How am I responsible?!?!?!

[mecharmor23]

First and foremost let me explain a few things.

1) I admit that I am chinese, but I don't believe in hate. You are welcomed to your opinions and I won't flame you.

2) This post has NOTHING to do with Japan btw. Japan is not the topic in this thread.

3) This thread focuses on the average hard-working, middle-class chinese people, who have little to no political power. Such as engineers working for IBM or Microsoft, Electicians and construction workers etc.

And here is the main question:

HOW is the average chinese person 100% responsible for their governments actions?!?! People here and in JapanToday seems to make no distinction between the chinese people and the chinese government. HOW AM I RESPONSIBLE for the oppression of tibet??

The people with the biggest mouth on the boards against the chinese seems to be westerners, especially canadians and americans. for example a canadian representative such as www.paulfromm.com. Moreover it seems that westerners hate the chinese more than the japanese do.

Search any political forum on the internet and you will find alot of americans and white-supremicist groups bashing china day and night.

Perhaps westerners can no longer hate jews without heavy penalties. So they instead find a new scapegoat, where punishments are less harsh. I mean people can go out of the way to discriminate the chinese as a race and nobody cares on the boards. Making no distinction between the average person and the people in power. Really now folks How am I responsible fore the government's sins??? Are you able to control YOUR government?? For the yanks here who don't like their president, can YOU do anything, would it make sense to have YOU being held responsible for what your army did in Iraq??

Do you believe that I am soley responsible for everything that has happened in the entire history of china?? If yes which most westerners on Jtoday would like to think, then I need a really good reason from you.

1) the communists came to power in China after world war II. How am I responsible?!?! I am not born then and I have absolutley no relation with any government member of china. So how am I responisble?? Some folks here tend to think so.

2) The communists under Mao commited many attrocities in their quest for power. I am against it. But I am still responsible??? How and Why???

3) You know the chinese sub that ended up in japanese territory? well according to alot of people on Jtoday, it appears that all and every single 1.3 billion chinese citizens are responsible for it including me who is not living in china and has absolutley no connection with china except being born there. DID I PILOT THE SUBMARINE INTO JAPAN MYSELF??!?! I am personally responsible for that?!? where is the logic guys?!?!

Am I wrong about you guys? Do you mean the chinese government or the average chinese person who is working in another country in a private company that has no connection with the government??

Bottom line how am I responsible??? Is there really alot of westerners, such as usa and canada that hates all chinese??

Your opinion??

[Tateishi]

That's just like saying how is the Japanese people of today resposible for what happened in China over 50 years ago. Expescially considering that the Japanese people back then and the Japanese people now are almost completely different values. But you still get plenty of chinese people despising Japanese simply for being Japanese, but you also have Chinese people who love Japan and people who don't care at all. Just say people will be people. Isn't a country mostly identified by it's government anyways? So when people make these comments they are probably talking about the government and not an individual person.

[The AnteLyfe]

I think people hate people of every and all races here in America, its just that some hatreds are tolerated more than others. Hatred for Chinese is more tolerated then say... hatred of hispanics... because throughout the past 50 years our government has painted your country as a communist menace... It is a well known fact that your country has the largest population globally, and will most likely be the center of global power within this next century...

Also (and I hope I don't sound like a bigot when I say this), from what we know as Americans, in your country, families are only allowed to have one child, and since typically families would rather have a male than a female, it is widely feared that soon there will be an entire generation mostly comprised of males in China. Males typically mean aggression, and people who are non-Chinese are scared, so we poke fun and generalize.

Think of it in terms of whoever is in the limelight will be hated. Right now the United States is hated across the world, and Americans are hated for re-electing the current administration. If the United States were any other country (thus not influencing the world to the same extent), they would be less hated, because the dominant country would garner all the hatred.

[Winter]

Reminds me of the concept of reparation funding.

Somehow the ancestors of slaveowners have to pay the ancestors of slaves.

Never quite understood it.

[TwistedMac]

I was gonna say "ofcourse noone hates you as such, but if you agree with the "faulty" values of your government people will dislike you, just like we do with everyone that doesn't share our morale views," but looking at the ante's post, It seems I'd only be speaking for most of europe O_o

About "dominant country".. that's pretty high and mighty right there, dont'cha think?.. we don't exactly feel dominated by america over here O_o
We do feel threatened though.
You're a power to be reckoned with. If Iraq were to declare war on the EU, we could just pull an america and bomb the crap out of them.

But if America were to declare war on us, that'd be a third world war, and we don't want that.
It's out of fear for senseless wars America's current war-mongering administration is feared/hated.

But anyway, it all comes down to morale views and wether they match your own or not.

[The AnteLyfe]

TwistedMac: I meant "dominant" as in having the most global influence. An interesting way to look at it is every country goes through a colonial stage (right before their subsequent downfall)... Countries build themselves up, then go off to colonize elsewhere. Greece, Rome, Spain, England, U.S., at one time or another have "dominated" world affairs. They don't dominate in every single facet (the U.S. for example will never dominate in technology, I think Europe right now is gonna build a fusion reactor without "American" approval, just to name an example), but they dominate in terms of having the most diplomatic sway.

In some ways you could say China has started its colonization "era" with Tibet, yet since every historic empire reached further and further across the world, I would say China's colonization era hasn't started yet. All theory.

[Fantt]

Mecharmor, most people are stupid.

Ya know how dumb the average person is? That implies that half of everyone else is even dumber.

It is difficult for me to imagine that a person who thinks for himself would put all 1 billion+ Chinese into one box. Sadly, most people choose not to think for themselves.

Personally, I don't hate you and I don't hate the Chinese government nor do I blame you for any action of the Chinese government that you don't have a direct hand in. I don't think the Chinese government has the best interest of the Chinese people in mind - they have their own best interests in mind. That's pretty typical for governments - see the US gov't, the EU, etc etc.

Don't stress too much about it. Anyone you'd like to be friends with doesn't hate you because your Chinese and wouldn't blame the Chinese people for the actions of the Chinese government. Those who do and would don't deserve your respect.

[babar-san]

well, im american and i have no ill feelings about chinese, or china. in fact, i think china is a beautifull country, with 7000 years of cultural development and social graces that westerners simply do not understand, in laymans terms, westerners that are prejudice towards chinese are just ignorant to its culture. any educated westerner or japanese should make the distinction between the motives of the individual and the government they live under. we all understand that your government is not controlled by its people, but many democratic societies have a vague and limited view of communism and what it means, and how it works. this i think is the root of many problems with regards to international relations with china. i am well aware of the less than polished relationship between japan and china, and knuckleheads are still knuckleheads. whether its white supremists or racist japanese. so please, dont harbor the thought that everyone has something against you for what you are, because i certainly dont:)

[mad pierrot]

I think the question at hand should be,

Are we responsible for all the idiots in the world?

They're everywhere, aren't they? Getting back to topic, I don't think most Westerners hate Chinese people or anything horrible like that. It's just that the idiots in the crowd usually yell the loudest, and that's what you're hearing. Pay them no heed.

[Duo]

i think that in an inderect way the citizens are responsible for their government. The american people have elected Bush for a second term, therefore they support his decisions, and in such manner, the silence of the chinese citizens towards their government, means that inderectly they are responsible for the communism in their country. I said INderectly, and no I don't blame the chinese for their government's action, well maybe a lil ;) ( jokinnnnn)

[mad pierrot]

I think it depends on the case. I mean, would you say Jewish people in Germany in the 1930's were responsible for Hitler? Then again, as you noted, citizens are responsible for their government. Jewish people in Fascist Germany were second class citizens at best, de facto nothing more than slave labor.

What about people who fled, like Einstein? Would you hold him responsible? Responsibility falls on those in power, but who has the power is questionable.

[babar-san]

satan was responsible for hitler.... and well, maybe sifilis as well, along with a bad case of over zealous nationalist, middle class germans, looking for an excuse to oust jewish ownership of banking and industry.

[Duo]

I think it depends on the case. I mean, would you say Jewish people in Germany in the 1930's were responsible for Hitler? Then again, as you noted, citizens are responsible for their government. Jewish people in Fascist Germany were second class citizens at best, de facto nothing more than slave labor.

What about people who fled, like Einstein? Would you hold him responsible? Responsibility falls on those in power, but who has the power is questionable.

no, i wouldn't hold those guys responsible at all, i was only pointing out that with the attitude such of our friend here, of helplessness, that leads to doing nothing, and in my view, doing nothing against such types of governments is sometimes like accepting them, giving them legitimacy. But in any case, it's rather hard to see someone risk their life for ideals, so i guess mine is an idealistic attitude.

[TwistedMac]

If I was in an army doing wrong (exactly what my morals told me I wasn't supposed to be doing) I'd stills tay until I found a band of rebels to join, and my efforts for the army wouldn't dwindle until I joined the other side.. I would never try to make a rebel group, nor would I go solo and try to sabotage stuff in my army by myself..

It's not that I want to be with the stronger side.. but I want to have a side. I want to know at the end of the day that I'm among friends.

what can I say? I'm a follower, not a leader.
And I think most people are.
That's why someone can hold on to power so firmly once they have it.

So yeah. Idealistic attitude.

[Duo]

yeah I guess so, like I said above though, few people have the determination or will to do anything about it, they don't have to be extraordinary people, sometimes the average citizen won't take no more of it.

[No-name]

Interesting topic...

No one should have to apologize for the actions of some one else. No one should be blamed or feel guilty for something they didn't do. Does it mean anything to anyone if I say I am sorry for the actions of my father?

Does a gesture by a nation do anything to heal the damage it did in its past?

Sometimes a sincere apology, a heartfelt statement of regret, or some form of redress goes a long way to healing a rift between people.

Would it matter to the Chinese people who weren't even born during WWII if they recieved an apology from the Japanese people who weren't yet born for crimes committed During the war?

When modern Germans make gestures to the children of Holocaust survivors, when they dedicate memorials, open museums or fund scholarships-- I think it is widely appreciated.

When Gerald Ford appologized to Japanese American internees and sent redress, it helped to heal some old wounds.

[ippolito]

Well the problem is also in Europe...we think that China is growing so fast that will be most important enemy (in commerce), in the next 10 years.
In a part of Rome we have a small chinatown...and chinese do not disturb people... sometime i went shopping there...I paid a pair of jeans 5 euros....very cheap.
What happen in this year that police discover several secret factories
in which children were slaves working 12 hours a day always with the electrical light and pay them few euros a day.
For this reason no european known factory cannot sale jeans at 5 euros ....but this is unfair competition as our factories must pay
adult workers and tax on, social security etc...
so the same pair of jeans should cost 20 euros the most convenient one.
Unfortunly for those children it is very popular to use chinese children and young women to work as slaves, by chinese bosses.
So from that day I do not and I will never buy anything made in China.
We have thousends of illigal chinese toys without CE stamp
(European Community standards and test to verify of not dangerous
for children)...last year there were some injuries in children using chinese black market toys.
Now in this period were found goods with CE stamp not original and chinese are making copies of Valentino, Bulgari, Fendi articles always better a sometimes is difficolt to say wich is the original.
But the price is very convinient....

I understand that there are milions and milions of good chinesese as all the world but it seems that there are also milions of agly and bad people
that are using their chieldren to make good business and press our industry.
Here and I suppose in all Europe as Us and Canada a person that is using children like that goes directly in jail.

[mecharmor23]

Is JToday one of those really extreme forums?? Because whenever a Japanese or Taiwan issue comes up, nobody bothers or even makes an effort to simmer the flames and too often people from all different sides including westerners jumping into the fray and adding fuel to fire. There are few bad yankees in there that loves to attack Asians as a race and going as far as justifiying the US invasion of Iraq AND the Abu Gharib attrocities. Search the news section and try to find a poster named "soundcore" and you will know what I mean.

Is Asian unity that bad?? Hey the Asian communites in Canada and US have PROVEN that Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, Filipinos CAN coexist. Even people at www.japan-guide.com tries to simmer down sino-japanese tensions between members.

You can talk about anything on Jtoday forums, but the moment Asian politics get mentioned it becomes a personal warfare between members.

Does anyone here promote Asian unity?? Its funny also how people claim that they can win a war in this era.

[ippolito]

I would like to promote global unity against many problems that are everywere
including comunism....dictatures...slaves where ever they are in Asia in Erope etc...Asian unity would be grat if would not be comunist countries like north
korea or china.
I would like a korean unity like had Germany .....it is possible????

[mecharmor23]

Why can't asians get along on these forums?? It is funny how the rules of the messageboard says that racism is not allowed and yet the moderator doesn't seem to care when an entire race is stereotyped. Have anyone of you actually went to japantoday forums? The japanese, chinese, taiwanese and korean constantly smoke each other. One side always posts the sins and mistakes of the other. "so he killed someone too" is so overused that is to be considered overkill. so if:

koreans think japanese are inferior by using "hey you did that too"
japanese think korean are inferior by using "hey you did that too"
chinese think japanese are inferior by using "hey you did that too"
japanese think chinese are inferior by using "hey you did that too"
tawianese think chinese are inferior by using "hey you did that too"
chinese think taiwanese are inferior by using "hey you did that too"

Anyone from one of these countries can name change, learn the culture and language of the other side and nobody on the other side will notice you as the "enemy" or as the forumers on japantoday would like to call it. How can one side hate the other when the other side is almost identical to yours??? Really, how can you racially discriminate a people who looks almost identical to yours???

An british person can go into asia and claim himself american, canadian, german, french, irish, dutch, polish, etc.... and he will be believed. Besides, Europe has been sucessfully united, why can't asia?? and why do so many people absolutley HATE making friends with the chinese. Convientantly taiwanese and chinese have same languages, lastnames etc. so if I come across a chinese hater, I will declare myself taiwanese and they will still fall for it. I have a hard time finding why people with so many similarities can hate each other so much????

I mean maybe I should consider changing my name to a Japanese one even. Then maybe people will stop hating me for being chinese. I mean is the difference between the orientals really so big that a war is necessary?? Why is japantoday forums so chaotic?? and nobody bothers to moderate the racism.

Do you know alot of chinese friends who actually gets along with taiwanese, korean and japanese?? I remember hearing somewhere that their DNA has so much in common that only your name can determine whether you are chinese,korean,taiwanese or japanese. Is it true?? If so then why the useless squabbling???

To be honest, I am feeling so depressed, inferior and broken at the fact that I can't seem to belong in any group or category. Being an asian-american, I find life sometimes difficult to put up with pro-KKK skinheads at school and at work. I was considering joining an asian comunity in hopes of making myself proud of my heritege.

But these forums seem to create such a disaster to the level to the point where I wonder if I should be ashamed.

There is no ethnic group I know of that is more hated than the chinese and I really don't know why. And Chinese immigrants are the least welcome in a foreign country yet the most hardworking people. the chinese migrate because they are afraid of the government and it is not part of a communist scheme to take over the world as some of you might think. I don't believe in communism because the government owns you to the point where you are considered mere property. How can one ever be proud in a country where your government sees you as a mere sub-human object?? That is what communism make you think you are and I hate it.

I am in a capitalist country to excercise my abilities as a human. I want to streatch my thinking skills to the limit. I don't want to waste a brain that is given by nature. You CAN'T be somebody in a communist state.

Have anyone of you actually witnessed anti-chinese atitude in real life?? is it as bad and as grand a scale as on japantoday forums?? Have you witnessed asians actually getting together regardless of nationality?? Do they fight?

From my observations on the internet, it appears that at least 80% of the people from all across the internet hate the chinese as a race. No doubt the figure in real life could be as high as 87-90% of the 6 billion people that absolutley wants to destroy the chinese as a race. Can you debunk that 90% figure?? I have yet to visit an asian forum where chinese arent hated.

People have gone into chinese, taiwanese and korean forums to bash the chinese. Same in gaming forums and all so few people admit themselves chinese.

[mad pierrot]

Why can't asians get along on these forums??

If you look closely, I think you'll see that it's not just Asian people who can't get along. (Take a look at the Bush threads.) Aside from that, I disagree. More people are getting along here than there are fighting, including Asian people. If you go looking for discontent, you will always find it.

Have you witnessed asians actually getting together regardless of nationality?? Do they fight?

Yes I have witnessed many Asian people expressing solidarity between East-Asian nations. I suggest you go to a UCAN meeting on a college campus.

Anyone from one of these countries can name change, learn the culture and language of the other side and nobody on the other side will notice you as the "enemy" or as the forumers on japantoday would like to call it.

You might be a little off, but I think I agree with your point here. That mindless fighting you describe is ignorant.

From my observations on the internet, it appears that at least 80% of the people from all across the internet hate the chinese as a race. No doubt the figure in real life could be as high as 87-90% of the 6 billion people that absolutley wants to destroy the chinese as a race. Can you debunk that 90% figure?? I have yet to visit an asian forum where chinese arent hated.

I can understand how you feel, but remember, the internet doesn't accurately reflect reality. It's ridiculous to say that 87-90% of 6 billion people hate Chinese people. There is no need to debunk your figure since it's no more than your guess.

Remember, if I wanted to know why A hates B, and went posting comments about A, chances are some would see and reply back, reinforcing your own assumptions. Don't believe everything you read, and don't give up hope. If you feel you are being treated unfairly here, notify a moderator (like me), refrain from making personal attacks, and we'll do what we can to solve the problem.

[No-name]

Mecharmor- I hear your frustration. Anti-asian sentimate can run high, but I think you can find a lot of places where it is not that prevalent. (College campuses, the technical and profesional world, SoCal's southbay, and the bay area) In the US most people that look at me can't tell what my ethnic background is. My best friend is half Korean. My other friend is Chinese. His Girlfriend is Vietnamese. My sensei is Puero Rican/Filipino. My wife is Creole/Mexican. We all get along fine.

I wouldn't go to Wisconsin right now though. Anti-Hmong feelings are running high.

[sgt. Pepper]

I don't think chinese-racism is common here in Sweden. I had never heard that the chinese exerienced racism often until now.

[mecharmor23]

Do you know why the chinese are so hated?? I mean the chinese are more hated then the jews. (no offence meant to the jewish people btw)

[Fantt]

Man, Mecharmor, you need to verify who hates the Chinese so much. I've never heard anyone speak that horribly about Chinese people in general.