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View Poll Results: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was

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  • The ultimate crime against humanity

    12 32.43%
  • A serious war crime because US had other options

    9 24.32%
  • An unethical act of war although US needed to check USSR

    0 0%
  • An inferior choice although US had few other options

    1 2.70%
  • Justified because it saved many US & Japanese lives

    7 18.92%
  • Entirely justified because Japan would not surrender without it

    8 21.62%
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Thread: Dropping the Atomic Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki:

  1. #76
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    I think that the only good thing to come from it is that everyone saw what a horrific weapon the neuclear bomb is, and thus no-one has used one since.
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    The end of World War II wasn't a good thing?

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    I would say that the US atomic bombing of the two cities served two main purposes. 1) a a revenge for what the Japanese did to the Pearl Harbour.
    2) a deterrent to the Soviet Union.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NagoyaIan
    In fact, it did. In Europe, an RAF squadron accidentally droped thier bombs on a civillian city after becoming lost. This led to the Germans bombing civillians in England as retaliation. The fact that many more bombing raids attacked citys rather than military targets actually helped the industrial/millitary infrastructure survive. Without this, Britain would have been defeated.
    You are right insofar as that the distraction of the German bombers helped the British military. But that only proves the point I made: the Luftwaffe was rather successful only as long as they targeted military objects.

    AFAIK, you're wrong about the RAF bombing Berlin accidentally. It was the other way round: the Luftwaffe accidentally bombed the London docks (on Aug. 24,1940), which incensed Churchill so much that he ordered Berlin to be bombed (on Aug. 25). The utter destruction of an arbour in a Berlin suburb in turn incensed Hitler so much that he ordered the bombing of British cities. Which led to the German defeat in the "Battle of Britain."


    Quote Originally Posted by Hanoi
    I would say that the US atomic bombing of the two cities served two main purposes. 1) a a revenge for what the Japanese did to the Pearl Harbour.
    That may have been one of the purposes, but does that justify it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanoi
    I would say that the US atomic bombing of the two cities served two main purposes. 1) a a revenge for what the Japanese did to the Pearl Harbour.
    2) a deterrent to the Soviet Union.

    Wiping out two cities of civilians was revenge for dropping conventional bombs on a military target? How do you work that one out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NagoyaIan
    Wiping out two cities of civilians was revenge for dropping conventional bombs on a military target? How do you work that one out?
    Justification is a difficult word. Killing is wrong, but in a war, people kill each other. How do you justify taking even one life? Any aerial bombing of civillian targets is hard to justify, but the Allies flattened Germany, too. (It was a war they will tell you.)

    Take into context the entire pacific war. Pearl Harbor was not the only target of Japanese bombs. Think of a dozen cities in China, South East Asia, the Phillipines...but revenge is still a poor reason. "They started it." seems rather childish. How about military expediency- kill your people to save our own people? Ending the war and saving lives on both sides?

    The Truman decision: If you had in your power the means to stop the endless slaughter of thousands of soldiers and civillians a day, in a war that you did not start, at the cost of thousands of their civillians, but at the risk of none of yours... some would consider it a crime not to act. Whether for some idea of revenge, or a childish tit for tat, or as a threat to future agressors and a demonstration of strength, or as that deal with the devil to end the war-- whatever justification you choose, it will seem a pale excuse to those who suffered from it, and it would not even weigh on that President's decision to drop the bomb. I'm certain he could make no other decision.

  7. #82
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    I wanted to say that my mind isn't 100% made up on this issue. There is still a lot that I don't know about what actually happened. I understand that the racism element may have been there, but at the same time there weren't many people around the world who were very sympathetic to the Japanese at the time. They commited horrific crimes against the natives of the lands that they were conquering and against POWs. I think that it's understandable that they were viewed as less than human, just from the acts that they had committed. Again, this isn't my personal belief per se, but I can understand it. One thing that I found quite interesting is that there was discussion of eliminating the entire Japanese race, because they were seen as being a threat to the world due to their ultra-nationalism and own racist beliefs.

    Also, I've given it some thought, and I wonder if the Allied forces could have bombed Japanese factories and military locations conventionally to bring the war to a close, thereby not involving civilians (at least not as many as in the case of the atomic bombs) and showing the Japanese that there was no possible way that they could continue to fight. This seems to me to be the best possible scenario. I wonder if the thought occurred to anyone in power.
    Last edited by Glenn; 02-02-05 at 17:37. Reason: redundancy repetition

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    I've merged the two threads into one and tried to prune the resulting thread for continuity. I hope this works out well.

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    Domo Arigato, Glenn
    Good Job.

    I have not changed my opinion, but I am very unhappy with the reasoning behind it. I find myself rooting for those who believe it to be a war crime and hoping they will convince me.

    Sabro

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    Bound by the bomb (Tri City Herald article)

    "Survivors - and historians -also argue the bomb was dropped because the United States wanted to make a show of force to the Soviet Union in the opening round of the Cold War. And they contend the United States did not want to let a $2 billion project go unused.

    Even some Manhattan Project scientists had doubts about dropping the bomb on a city. Some signed a petition requesting a demonstration explosion in water or on an island near Japan to impress the Japanese leaders.

    Glenn Seaborg, one of plutonium's discoverers, signed that petition. "It just seemed like a good possibility that Japan would have surrendered without the loss of lives at Hiroshima and Nagasaki."We may have been wrong. They may not have surrendered," Seaborg said. "It was not a clearcut matter. You could argue the other side." But Seaborg said he would sign the petition again today.

    U.S. leaders feared a demonstration with a still largely experimental bomb could easily fizzle - and not impress anyone."They argued that the sooner we used it on Japan, the sooner we would end the war," Seaborg said.

    Japan appeared determined to continue the war in the summer of 1945.

    Struggles were waged among Japan's top military and civilian leaders on whether to fight or surrender, but the pro-war military factions dominated.

    Despite the internal debate, Japan's leaders publicly presented a united front of defiance to the outside world.

    Because the Allies had broken Japan's codes, the men responsible for making the decision to drop the bomb had some clues about the split among Japan's leaders. But debate continues today on how much the Allies knew.

    On July 26, 1945, Allied leaders issued the Potsdam Declaration, calling for Japan to surrender or face destruction.

    Japanese Premier Kantaro Suzuki described his reaction to the Potsdam Declaration as "to kill it with silence" - the equivalent of saying, "No comment."

    But the Japanese military told newspapers July 28 that Suzuki's reaction was to "treat it with silent contempt." And that was the message received by the Allies.

    Some Nagasaki survivors like Uchida blame the military for continuing the war until the bombs dropped. He said he felt "rage, anger and fierce fury" at Japanese military leaders "for not surrendering when they knew we had lost the war."

    The first atomic bomb fell Aug. 6, 1945, on Hiroshima. Hirohito and the military knew about that city's destruction later that day, but were paralyzed by indecision. Hirohito did not meet with his supreme war council until about 11 a.m. Aug. 9, within minutes of when the second bomb fell on Nagasaki.

    In the first days after the Hiroshima attack, Japan's government tried to keep the awesome destruction a secret from the rest of the nation. "The Japanese military did not want people to know about the atomic bomb," said Tsuia Etchu, founder of Nagasaki's Atomic Bomb museum. Etchu was an army officer in the city of Fukuoka when the bomb fell.

    Vague newspaper accounts were published Aug. 8, describing a new bomb inflicting "considerable" damage on Hiroshima. Nagasaki Prefecture's governor learned about the true extent of Hiroshima's devastation Aug. 8 from an eyewitness.

    Uchida criticizes the speed of the second bombing. "Three days was not enough time to make the decision to surrender."

    But after Hiroshima, the United States wanted to hit Japan with a second bomb quickly to create the illusion it had many atomic bombs ready, instead of just two.

    On the afternoon of Aug. 9, after learning of Nagasaki's destruction, Japan's supreme war council remained split 3-3 on surrendering.That evening, Hirohito persuaded the die-hards on the council to accept surrender. "If the bomb was not dropped on Nagasaki, the military would have continued the war," Etchu said. "I think dropping the atomic bomb shortened the war.""

    I found this article on the web. (http://archive.tri-cityherald.com/BOMB/bomb15.html) It brings up every point we've discussed here.

    I still have not found any evidence of a Japanese desire to surrender before the bombs were dropped.
    Last edited by No-name; 07-02-05 at 22:24. Reason: add title and link.

  11. #86
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    I for one am glad that the bombs ended the war, because my father was training for Operation Olympic, which would have been the invasion of Kyushu.
    Before the dropping of the bombs the estimates of casualties that would be suffered by the US invasion forces to conquer Japan ran from 1.7 million to 4 million, with 400,000 to 800,000 deaths. The estimate for Japanese civilians and military was from 5 to 10 million people.
    In preparation for the invasion the US manufactured 500,000 Purple Heart Medals (given for combat wounds or in case of death in combat.) There are still over 100,000 in stock, even with all the combat casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    I believe that President Truman looked at these estimated casualties and did not think he had choice. If he had not authorized the use and the US would have suffered half of that number of casualties he would probably been tried as a war criminal by the American people.

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    I agree with last two recent posts (didn't have time to read all). As terrible as this might sound, Japanese should be glad for atom bombs. War ended much faster with fewer casualties on both sides, especially on Japanese side. Fire bombing of Tokyo did more carnage than both atom bombs, and no one protesting it much.
    Japan, being an aggressor, plus committing countless crimes again humanity all over Asia, shouldn't play the victim and blame "all bad" USA for dropping a bomb or two.
    Other than that I like Japanese, they are a great addition to variety of human kind.

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    The ultimate crime against humanity. Those responsible for it should have been tried after the victory was achieved.

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    If you spent more time reading and thinking, instead of mindlessly posting today, you might resemble more of a human being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    If you spent more time reading and thinking, instead of mindlessly posting today, you might resemble more of a human being.
    Curtis LeMay - for war crimes and crimes against humanity which constitute the crime of genocide against the Japanese people in the bombings which destroyed fifty to ninety percent of all cities in Japan. The total number of victims will never be known, but millions are in question. That same LeMay was employed by further administrations and in 1961 was the vocal advocate and proponent of the use of nuclear weapons in the Bay of Pigs in Cuba. Without doubt the worst war criminal on the Allied side of the World War II. What is Dresden compared to what Allies did to Japan?

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    What would be your choice?
    1. Sacrifice 2 millions of your citizens/soldiers conquering one Japanese island after another, Okinawa times a 100. Plus millions of Japanese would be killed in this process too.

    2. Drop a powerful bomb, kill hundreds of thousand of enemy (ones that started the war), without loosing lives of your citizens, scare hell out of Japanese and finish the war in weeks.

    What is your choice Rastko if you were a president of USA?
    Would you become a war criminal to save millions of lives on both sides??? Or maybe a hero? Can you be both?

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    Rastko:

    Have you actually read the History of Japan during 1937 and 1945 (WW2)?


    The Japanese killed over 30 million Filipinos, Malays, etc, and over 23 million Chinese, and this is just a "small sample" of what the Japanese did and would have continued doing if they had not been stopped by the bombs.

    Source Wikipedia Google How many chinese did japan kill by country in WW2

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

    And while your at it look up the rest of the Google search references.

    Makira

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    Rastko:

    Have you actually read the History of Japan during 1937 and 1945 (WW2)?


    The Japanese killed over 30 million Filipinos, Malays, etc, and over 23 million Chinese, and this is just a "small sample" of what the Japanese did and would have continued doing if they had not been stopped by the bombs.

    Source Wikipedia Google How many chinese did japan kill by country in WW2

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

    And while your at it look up the rest of the Google search references.

    Makira
    And the imperialist actions of Japanese Empire justify mass murder of innocent civilians? By the way, nuclear bombs had lasting effect on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and generations suffered from it. And generations will suffer.

    It was not Hirohito who suffered, but women, elderly and children.

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    It's easy to be a demagogue from behind a desk filled with idealistic books.
    What would you do in real life if you were president of US?

    1. Sacrifice 2 millions of your citizens/soldiers conquering one Japanese island after another, Okinawa times a 100. Plus millions of Japanese would be killed in this process too.

    2. Drop a powerful bomb, kill hundreds of thousand of enemy (ones that started the war), without loosing lives of your citizens, scare hell out of Japanese and finish the war in weeks. You can save trillions of dollars of your peoples money shortening the war and millions Japanese lives too.

    Are you still thinking?
    Real life dilemma dude, make your hands dirty, spill blood, save your people, be a man Mr Booksaint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It's easy to be a demagogue from behind a desk filled with idealistic books.
    What would you do in real life if you were president of US?

    1. Sacrifice 2 millions of your citizens/soldiers conquering one Japanese island after another, Okinawa times a 100. Plus millions of Japanese would be killed in this process too.

    2. Drop a powerful bomb, kill hundreds of thousand of enemy (ones that started the war), without loosing lives of your citizens, scare hell out of Japanese and finish the war in weeks. You can save trillions of dollars of your peoples money shortening the war and millions Japanese lives too.

    Are you still thinking?
    Real life dilemma dude, make your hands dirty, spill blood, save your people, be a man Mr Booksaint.
    Enemy soldiers?! Children are enemy soldiers?! Generations suffered and suffer and will suffer from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan would most likely surrender soon after the invasion began, so talking about 2 million dead soldiers is silly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It's easy to be a demagogue from behind a desk filled with idealistic books.
    What would you do in real life if you were president of US?

    1. Sacrifice 2 millions of your citizens/soldiers conquering one Japanese island after another, Okinawa times a 100. Plus millions of Japanese would be killed in this process too.
    why on earth do you need to conquer Japanese islands?
    if they lost the war, that does not mean USA had right to occupy their land...
    and especially the right to test new horrifying weapon on civilians

    2. Drop a powerful bomb, kill hundreds of thousand of enemy (ones that started the war), without loosing lives of your citizens, scare hell out of Japanese and finish the war in weeks. You can save trillions of dollars of your peoples money shortening the war and millions Japanese lives too.
    how is civil population of two big towns an enemy?
    in what way is such an attack different from 11/09 attempt of some Arab fanatics to scare hell out of Americans and finish decades of USA messing in their matters?

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    Ok ostriches, pull up your heads off a sand and make a choice, the real life choice.
    Your noble and idealistic blah, blah, blah doesn't run countries or win wars!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastko Pocesta View Post
    Enemy soldiers?! Children are enemy soldiers?!
    Why do you value life of women and children more than men/soldiers?
    Besides, most soldiers were not volunteers. You forgot to tell Americans not to kill Japanese soldiers, because they were forced to fight by their government.

    Generations suffered and suffer and will suffer from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan would most likely surrender soon after the invasion began, so talking about 2 million dead soldiers is silly...
    What?! 2 million dead men is silly, especially if they are your countrymen?! Wouldn't you bomb 100 000 Croats or Bosniaks and make many suffer to save 2 million Serbian men, and finish a war in one week? Save your father, brother, and your friends that can die in a war too. Keep in mind that you are a president and lives of all your countrymen is in your hands. You can save them or send them to slaughter.
    Instead you're playing humanitarian card of saving enemies women and children, because you don't like the atom bomb. Dude, how many women and children would die if fighting starts on streets of Tokyo?! Oh, but that's ok because they would die from normal bombs and bullets.
    You are even not considering the fact that japan would be all in ruins with millions more killed. But that's ok, it would be from normal bullets and to rebuild it it's about dirty money, no biggy. Oh, and maybe it won't be that bad because maybe they will surrender sooner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    why on earth do you need to conquer Japanese islands?
    if they lost the war, that does not mean USA had right to occupy their land...
    and especially the right to test new horrifying weapon on civilians
    First of all you need to tell Japanese that their god/emperor lost the war, and they would never believe you. The Japanese government would proclaim victory regardless.
    Secondly, you would leave all their occupied nations in Asia to Japan. But who cares, they are just Asians, and we know how well Japan was treating them.
    Thirdly, not finishing Japan would leave a possibility of recovery and new Japan/US war.
    On top of it if you treated Japan this way, why wouldn't we leave Germany with Hitler in power in pre war borders???!!! All peachy, all fixed, let's go home.


    how is civil population of two big towns an enemy?
    in what way is such an attack different from 11/09 attempt of some Arab fanatics to scare hell out of Americans and finish decades of USA messing in their matters?
    Who told you there is a difference???

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    The Americans lied all the way through history.

    The American Navy had a good weapon that was kept secret. Their submarines were able to destroy the Japanese shipping during the last year of the war. Before that time, the torpedo weapons had a lot of flaws.
    And they developed a good aiming system.
    So... Supply ships were sunk.
    Many Japanese soldiers were simply stuck on islands. Somewhere in the ocean. No supplies, no food.

    Another thing is, the USSR kept a very large Japanese army at bay in North East Asia.
    Americans never even mentioned that.

    Dropping the bombs was a war crime. Period.
    And not necessary. The Japanese were giving in already.
    Don't forget the hoax of Pearl Harbor was created in the first place to beat the hell out the Japanese.
    The USA simply wanted to use the weapons that had cost them such a large amount of investments!
    There must have been a lot of panic, because the war was nearly over!

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