Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 50

Thread: A pagan nation with pretentious manners

  1. #1
    Tony
    Join Date
    02-05-05
    Location
    Wuhu China
    Age
    52
    Posts
    13


    Ethnic group
    Han nationality
    Country: China



    A pagan nation with pretentious manners

    The Japanese are largely an oriental pagan nation who admire civilised nations and would do their best to imitate them, which is nothing bad in itself.

    In ancient times, the Japanese imitated the Chinese though they now have turned their back on the oriental civilisation. In modern times, the Japanese turned to imitate the west and successfully industrialised their country, which is a good thing in itself.

    But unlike the Americans and the Europeans who developed their humanistic ring in their Christian culture(s), the Japanese as a pagan oriental nation who think of their own past as humble and even shameful, chose to split with its own past and to imitate the westerners. In the meantime, they view other oriental nations and cultures as inferior. That's why the Japanese tend to treat other oriental nations as barbarians in a barbaric manner while in the meanwhile behaving themselves in front of westerners in a humble and elaborated civilised manner.

    Anyhow, the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation. And the Japanese civilisation can be regarded as a civilisation of imitations which is devoid of its humanistic core.

    This core can only be achieved through digestion of what they have imitated, either oriental or western, rather than through mere imitation.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Villain Iron Chef's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-02-03
    Location
    Fukuoka (current), Nagoya, Sapporo
    Posts
    55


    Ethnic group
    Asian-American (half-Vietnamese) born in Saigon but raised in America.
    Country: Japan



    I moved your thread here as it seems a more appropriate place for such discussions. Btw, to quote yourself from another thread you recently started:

    "What some of our Japanese are doing in this forum is more than fanning hostility..."

    Might want to be careful you aren't accused of doing the same...
    FYI: I am out of town and offline for the time being until further notice.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Tim33's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-05
    Location
    Oxford
    Age
    36
    Posts
    29


    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: United Kingdom



    I fail to see how immitation means something bad.

    If something is good then copy yes???

    Some might say the chinese way and other oriental ways of doing things are not so good. your inability to move on and put the past behind you. The rich nations generally are these western cultures so what is wrong with being like them. Japan is a reasonably wealthy country also after doing things more the western way.

    As for splitting with your past its really the only way to move on is it not??

    As for western nations we to have split from our past as you call it. Its Evolution of society.
    Last edited by Tim33; 09-05-05 at 18:09. Reason: Spelling

  4. #4
    Where I'm Supposed to Be kirei_na_me's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-01-03
    Location
    Virginia
    Age
    45
    Posts
    407


    Ethnic group
    caucasian(Swiss/English/Native American)
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Chef
    Btw, to quote yourself from another thread you recently started: "What some of our Japanese are doing in this forum is more than fanning hostility..." Might want to be careful you aren't accused of doing the same...
    Exactly...
    You have bewitched me, body and soul...

  5. #5
    Silent Assassin Doc's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-02-05
    Location
    Living abroad in Las Vegas
    Age
    36
    Posts
    289


    Ethnic group
    Chinese, Columbian, German, and Russian
    Country: United States



    Can't we all just get along? I guess not.

    Doc
    "Suppress all compassion and you bear a weapon far greater than any held in the hand of a normal human being." - The Psychology of the Assassin

  6. #6
    Regular Member Tim33's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-05
    Location
    Oxford
    Age
    36
    Posts
    29


    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Can't we all just get along?
    Agreed. Im sick to death of all this Chinese/Japanese bickering.

    Would be nice to see people just move on.

  7. #7
    __________ budd's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-07-03
    Posts
    9


    Country: United States



    some might say that for the racial situation in this country as well
    look like op just registered to start stuff though
    ttp://www.tcvb.or.jp/

  8. #8
    旅人 RockLee's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-04-04
    Location
    Belgium, Limburg
    Age
    38
    Posts
    355


    Ethnic group
    european
    Country: Belgium



    The Chinese had several Foreign architects come over to build their new infrastructure in Beijing, mainly because they want to get more westernlike...soon there will be the olympics in 2008...And you tell me the Japanese are copycats ??? I think you should reconsider your opinion my friend ! :)
    小豆研ぐか、人取ってくおか、ショキショキ〜♪
    Azuki togu ka, hito totte kuo ka, shoki shoki〜♪

  9. #9
    JSPS Ikyoto's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-04-05
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    18


    Ethnic group
    human
    Country: United States



    Tonysoong - can you show me one period of time in which any nation is perfect? Show me one span of time in which any nation can claim to be without any fault.

    You cannot.

    In your eyes, what should be done to Japan for not being perfect in your eyes? Or for that matter any nation?
    Breathe. Unclench. Think.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-12-04
    Location
    Finland
    Age
    38
    Posts
    87


    Ethnic group
    ^^;
    Country: Finland



    I wrote more on this but my pc crashed and naturally I lost everything, so here's a concised version:

    Imitation is one of the most basic thing in the human nature - we learn things through imitation. I wouldn't say, however,
    that the Japanese only imitate things. They adopt bits and pieces elsewhere just like any other culture. I could give you
    examples of borrowing in the Chinese culture as well but I don't think you're interested in that.

    As for the claim that 'the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation', I think it's not valid. I don't see how others view this but I think one
    of the key features in the Japanese culture is the 'uchi-soto' concept. It might be applied to the
    study of non-japanese cultural adoption as well - on the surface something can seem familiar and like a copy but when you dig deeper it has
    more Japanese traits than similarities to the original model. If you think about politics, LDP and the way it works, for example,
    one could say it's rather different from the American model... As for things such as tea and the tea ceremony, Chanoyu and Chadô as a whole
    both feature distinctively Japanese traits - such as raku ceramics and the ideology for using that particular style.

    As for the etnocentric approach, it could be traced back to the Nation State as well as the traditional ie concept
    in the Japanese family. Similar way of thinking can be seen in the Chinese clan system, so if you're failiar with it,
    I think it should not be difficult to understand why the Japanese work as a whole and not as individuals. I'm not trying
    to say that one fact or another justifies anything, I just want to point out that there's always a cause and an effect
    so nothing ever happens out of the blue and without a reason. As for regarding other Asian nations as inferior, I doubt
    that similar approaches wouldn't ve present elsewhere as well - how do people in general view Africa? How do you view Africa?

    If all imitation is prohibited, we wouldn't have rich culture. There's a difference between imitation and adoption.
    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months

    - Oscar Wilde

  11. #11
    Tony
    Join Date
    02-05-05
    Location
    Wuhu China
    Age
    52
    Posts
    13


    Ethnic group
    Han nationality
    Country: China



    Pity that only my Japanese friend Iron Chef truly understands my post in a very misunderstanging way and that he takes offense. Any way it shows that communication between Chinese and Japanese is easier than that in other contexts. It's nothing strange of course---we are both oriental nations.

    I feel wronged with Iron Chef suspecting me of something that i suspect some other posters of on this forum --- fanning hostility. But no, I am not. Instead, i have always been trying to help mitigate that.

    Can I or you name any nation with no fault? No, definitely no. The Chinese as I know have serious faults. Realising your own fault is the beginning of tolerance and repentance.

    And as for Japanese, copying, as i have said, is good in itself. Copying the west has brought about economic prosperity in the industrial and the post-industrial eras as well as copying classic Chinese culture has contributed much to their iINTERNAL social harmoney.

    But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it. The aftermath is a civilisation devoid of a humanistic core, biased brutality in disguise of humble manners.

    This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance

  12. #12
    Regular Member Tim33's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-05
    Location
    Oxford
    Age
    36
    Posts
    29


    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Tonysoong
    This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance
    Back to the war again is it???

    I thought you were finally moving on to another topic for a change.
    Does everything have to lead back to the Japanese not realising the past.

    As i stated before, immitation is not a bad thing, they are merely trying to improve themselves and move on. True maybe they are doing it a little to fast but that is better then not doing it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miu
    As for regarding other Asian nations as inferior, I doubt
    that similar approaches wouldn't ve present elsewhere as well - how do people in general view Africa? How do you view Africa?
    Now you mention that i think i would consider them as inferior, i know this make me sounds like an *** but i do. Lack of technology, evolved society, education.

    Therefore maybe the statement by Tonysoong about the Japanese seeing the other asian countries as inferior should be altered to include other nations and there views about other cultures?

  13. #13
    Regular Member Void's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-03-05
    Location
    Russian Federation
    Age
    44
    Posts
    229


    Ethnic group
    Russian
    Country: Russian Federation



    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonysoong
    But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it. The aftermath is a civilisation devoid of a humanistic core, biased brutality in disguise of humble manners.

    This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance
    Sorry, but i think your conclusion is wrong. What they didn`t "digest" is their own cultural and historic inheritance (though, digest is not a proper word). In fact, you can`t cut off your past. It`s your culture, your roots, national Self, if you want, it`s the history you must learn from. And when it is deeply suppressed with adopted bits and pieces (even if they benefit the nation), what do you think will happen after while? I think it will come out (or even burst out), and most of the times in an agly form of nationalistic pride (or rather arrogance)

  14. #14
    Chukchi Salmon
    Join Date
    22-12-04
    Location
    Sunny South Korea
    Posts
    624


    Ethnic group
    Paleo-Asian
    Country: South Korea



    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Posted by Tonysoong
    But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it. The aftermath is a civilisation devoid of a humanistic core, biased brutality in disguise of humble manners.

    This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Void
    Sorry, but i think your conclusion is wrong. What they didn`t "digest" is their own cultural and historic inheritance (though, digest is not a proper word). In fact, you can`t cut off your past. It`s your culture, your roots, national Self, if you want, it`s the history you must learn from. And when it is deeply suppressed with adopted bits and pieces (even if they benefit the nation), what do you think will happen after while? I think it will come out (or even burst out), and most of the times in an agly form of nationalistic pride (or rather arrogagance).
    I get the strange feeling that you two are referring to the same phenemenon that nobody truly understands. Japan as any other country is not uniform, as has been pointed out many times, and in this thread, you can also see the Emperor. the press, and the people are all thinking differently. If there was any lack in social progress or awareness as in healthy self-awareness, even the leaders themselves have been swayed by the trends of the times. But as both of you seem to suggest, Not knowing one's past is a great disadvantage. Whatever that may turn out to be. Knowledge is definitely liberating instead of making for more bigotry or arrogance, which only befits an ignorant, savage culture.
    Z: The fish in the water are happy.
    H: How do you know ? You're not fish.
    Z: How do you know I don't ? You're not me.
    H: True I am not you, and I cannot know. Likewise, I know you're not, therefore I know you don't.
    Z: You asked me how I knew implying you knew I knew. In fact I saw some fish, strolling down by the Hao River, all jolly and gay.

    --Zhuangzi

  15. #15
    Villain Iron Chef's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-02-03
    Location
    Fukuoka (current), Nagoya, Sapporo
    Posts
    55


    Ethnic group
    Asian-American (half-Vietnamese) born in Saigon but raised in America.
    Country: Japan



    "Pity that only my Japanese friend Iron Chef truly understands my post in a very misunderstanging way and that he takes offense."

    "I feel wronged with Iron Chef suspecting me of something that i suspect some other posters of on this forum --- fanning hostility."

    "But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying"

    LOL, dude... first of all, all I did was move your thread to the APPROPRIATE forum for discussion. It has not in any way shape or form been altered or edited for content. So what exactly is the problem where you feel the need to make statements like those above? If you feel wronged as a result of me doing my job then that's on you. I suggest you click on the link I have below in my sig re: the forum rules to familiarize yourself with the site a bit more.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Tim33's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-05
    Location
    Oxford
    Age
    36
    Posts
    29


    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: United Kingdom



    Maybe deep down he thought what he doing was wrong and so when you moved it he assumed that was the reason.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Void's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-03-05
    Location
    Russian Federation
    Age
    44
    Posts
    229


    Ethnic group
    Russian
    Country: Russian Federation



    Tim33, why we just don`t let Tonysoong explain for himself what he thought (no matter how deep)

  18. #18
    Tony
    Join Date
    02-05-05
    Location
    Wuhu China
    Age
    52
    Posts
    13


    Ethnic group
    Han nationality
    Country: China



    We are not being reasonable enough not to be so constantly derailed. You see, I posted a thread and a friend moved it, and dozens more friends have read it, but then what do we see happening here?

    I was just intending to share some of my philosophical thinking and i knew there must be people not interested in it just as there are people interested. If you are interested, just follow this thread. If uninterested, move on to other threads or start your own. Ok?

    This is a forum --- for exchange of views and debates --- not for Karade or boxing?

    Thanks

  19. #19
    Silent Assassin Doc's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-02-05
    Location
    Living abroad in Las Vegas
    Age
    36
    Posts
    289


    Ethnic group
    Chinese, Columbian, German, and Russian
    Country: United States



    Look societies and cultures copy off of each other all the time. It's not because they want to forget their past or imitate others, it's because people choose to have a better living when it's made avaiable to them. It's a part of human nature. People copy off each other all the time to make their lives better, that in no way takes away their individuality. They're still unique and individual in their own right still with knowledge of their own past. It's just that they change certain apparences, situations, concepts, etc to make their life better. No matter how much copying a society or culture does from others, they still stay true to their roots (well for the most part they do depending on the individual).

    Doc

  20. #20
    Tony
    Join Date
    02-05-05
    Location
    Wuhu China
    Age
    52
    Posts
    13


    Ethnic group
    Han nationality
    Country: China



    Quote Originally Posted by Tonysoong
    The Japanese are largely an oriental pagan nation who admire civilised nations and would do their best to imitate them, which is nothing bad in itself.

    In ancient times, the Japanese imitated the Chinese though they now have turned their back on the oriental civilisation. In modern times, the Japanese turned to imitate the west and successfully industrialised their country, which is a good thing in itself.

    But unlike the Americans and the Europeans who developed their humanistic ring in their Christian culture(s), the Japanese as a pagan oriental nation who think of their own past as humble and even shameful, chose to split with its own past and to imitate the westerners. In the meantime, they view other oriental nations and cultures as inferior. That's why the Japanese tend to treat other oriental nations as barbarians in a barbaric manner while in the meanwhile behaving themselves in front of westerners in a humble and elaborated civilised manner.

    Anyhow, the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation. And the Japanese civilisation can be regarded as a civilisation of imitations which is devoid of its humanistic core.

    This core can only be achieved through digestion of what they have imitated, either oriental or western, rather than through mere imitation.

    Thanks
    What do you have on ur mind now? My friends?

  21. #21
    Tony
    Join Date
    02-05-05
    Location
    Wuhu China
    Age
    52
    Posts
    13


    Ethnic group
    Han nationality
    Country: China



    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Look societies and cultures copy off of each other all the time. It's not because they want to forget their past or imitate others, it's because people choose to have a better living when it's made avaiable to them. It's a part of human nature. People copy off each other all the time to make their lives better, that in no way takes away their individuality. They're still unique and individual in their own right still with knowledge of their own past. It's just that they change certain apparences, situations, concepts, etc to make their life better. No matter how much copying a society or culture does from others, they still stay true to their roots (well for the most part they do depending on the individual).

    Doc
    The question is "for better or for worse as a whole--- or for better and for worse in different aspects". Right?

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-12-04
    Location
    Finland
    Age
    38
    Posts
    87


    Ethnic group
    ^^;
    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    I get the strange feeling that you two are referring to the same phenemenon that nobody truly understands. Japan as any other country is not uniform, as has been pointed out many times
    Exactly - in Japan, the idea of Japan and its people as an entity did not really exist before the Nation State. Before that the ordinary people had little or no idea who the emperor was. It's true that Japan has many invented traditions, such as the kimono for example, but I suppose you could speculate this has all been brought about along the Nation State. Invented traditions and concepts were introduced in order to unify a very heterogenous people. This still doesn't mean that Japan is completely without any 'serious' tradition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim33
    Therefore maybe the statement by Tonysoong about the Japanese seeing the other asian countries as inferior should be altered to include other nations and there views about other cultures?
    Exactly. I very much doubt that many Americans or Europeans consider Thailand, for example, to have an equal status with their country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonysoong
    But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it.
    You might want to revise what you wrote. I don't think that you can claim that for example the kanji still exist in a mere copied state in the Japanese writing system. Chinese characters work perfectly with Chinese - they work less perfectly with Japanese as it is an agglutinating language. They first tried to make it fit, found out it doesn't work quite right and changed the system to suit Japanese better. It is still quite evident that kanji derives from hanzi but even a Chinese speaker would have to study kanji before being able to use them. This, I think, Would not be the case if the kanji were only a copy of something. A copy means something identical, doesn't it?

    Besides, classical Chinese culture itself has borrowed elements in it. For example in stage arts, the Jin dynasty zaju was brought about by the Jurcen people from Manchuria - they were not Han Chinese. And still, the Jin dynasty was a great era for stage arts in China. As for other examples, I think you would be quite capable of distinguishing Japanese ukiyo-e from Chinese art. As for having similar style, isn't it the same to claim that all impressionists copied one person only because they have a similar style? Why do we distinguish different impressionists from one another if they all 'copy' something? Because they are able to differentiate themselves even while executing a similar style.

  23. #23
    Tony
    Join Date
    02-05-05
    Location
    Wuhu China
    Age
    52
    Posts
    13


    Ethnic group
    Han nationality
    Country: China



    I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

  24. #24
    Where I'm Supposed to Be kirei_na_me's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-01-03
    Location
    Virginia
    Age
    45
    Posts
    407


    Ethnic group
    caucasian(Swiss/English/Native American)
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Tonysoong
    This is a forum --- for exchange of views and debates --- not for Karade or boxing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonysoong
    I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core
    Ok, you make that comment about the forum's purpose being for exchange of views and debates, not for karate and boxing, but then you make some comment like the one in bold italics above?

    Hmmm...

  25. #25
    Silent Assassin Doc's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-02-05
    Location
    Living abroad in Las Vegas
    Age
    36
    Posts
    289


    Ethnic group
    Chinese, Columbian, German, and Russian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Tonysoong
    The question is "for better or for worse as a whole--- or for better and for worse in different aspects". Right?
    For lack of a better term yes. Take a look at Bulgaria for example. Their culture centers around that of their ancestors and western ideas for the past ten years. However, there is a gap in history textbooks spanning almost over fifty years. Do you know why? It's because the society as a whole feels that it's best to forget about the Nazi rule and then Communist rule in their country. Children are all about western ideals and have no knowledge of those years of hell in the past for their parents and grandparents. Yet despite all that they stay true those their knowledge of their ancestors and past culture. It all depends on how societies and cultures see fit on intergrating new ideals western or not.

    Doc

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Cultural table manners
    By MeAndroo in forum Psychology
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 17-05-06, 18:21
  2. What manners do you agree/disagree with ?
    By Maciamo in forum Psychology
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 16-11-05, 20:01
  3. Have good manners dissappered?
    By Mycernius in forum Psychology
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-03-05, 14:56
  4. concrete nation
    By den4 in forum World News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-02-05, 00:28

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •