Debate How big do you think is the Universe?

How big is the Universe in Volume times Mass ?

  • Total voters
    58
No, it's not like peanut butter or vegemite that you spread across the multiverse, but a single non-infinite den4 that gets punched through multiple universes everytime a particular Tsuyoiko gets tired of explaining things to the den4 at that particular time and kicks the den4 out of that universe into the next...kind of like you probably presently are feeling right now....
 
Wow, I feel I must apologise for all my alternate selves. :sorry: We have treated you very badly. You must be feeling very dizzy, no wonder you are always confused. :mad: Please accept our humblest apologies. :gomen: You deserve our utmost respect for your ability to traverse all those infinities in your singular self - even if we did push you. :sorry:
 
yes, being a singularity does have its problems..... :D
 
Tsuyoiko said:
I don't believe that evolution is necessarily progressive.
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I have read that the less advanced (either extinct, marginalised, or fully integrated into modern humanity) Neaderthals had bigger brains than us. Perhaps their brains were oversized for their current needs, and hence became burdensome ? They had burial rites, and gave flowers and red pigment for the dead, so perhaps they were overly soft and emotional to be fit for survival in a competitive world with the more fierce, less emotional, and methodically murderous Cromagnon's ? In that sense bigger is not necessarily better; environment will decide what is better, and sometimes smaller can be an advantage. Of course what you mean by progress can also be relative.
 
Tsuyoiko said:
In set theory you can have different degrees of infinity. For example, there is an infinite number of prime numbers, but they are only a subset of the infinite set of integers, which itself is a subset of the real numbers. So sometimes there is an infinite number that's 'smaller' than some other infinite number (sort of). :souka:
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Whatever group of numbers that can set to correspond 1-to-1 with natural numbers are all considered infinite to the 0-th degree, namely aleph-0. There's supposed to be infities of higher orders; alep-1, alep-2, ..., aleph-infinity (?).
hakui said:
Infinite is an interesting concept. Is there anyone who can understand it ?
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Going back to Hakui's question. If infinity is defined by natural numbers as an ordinal number group, a measure of the universe as infinite would be of a higher ordered-infinity by having irrational numbers (aleph-1 ?).

What is really interesting and paradoxical about infinity as a measure would be that an infite number of dots can be confined into a finite region of space. A medieval zen-type riddle went, "How many angels can stand on the point of a needle ?" We could say, if one angel could be shrunk into a dot, an infinite number of angels can stand on the pin point. These two infities must be differentiated. Hence Zeno's paradox becomes a play of words that share the same spelling. A finite space can have infinite points within-- going in circles forever cannot be evidence of an infinite universe.
 
den4 said:
yes, being a singularity does have its problems..... :D
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and how will you deal with this one:

being pushed from one Tsuyoiko to another and absorbing all their explanations you`ll gain the enormous weight of information, but being a singular and limited in size beinfg (sorry for such tautology) means that to keep all this information you`ll have to increase your own density...
remember what happend to that singularity which supposed to be the cause of us all?
:D :D
 
being pushed from one Tsuyoiko to another does not necessarily mean a den4 absorbs all their explanation...like some people shed their manners when they enter or leave a doorway to the house, a den4 has been known to lose all knowledge gained from one universe to another...and thus the problems of not knowing anything remains...or is it not remembering anything...the end result is the same, however...so that is a possible answer, void-san....but not necessarily the only or correct one... :D
 
I wish all we Tsuyoikos could feel bad about what we have done to you Den4, but as there are an infinite number of us we are bound to feel an infinity of emotions. So some of us enjoy pushing you around. Not me. The Tsuyoiko in this universe is infinitely sorry. :sorry:
 
den4 said:
being pushed from one Tsuyoiko to another does not necessarily mean a den4 absorbs all their explanation...[...] den4 has been known to lose all knowledge gained from one universe to another...and thus the problems of not knowing anything remains...or is it not remembering anything...
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well, den4-sama, who says that you gain knowledge - you gain information
:evil:
in case of not remembering anything
1) if you forget everything do you still exist?
2) what if you forget that you know nothing...does it mean then that your sig isn`t true anymore :?
 
I have thought about this question many times and I still have no answer. If I really take the time to think about it I usally get a headache. :giggle:
 
Void said:
well, den4-sama, who says that you gain knowledge - you gain information
:evil:
in case of not remembering anything
1) if you forget everything do you still exist?
2) what if you forget that you know nothing...does it mean then that your sig isn`t true anymore :?
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who, indeed, does say that den4 gains knowledge, or information :?
not I.
1) existence and forgetting everything seems to be mutually exclusive, but since each universe is and can be different or the same or the inverse of the current one and vice versa, that statement can also be false, although nothing has been proven. Therefore it shall remain a theory, especially for the Kansas school board as they figure out what to do with the Flying Spag Monster (FSM).

2) if forgetting about knowing nothing leads to knowing something, then it is possible the sig is no longer true. if forgetting knowing nothing leads to still knowing nothing, then the sig can still be true. if the if statement is filled with nonsense or somesense or moresense or the like, then what comes out can be more of the same.

these matters are probably best left to the brain mush eating sea squirts of the universe....

but in the void, perhaps they make better sense... :?

i don't know the answer, however... :D
 
i don't know the answer, however...
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well, who does?.. but we can speculate :D

den4-sama indeed gains some information - Tsuyoiko`s pushes (gomen-gomen, Tsuyoiko-san, no offence) give him some acceleration and make him move at certain direction. So, the particular state of den4-sama changes, but he might not be unaware of all the processes within himself.

another set of questions:
1) does deh4-sama distinguish different Tsuyoikos and different universes?
2) does den4-some know what singularity is?
3) if #2 is "no", then why does den4-sama say "yes, being a singularity
does have its problems..... "?
4) how can void can make any sense?
5) how can void have any sense?
:D
 
1. deh4 must be a corrupted carbon copy of den4, so it may not distinguish the differences in the different universes...you'll have to ask deh4, since I do not know this entity.
2. came across this definition for singularity:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...n-US:official&oi=defmore&q=define:singularity
where in the top link:
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=singularity
we get:
Noun

* S: (n) singularity, uniqueness (the quality of being one of a kind) "that singularity distinguished him from all his companions"
* S: (n) singularity (strangeness by virtue of being remarkable or unusual)

seems like both sort of fit..so, yes...den4 does understand what singularity is. Knowing is another matter, however....
4. void needs to decide for voidself what makes or does not make sense for void.
5. void is using void as a name so void must have some sense to decide that name, so there is some sense, but what those senses are I do not know...
:?
 
Here are two more definitions of 'singularity':
1. A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.
2. A point at which the derivative does not exist for a given function but every neighborhood of which contains points for which the derivative exists.

No wonder you're confused :mad:

As for Void - well she's just the stuff that fills in the gaps :D
 
And what if the universe was finite? I mean, couldn't we imagine that what we call "universe" (all existing mass and energy) has limits? Not physical limits (something we could touch), but some kind of limit behind which there is no existence (I haven't said there is nothing, or emptiness. Just that speaking of something behind that limit would have no sense). What if, when the Big Bang happened from the original singularity, it created "its" own space and time? By essence, "behind it" would have no meaning, as it would be everything, without exception. In that condition, even the "where the Big Bang took place?" would have no meaning.

I personally don't believe of any supra-being or so-hidden God somewhere, but what I am deeply sure is that there is some part of the Reality that we cannot reach (or even think about), because we belong to this universe. If I may compare, I would say that we are like a baby in the center in a huge room, surrounded by a unique wall without windows or doors. Steps by steps, eventually we will arrive at a point where we'll understand the presence of the wall (perhaps even see it?), but we have nothing (and, as I believe, will never have) to cross or see through that wall.

So in short, I believe that the universe is finite, but not "in" something bigger. And don't ask, I am absolutely unable to prove anything in what I said. To tell the truth, I'm not even sure to deeply understand what is the "space" and "time", I mean, in a more global scheme... ;)
 
1. deh4 must be a corrupted carbon copy of den4, so it may not distinguish
the differences in the different universes...you'll have to ask deh4, since I do not know this entity.
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carbone? :? he claimed to be binary code... i was cheated? can i readress
it to non-copy and, maybe, non-carbon den4-sama? :D

well, still #3 is left unanswered, how den4-sama can say (type)
"yes, being a singularity does have its problems..... "?

and taking into account Tsuyoiko`s definitions return to #2 rewording it

does den4-sama understand what singularity is?

As for Void - well she's just the stuff that fills in the gaps
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great! ;o)
Can the senses make any sense? even in the gaps?
aha, and one more - what is sense? :evil:
 
seems like singularity has many meanings...I chose the one previously mentioned.
so being a singularity, it can have its problems....
GAP is a department store now found in the Marui buildings in some areas...and since what is in the GAP are clothing stuff, that is what fills the gaps...
clothing styles do have a type of sense, known as fashion...without some sense of fashion, clothing would not be sold, so yes, there are senses even in gaps...

this should answer most of void's questions :D
 
GAP - government aircraft plant, grant aid program, guided antitank projectile, gun aiming point :D
how many senses and stuffings it all might have

but, alas, unlike you, den4-sama, i can`t understand. I said it once - only see, feel and act :D
 
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