Al-Qaeda, a politically-driven fantasy?

[Shooter452]

Target of Opportunity

I think that that the reasons for squashing Saddam's regiem were not quite so obvious.

Rightly or wrongly, we entered into this "war on terrorism" by seeking Osama bin Laden in order to punish him for the WTC disaster, invading Afghanistan to get the job done. That was our stated objective, but he proved to be a much more elusive target than we expected.

The present administration had lots of reasons of their own to rack back the Ba'athist Party government in Iraq along with their most visible member. None of them, however, could really justify open warfare and naked aggression (come on, gang, that is exactly what it was).

On the other hand, the fact that they couldn't bag bin Laden was an big embarassment. I think that since they couldn't get the Muslim radical leader that they wanted, they decided to settle for the secular Muslim leader they could reach, who was vulnerable and staked-out just waiting to get pinched. "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."

So, like Br'er Rabbit and the Tar Baby, we're stuck fast with no way to disengage...at least that is the way that it seems to me. And Osama bin Laden is still at large, in case anyone forgot about him.

Now, about the WMD's.

Whether or not Saddam had long-ranged ballistic missiles (he almost certainly did at one time), chemical and bio-tech weapons (also likely at one time or another), or a nuclear weapons R&D program (also likely, but quite some time ago, IIRC) was unimportant to US security. None--repeat, NONE--of the weapons he had could have possibly reached CONUS, so even if he had them all, they were of no threat to us. These weapons surely would have been a threat to Israel, and that was the reason that the US went to war over WMD's real or imagined. To make the that part of the world safer for Israel.

No one is willing to talk about that for fear of being labled an anti-Semite by the ADL, but that is the word around the water cooler up at the Puzzle Palace on the Potomac.

I am not against helping out the Israelis (to hear the MOSSAD talk, they don't need our help, only our money and lots of it), but if we are going to be an arm of the Knesset's foreign policy, I would prefer that we were honest about it.

I don't like our involvement in Iraq any more than any of you do, but my reasons are different. Those are my kids over there with 1st Marine Division playing policeman. And they are my kids from the 2d Marine Division who are on their way over to Iraq to relieve them. Everytime one of them is maimed or killed, I am losing friends and comrades. They are not just names in the paper or on a DoD/NavMC casualty list. And I have seen this kind of feces before. It was in another part of Asia, and happened in 1961 thru 1975.

No one knew who we were or really cared about us then. No one knows who we are or really cares about us now. But that's my kids who are just as dead and just as injured when it is all said and done.

I do not mind that they are being killed or wounded so much as I mind this happening for no reason. And I think that when all is said and done, it will have been for no reason

 

[Lina Inverse]

Well, it should be crystal clear to anyone by now that the reasons for the Iraq war were all just a fantasy born in the sick brain of the Bush-man kashii:
WMD: The only WMD you'll find in Iraq are the bombs 'n' stuff thrown by the US.
Husseins: The Husseins were for a long time close friends to the Bushs, often getting a lot of help (also financially) in the past. However, apperently they outlived their usefulness in they eyes of the Bushs, so they want to dispose of them now at this occassion - swat two flies with one swatter.

 

[Shooter452]

Maybe, but...

Well, it should be crystal clear to anyone by now that the reasons for the Iraq war were all just a fantasy born in the sick brain of the Bush-man kashii:
WMD: The only WMD you'll find in Iraq are the bombs 'n' stuff thrown by the US.
Husseins: The Husseins were for a long time close friends to the Bushs, often getting a lot of help (also financially) in the past. However, apperently they outlived their usefulness in they eyes of the Bushs, so they want to dispose of them now at this occassion - swat two flies with one swatter.

You may be correct, Lina. But like all simplistic answers, it just a bit too simplistic for my tastes.

That Saddam had weapons of mass destruction is beyond question. "Silly rabbit, Tricks are for kids!" *rolls eyes* Were you alive when he used them on the Kurds, when he had his fast-breeder nuclear reactor destroyed by the Israelis before it could turn out plutonium in mass quantities (a reactor sold to him by the *drum roll* West Germans!)? Perhaps he did not have them two years ago, that I grant you, but it is beyond rational opinion whether he had them ever, at all.

In the world of global power-politics, no nation has friends (to paraphrase Charles de Gaulle) it has interests. Few if any of the US interests are wrapped up in Jordan or the Hussein family, and if the Iraq war has proven anything it is that the US is not slave to the interest and opinions of their "friends" (such as Germany, France, etc.). But in oil, aha, there is an interest we can all agree upon.

When you dispose of your presupposed bias and assumptions, you find out that the Bush Administration is not as nefarious as you want to believe. But that does not make them correct, moral, or even politically sound. The things that they do are stupid. That is far worse than being evil. For it is possible to do stupid, incredibly harmful things while still doing them with the best of intent. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

However, for all of your righteous indignation, perhaps it would be useful to remember that it is the people of the USA and the UK who are paying the butcher's bill for all of this. It is not the Bundesrepublik Deutschland who is sending their sons and daughters to die and be maimed. Take the advice of Jackson Browne and Glen Fry: "...lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand, and take it eeeeaaaassyyyy!"

You are of course free to express any opinion that you want (however wise or foolish). That is what a Forum is all about. But in my humble opinion, this ain't the place.

 

[bossel]

(a reactor sold to him by the *drum roll* West Germans!)

Just a little *drum roll* today, maybe more tomorrow:

Where did you get the information that the West Germans sold the nuclear reactor to Iraq? If I am correctly informed, Iraq at that time had 3 reactors, 2 of those French built & another Russian built test reactor.
Later on, though, there were some German companies & individuals selling some stuff to Iraq that could be used in nuclear plants (for what I know, most of it illegaly). Just like US companies, BTW.

*drum roll* subsiding...

 

[Shooter452]

Just a little *drum roll* today, maybe more tomorrow:

Where did you get the information that the West Germans sold the nuclear reactor to Iraq? If I am correctly informed, Iraq at that time had 3 reactors, 2 of those French built & another Russian built test reactor.
Later on, though, there were some German companies & individuals selling some stuff to Iraq that could be used in nuclear plants (for what I know, most of it illegaly). Just like US companies, BTW.

*drum roll* subsiding...

*GRIN*

Well, maybe I was misinformed, but I will await your evidence.

*knowing wink*

And everyone made a buck from Saddam, that is true, but sometimes the "my feces don't stink" attitude from that side of the Big Pond gives me a case of chapped posterior, if ya know what I mean.

I am sure that the reverse is also true on your part.

Like I said before, some things you know more than do I....etc.

 

[bossel]

Well, maybe I was misinformed, but I will await your evidence.

Just one source for now (again no time):
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Iraq/IraqAtoZ.html

Quote:
"Hamza travelled to France to open negotiations on an agreement for the MTR in June 1974. This reactor was a derivative of the French Osiris reactor which was a pool-type reactor fueled by 93% enriched - that is, weapon grade - uranium. Since the French were selling the reactor to Iraq, they dubbed this export model the "Osirak" reactor (in French orthography, Os + Irak, sometimes given as "Osiraq" using English spelling), the name under which it is commonly known. The Iraqis didn't call the reactor "Osirak" however, the proper name for it was "Tammuz-1", named after the month of the Islamic calendar when the Baath came to power in 1968. Along with Tammuz-1 Iraq also contracted for a second lower power reactor called Tammuz-2 (or Isis to the French).
[...]
The agreement for the reactors was finally concluded in 1976. France began to have second thoughts about the wisdom of putting this much HEU in Iraqi hands, or in providing such an efficient irradiation facility. France tried to amend the contract and provide a model using a lower enrichment fuel, called "caramel" fuel with an 8% enrichment. Iraq insisted on the HEU fueled version [Evron 1994; pg. 26]."

I am sure that the reverse is also true on your part.

Yeah, I always find it a bit strange that many US Americans seem to think that the US was always on the right side regarding Iraq.
BTW, in this regard just another link about the reactor bombing:
"But the bombing was widely condemned at the time, even by Israel?fs traditional ally the US, which backed a UN resolution censuring Israel."

 

[Shooter452]

French...sure, the French, and then again, maybe not

I had a talk with a friend over the telephone yesterday after reading your post. We discussed the Osirak "power generation plant" and its origins. My friend works up at Langley, VA and has been there since Reagan was president, so his experiences and opinions are much more varied and eclectic than one would expect.

He says that if you really want to know the "rest of the story" about Osirak, you need to put all of your research skills to work--I told him that yours were formidable, and he said that you would need them. He recommended that you employ the same techniques as do US Attorneys and the FBI when they are working RICO and other OC cases: follow the money.

He told me to tell you that you will need to run down the long list of shell corporations in Belgium and the Netherlands, and through Swiss holding companies, and all the dummy firms through which the geld is funneled. You will need to patiently wade through this network that was designed to obfuscate the naked facts and conceal the trail left by the French to their suppliers, subcontractors, and their consultant firms.

He says that when you get to the part where the paychecks are signed, that all of the wrench-turning technicians, all of the pocket-protected theorists and scientists, all of the salesmen and managers, some/most/all will have German names on them, employed by German companies. And that when these citizens of the Federal Republic of Germany returned back to their homeland, they came back with deep suntans and pockets stuffed with dollars, francs, and Deutschmarks.

He also says, and this is his opinion, since I have not the competance to say, that either your government is the most incompetant this side of the Potomac (I really find that hard to believe), or else this is the worst case of willful blindness in history (I doubt that also, knowing my own government).

Now about the arrogance of Americans...as a foreign traveler, nothing shames me more. But after seeing Paris in the Seventies, and after listening to Germans in this decade, I no longer fear that we are in a class by ourselves.

Do not get me wrong, I do not defend the Bush people. They are my government and it is my people who are living--and dying--with the results of their foolishness. But I think it is the folly of irresponsible juveniles and unthinking dogmatic radicals to base your critisims on crimes and offenses imagined when there is proof abounding on those that we all should know exist.


Quaere verum

 

[bossel]

Hmmph, can't sleep. So just as well, I give a short response here.

You will need to patiently wade through this network that was designed to obfuscate the naked facts and conceal the trail left by the French to their suppliers, subcontractors, and their consultant firms.

The naked fact is that in the 70s the French energy industry was state controlled. There may have been some German suppliers (although not too many, remembering the French pride esp. regarding their nuclear achievements) but no German company or probably even individual had any say whatsoever in selling French reactors to Iraq.

He says that when you get to the part where the paychecks are signed, that all of the wrench-turning technicians, all of the pocket-protected theorists and scientists, all of the salesmen and managers, some/most/all will have German names on them, employed by German companies.

Some, maybe. Most or all, highly improbable.
For what I know there were no German technicians in Osiraq. Perhaps your friend confuses that with Iran, where Germans actually helped to construct a reactor (BTW, destroyed by Iraqi forces, afterwards the German government forbade any further German involvement in Iran).

If there would have been any substantial involvement of German companies in Osiraq we would know. We have some very competent news media here, which would enjoy to jump on this (thinking esp. of Der Spiegel) & I haven't found any reference to German involvement.

either your government is the most incompetant this side of the Potomac (I really find that hard to believe), or else this is the worst case of willful blindness in history (I doubt that also, knowing my own government).

Well, the German customs seemed a bit lax on technology exports, as can be seen by the fact that a whole bunch of companies was able to sell (dual use) stuff to Iraq during the 80s.

But I think it is the folly of irresponsible juveniles and unthinking dogmatic radicals to base your critisims on crimes and offenses imagined when there is proof abounding on those that we all should know exist.

Sorry, what do you mean? Which imagined crimes & offences?

 

[Shooter452]

Hmmph, can't sleep. So just as well, I give a short response here.


The naked fact is that in the 70s the French energy industry was state controlled. There may have been some German suppliers (although not too many, remembering the French pride esp. regarding their nuclear achievements) but no German company or probably even individual had any say whatsoever in selling French reactors to Iraq.


Some, maybe. Most or all, highly improbable.
For what I know there were no German technicians in Osiraq. Perhaps your friend confuses that with Iran, where Germans actually helped to construct a reactor (BTW, destroyed by Iraqi forces, afterwards the German government forbade any further German involvement in Iran).

If there would have been any substantial involvement of German companies in Osiraq we would know. We have some very competent news media here, which would enjoy to jump on this (thinking esp. of Der Spiegel) & I haven't found any reference to German involvement.


Well, the German customs seemed a bit lax on technology exports, as can be seen by the fact that a whole bunch of companies was able to sell (dual use) stuff to Iraq during the 80s.


Sorry, what do you mean? Which imagined crimes & offences?

Your faith in the Fourth Estate exceeds my own. While they are adept and rooting out cases of sloppy corruption in government officials, they do not often unearth the facts in cases involving this level of financial obfuscation. I do not suggest that Der Spiegel or any other German publication has had their integrity compromised, only that such investigative reporting requires much more investigation than most editors are willing to invest with no guarantee of return. They are, after alll, first a business.

No, he is not at all confused. He mentioned Iran as an example publicly known in comparison to this case in Iraq. And he stated that in matters of commerce the French were practical businessmen less than nationalist ideologues. But perhaps you know them better than he does...one must at least allow for the possibility.

If you are convinced that you know all there is about the subject, then I would not presume to insist that you look further. Rest on your convictions and seek no more. I am sure that German industries would never grovel so low merely for the billions of petro-dollars that Saddam dangled before them. I know that the companies in the USA are not above such greed, but things might be different in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

The last comment about "imagined crimes & offences" was not aimed at you, but at those others who insist on conspiracies where none exist. I did not number you amoung them. They are hardly all European since we have thousands of home-growns here. My apologies if you took offense.

 

[bossel]

If you are convinced that you know all there is about the subject, then I would not presume to insist that you look further. Rest on your convictions and seek no more. I am sure that German industries would never grovel so low merely for the billions of petro-dollars that Saddam dangled before them. I know that the companies in the USA are not above such greed, but things might be different in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

I did not say that. If you read my posts again, you will see that I already mentioned that several German companies sold stuff that could be used for nuclear power generation or even to produce weapons-grade plutonium. I wonder how you can get the impression that I'd think German managers are beyond doubt.
Only thing is, they most probably were not directly involved in selling & building Osiraq. Can't see how this leads to the conclusion that no German company was ever involved in any questionable business in Iraq. :clueless:

I can give you a quite complete (?) list of the companies involved in Iraq's nuclear programme, if you want.

 

[Shooter452]

I did not say that. If you read my posts again, you will see that I already mentioned that several German companies sold stuff that could be used for nuclear power generation or even to produce weapons-grade plutonium. I wonder how you can get the impression that I'd think German managers are beyond doubt.
Only thing is, they most probably were not directly involved in selling & building Osiraq. Can't see how this leads to the conclusion that no German company was ever involved in any questionable business in Iraq. :clueless:

I can give you a quite complete (?) list of the companies involved in Iraq's nuclear programme, if you want.

My apologies, again. Perhaps I misread your response. And I was only interested in the Osirak reactor, not with other questionable activities of German companies. I know for a fact that US companies sold materials that were used in much of the construction binge in which Saddam indulged. I assume that some dealt directly with the Osirak project. I know that Osirak was primarily--in Saddam's mind--a source of weapon's grade plutonium. I assume that US companies knew more than they admitted as to its construction and its purpose.

I just did not think that your suspicions ran in the same direction. I am willing to believe that they do, if you say so. I am not trying to engage in a pissing contest over this, but I thought we had primary disagreement as to the involvement of German companies--if only as subs and consultants. If we do not, we do not.

I do have great respect for your abilities to do the research and I believe that if evidence there is, you might want to find it. If it can be found in the public domain, I think you've got a shot. Like I said, my friend suggested that you follow the money. You may run up a lot of blind alleys, but persistance is omnipotent and I would think that it is a primary tool in your box.


Omnium rerum principia parva sunt