiddy word? And might you know what snail is in Okinawan? Or even Ainu?
I grew up in Kantou area of Japan where people speak "Hyoujungo" which with, the most books are written, but also "DENDEN MUSHI" is used in a song about snail for kids. I remembered after reading your post. :p

lexico said:
Where did you go to learn Okinawan? Are there classes?
My husband was into Okinawan style of Karate a while ago, and he taught me a few Okinawan words that he had learned from a book.
 
Thank you, Misa.J

Thanks for sharing your personal memory.
Now I can picture the snails in my mind,
with people in Kantou Japan who call them katatsumuri,
and children who sing den~den~mushi!
It has become a memory for all to share,
till the end of the computer age!
Take care, Misa.J! :wave:
 
I have been learning French for four years I still make mistakes in French. There are some sounds I just don't pronounce well. With Eastern European people, I can only understand the young ones, the people over 30 except one most speak an alien language to me. The old French people some are rather nice but most are not fond of people who can't speak French. I have learned to understand all sorts of accents, but really have trouble with people who pronounce words with too many R sounds. I still have difficulties to understand Canadian french, I prefer to speak English with them.
 
...I think the difference between Japan and the US is that in America the nationals are expecting that if you are living there you should know or at least be attempting to learn the language. However, in Japan it seems like there is no expectations for foreigners living there to learn the language (these are just my observations, so I could be wrong).

This is a good observation. Here in the US, there is a social expectation that people who move here will make an honest attempt to learn English, and due to this, there is widespread tolerance of, and even acceptance of, people who are making that honest attempt. As much as people around the world claim that Americans are boorish and rude, this is one aspect where Americans may actually be more tolerant than others - criticizing a foreigner for "poor" pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary is simply not socially acceptable, and those who do criticize are looked down on as rude (cf. "Grammar Nazi"). Being seen as a "Grammar Nazi" is not cool.
 
This is a good observation. Here in the US, there is a social expectation that people who move here will make an honest attempt to learn English, and due to this, there is widespread tolerance of, and even acceptance of, people who are making that honest attempt. As much as people around the world claim that Americans are boorish and rude, this is one aspect where Americans may actually be more tolerant than others - criticizing a foreigner for "poor" pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary is simply not socially acceptable, and those who do criticize are looked down on as rude (cf. "Grammar Nazi"). Being seen as a "Grammar Nazi" is not cool.

I think in Anglophone countries there is more tolerance towards ethnic minorities and their languages. In NSW Australia, where they have more funding than other states, there are even jobs where they hire people to take care of ethnic minorities with language difficulties.

In France, people are less tolerant of ethnic minorities and their differences, they don't approve of ethnic minorities keeping their culture. One French teacher I know from Thuré even went ahead to criticize what people can or cannot do in another country, just because the norm does not fit his norm. This is a Frenchman from a little village, who has little contacts with foreigners. I find his vision very narrow minded. He is a hypocrite because he cannot accept how in another country, people can live their lives this way and yet he wants to befriend with foreigners.

By contrast my French friends who are very international are quite the opposite of him. Having said that, there are many of those types of French or other Europeans who do not like changes. In some villages in France, they dislike anything different from them, they are so conservative to an extent that they just keep on getting married within the people in their village and they produce children with disabilities more often then those who mix more.
 
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