Question Is "lying" a crime ?

Is "lying" a crime

  • Only perjury (=lying under oath) is a crime

    Votes: 7 25.0%
  • Perjury and lies that cause serious harm or damages are crimes

    Votes: 6 21.4%
  • Any lie that causes harm or damage is a crime

    Votes: 7 25.0%
  • Any lie is a crime, because there is always a potential harm or damage in the future

    Votes: 4 14.3%
  • A lie is never a crime, but sometimes an offence

    Votes: 3 10.7%
  • A lie is never a crime or an offence

    Votes: 1 3.6%

  • Total voters
    28
Elizabeth said:
It isn't so much a question of being worthwhile or not, as without a lie detector or MRI scan

in most cases of lying about matters not connected to larger crime there isn't going to be independent evidence to point one way or the other whether someone was being intentionally deceitful.

So I guess that for important matters it is important to make the other party pledge that they are telling the truth in a "one-to-one oath", and if possible make them write it on paper or by email to have a proof in case of conflict.
If an oath (outside a court) is the condition, would lying count as a crime if the damages are big enough ? The problem is that a written oath resembles too much a contract, and thus falls under the civil law regulation. I think there need to be some law that treats cases where no such oath was written down.
 
The relativity of lying

In life there are objective things and subjective things. One can lie about something objective, like a fact. Anything subjective is a matter of personal perception, and can vary in time. That is why there cannot be actual "lies" about emotions, feelings, perceptions, or personal experiences, except if there go against objective facts.

Here is an illustration. A man tells his wife that he doesn't want to go to the cinema because he is feeling tired. 10 minutes later, he is caught working on his P.C. The wife accuses him of lying about feeling tired. There is no way she will be able to prove that he did not genuinely feel tired when he said it, because fatigue is a temporary feeling. What is more, as tiredness is also a very gradual sensation. It is not black or white. There can be many different levels of tiredness, and also many different sorts. That is why it is a subjective feeling, and one cannot be lying by saying that they are tired, because there is always a possibility of being only moderately tired, or too tired for some determined activity but not others.


Here is another example. A man says he has had 10 girlfriends. When asking the girls in question if he has indeed been their boyfriend, 4 of them say no. Does that mean that the man is lying, or boasting about his experiences ? Not necessarily. The problem with relationships is that they are also very subjective. It is all a matter of definition, and in life, most people live with different definitions for the same words. As lying can only be about facts, definitions cannot be taken into account. Here is why.

For some people, a boyfriend-girlfriend relation starts at kissing, even if it only happens at one party on a single evening. For others, it requires having a committed, exclusive relationship over a minimum period of time (highly variable). Some won't call their dating partner a girl/boyfriend unless they have had sex. Others don't care as long as there are feelings. Some need actual love, or at least infatuation, to call it so. That is why, two people who had sex after a party as a one-night stand might calculate differently the numbers of romantic relationships they have had. Some will count it, others won't. It is all a matter of personal perception, or subjective feelings, and, well, defintion.


Even for supposedly clearer definitions, things are not always simple. Most people think that they can answer unambiguously the question "Are you married ?". But in fact, perceptions and definitions can also mislead us terribly. For some, being married is just a legal matter of having signed a piece of paper or not. For others, marriage can only be accomplished by a priest in front of God, and the administrative paper does not mean anything. Add to this that each country has its own laws regarding marriage, and each religion its own customs and acceptances. That is how too people of different countries and cultures might both claim that they are married, while in the other's eye they are definitely not.

If two homosexuals married on paper in the Netherlands meet a fundamentalist Christian for whom a a religious marriage is a must, and who comes from a US state where homosexual marriage are illegal, it goes without saying that this American person will not recognise the gay couple as being married. That does not mean they are lying, even if their marriage is not recognised either by law or religion in the place where they are. Should they tell the American guy in question that they are not married, they would not be lying to him their status does not match his own definition of marriage. So whatever they say, they are not lying. It just depends whether they take their own definition, or the other person's definition into account in the process of their communication. Some people naturally take the other person's point of view, while others stubbornly refuse to do so.

I hope these few examples demonstates well enough how it is so-to-say impossible to really lie about anything subjective.
 
I think it's important first to asses the context of lying, that makes the difference between crime and perjury. To give you a straight answer, I don't think lying is a crime, sometimes can be used to avoid crimes, ave you thought about that?
 
Maciamo said:
My point is that "lying" always causes at least an emotional damage, to the same extent to "stealing" or "destroying someone's property" causes a material loss/damage. This is ho I feel about it, although it should be graded from "very benign to very harmful". We could say that there is no need to "prosecute" someone when the harm done is negligible or not worth the lawsuit, like in most cases (as for small thefts), but the reason I would like to see "lying" treated as a crime is for serious cases like "Bush lying about the WMD's in Iraq" or any other serious cases in non-public matters.
So if my wife asks me if a new outfit she has purchased and is very happy with looks good and I don't think it does, I should tell her the truth???? :shocked::shocked::shocked:
 
Lying is only a crime is someone is hurt.

Lying for the best interest is a normal human behaviour.
If one allways has to tell the truth, society would be in a constant conflict.

We are all lying when we raise our children.
"If you aren't nice, you won't get presents from Santa!"
 
So if my wife asks me if a new outfit she has purchased and is very happy with looks good and I don't think it does, I should tell her the truth???? :shocked::shocked::shocked:

Yeah, if there is one thing a woman doesn't want to hear, it's the truth. :useless:
 
I think lying is more complicated than being a 1 or 0.

Lies are more like shades of grey the off white ones are useful and help ease social relations, we all use them, but black ones are dangerous and usually lead to trouble.

I think lying is an intrinsic part of human social system. Dishonesty in the Capitalist system is huge problem in. Capatalism is the pursuit of profit over everything else to the point where a rip-off culutre has developed. Big business is not concerned about a fair price or quality products its about squeezing over ehads and charging as much as you can get away with. In truth this is hugely damaging dishonesty.

Sub-prime mortgages were sold to people who clearly couldn't afford them. The people selling them knew they would have sold on the debt before the time bomb went off, this was dishonesty and this :14:quick buck mentality lead to devastation of the hopes of a whole generation.
 
Regarding this topic, I would like to recommend the short essay (26 pages) Lying (only available in e-book) by the great author and neuroscientist Sam Harris.
 
Lying is the basis of our civilisation.
 
I have a real hatred of lying and don't lie to anyone or for anyone, even to the point of it being painful. To the question, would I ever consider lying? Only if it saved a life of someone I would consider worthy to lie for.
 
I would think lying is only a crime in the sphere of justice and things told under oath. I very much dislike lying, and pure honesty is probably one of the most valuable things in the world, not least due to it's scarcity. However, not lying can be just as dangerous as lying, i don't doubt lies have prevented a lot of conflict throughout history, or at least as many as they have started.

Kind Regards,
Sam Jackson
 
If you start to lie all the time, then what is your sense of reality? If you lie, then what you are is a lie. This is why I'm sticking with the truth.
 
If you start to lie all the time, then what is your sense of reality? If you lie, then what you are is a lie. This is why I'm sticking with the truth.

That's really big of you, considering that you posted here my poem "On Dancing and Trancing", that you got from a different forum, without my signature, nor my name, nor a link to the forum you took it from. Of you don't consider plagiarism a lie?

Be so nice to post a link from where you took my poem, and acknowledge my authorship. I wrote it and posted it almost 2 months before you took it, from the forum we both wrote on, from a thread you knew very well, so you have no excuse to post it without my name, or a link from where you took it from.

To everyone else - sorry that I cannot provide the link for the poem in question, because I don't have enough postst here. It is posted on All Empires History Community, subforum "Literary Persuits", thread "My Poems", page #3, name "On dancing and Trancing".
 
Lying is the basis of our civilisation.

Totally agree. Lying is the only possibility for a peaceful coexistence. Without lies it would be impossible to survive as mankind. Even in nature we have examples of it.
 
telling a lie often comes back to cause problems later. As hard as it sometimes can be, telling the truth is better in the long run. The one time I justify telling a lie in my mind, is to protect hurt feeling. When someone asks a question about themselves and I know my honest answer will hurt them, I WILL lie rather than be hurtfully truthful? As grandmother used to say, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all!" If I'm forced to give an answer, it will be a NICE one.

Frank

:blush:

Yes, I quite agree!
 
In nature?? Do animals lie?
Because most, or maybe all, lying is in verbal form it is very hard for animals to lie.

My friends had a big dog. He was punished many times for taking food from countertop. One day he managed to pull and eat box of chocolates out off countertop. When they came home dog was unusually friendly, but in weird way. They had experienced this behaviour before, so it wasn't hard to figure out that the dog did something he shouldn't, and doesn't want to be punished.
I'm pretty sure if this dog could speak, he would be denying through his teeth, just to avoid the wrath of masters.

Other example of animals lying is when possum and some other animals are playing dead to trick enemies. They are lying that they are dead.
 
Because most, or maybe all, lying is in verbal form it is very hard for animals to lie.

My friends had a big dog. He was punished many times for taking food from countertop. One day he managed to pull and eat box of chocolates out off countertop. When they came home dog was unusually friendly, but in weird way. They had experienced this behaviour before, so it wasn't hard to figure out that the dog did something he shouldn't, and doesn't want to be punished.

I would interpret that behaviour more as a feeling of guilt or shame, because the dog knew he was not allowed to take it, and it knew that his masters probably would be angry, so he tried to make them less so by acting extremely friendly. Of course he would then give himself away, which is kind of the opposite of lying. I have experienced the same with cats, by the way.
 
I would interpret that behaviour more as a feeling of guilt or shame.
Aren't these the main reasons behind human lies, plus avoidance of punishment?
 
Aren't these the main reasons behind human lies, plus avoidance of punishment?

In humans, yes, but it also depends on the situation. But I don't think animals are capable of lying per se, in my opinion, just as they are not capable of laughing or crying (with tears - animals can of course experience pain, distress and sorrow like we do).
 

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