Politics EU constitution

[bossel]

Thanks for the sources.

It may not be a problem in France, but this is a serious issue in France (with a high €uro ->low exportations, high concurence with China etc...)

Same in Germany, but the Euro goes up & down, just as any other currency (except eg. the Yuan, dictatorships like to have control). At least for Germany, the rise didn't have that much of a bad effect on exports. & since imports got cheaper, an expensive Euro is actually good for me.

since soon enough any EU country will be a part of the NATO, so any initative "uncompatible" with Bush oh excuse me the NATO isn't possible

I think, you misinterpret something there: "it shall respect the obligations of certain Member States"
That does not mean that the joint EU forces would be willing participants in US military campaigns. It means that some member states which see their role in NATO as such, can put (part of) their forces under NATO command if & when they deem it necessary.

As could be seen in the case of Iraq, just because you're a NATO member doesn't mean that you have to follow Bush's orders.

Only the comission can submit laws to the EP, a deputy alone can't...

That's true, could be seen as a major flaw.
But as I understand it, this can be changed at a later point, depending on the laws regarding the procedure.
Anyway, to me that wouldn't be a major obstacle. It's not as if a law would come into force because one MP proposes it. The details of any law are usually negotiated behind the scenes, who then submits it, is of minor consequence (just IMO).

Good night!

 

[Duo]

i dont know if i welcome turkey to the EU yet, if i see what happend a couple of months ago with the woman that were protastating and that the police were really hard to them, i think no, i think turkey still need to change some thing before they can join in... other way i think it is really good that the come , it will unit the west with the m_east more if you ask me

about the constitution, isnt it just way to early to do it? why now? why not in 5 years
first the EURO, which havnt done much good yet, and then the Constitution,,,, how to trust that, when they didnt won our trust with the Euro???

I'm sorry but i'm gonna have to ask you, have you ever been to Turkey before ?

A loft of people that are anti-turkish i think have no idea what this country is about. It has been labeled as this backward muslim country that can like destroy european values and that will invade europe and what not........... and whose people are all dark looking with huge mustaches and women with veils.

Well let me tell you that's totally the wrong picture. Western Turkey, especially, is one of the most "europeanized" parts of the Balkan I seen. The people at first, looks wise, look like your avearage european, and also beahavior wise they are very very similar to the rest of balkan countries, ie GReece, Slovenia, the latter EU members, etccc........

Then as religion is concerned, Turkey has a very very strong secular sentiment, especially in the bureacracy and the army. I agree that there are some issues, economy a bit for example and the issue of the Kurds and what not, but instead of shunning Turks away, Europe should put its arm around it and favor positive change and improvment, and lastly, we can not leave out a country that has been such an important player in European history and demographic change. In Turkey, especially Instanbul, there has been a gene orgy, south eastern balkanic genes are all over the place there with huge Bosnian and Albanian minorities, and let's not forget GReek; turkey and greece have had a 50% gene transfer with each other through the ages.

 

[alexriversan]

now, i read your post, and had an idea:

same sex couple can buy licence to live together for one year, like dog licence.

including the PURPOSE. means, credit card institute can access the data field "PURPOSE". and, this does not include "grow up children". or, additional camera in the dining room, for safety purpose*. do not know if you would like to have that.

now, experience shows, such relationship often ends after three years.

so, banish the marriage discussion, and introduce a licence. means, people pay for that. not the other way round, gettin tax relief.

wouldn't it occur as a big PITY, to abandon all the smokin/boozin liberty, holland has obtained?

it occured, only 6/7 percent of NL people use to smoke hash, even if allowed. most people stay away from it.

*medicians would argue, to monitor correct nourishing. they can "be" quite cynical.

hope you excuse my disapproval by that contribution.

 

[Mycernius]

I don't think the UK has any problem with Turkey becoming a full member of the EU. Tony Blair is for them, but from what I can gather the French government don't want them to become full members. I cannot see why they can't. everyone one mentions human rights abuses to the Kurds, but the UK has done this and is in the EU, and so have other EU members with their minority groups.

 

[Dutch Baka]

I'm sorry but i'm gonna have to ask you, have you ever been to Turkey before ?

A loft of people that are anti-turkish i think have no idea what this country is about. It has been labeled as this backward muslim country that can like destroy european values and that will invade europe and what not........... and whose people are all dark looking with huge mustaches and women with veils.

Well let me tell you that's totally the wrong picture. Western Turkey, especially, is one of the most "europeanized" parts of the Balkan I seen. The people at first, looks wise, look like your avearage european, and also beahavior wise they are very very similar to the rest of balkan countries, ie GReece, Slovenia, the latter EU members, etccc........

Then as religion is concerned, Turkey has a very very strong secular sentiment, especially in the bureacracy and the army. I agree that there are some issues, economy a bit for example and the issue of the Kurds and what not, but instead of shunning Turks away, Europe should put its arm around it and favor positive change and improvment, and lastly, we can not leave out a country that has been such an important player in European history and demographic change. In Turkey, especially Instanbul, there has been a gene orgy, south eastern balkanic genes are all over the place there with huge Bosnian and Albanian minorities, and let's not forget GReek; turkey and greece have had a 50% gene transfer with each other through the ages.

No i havnt been there, but i have turkisch friends for all my life. I AM NOT ANTI-TURKISCH, if you mean that, just i dont know if turkey is ready for it yes or no. thats it, for the rest i know turkey is a modern country, with such friendly people, and im not afraid they will invate europe at ALL....

so for one more time, i dont look negative to turkey, just i dont think they are ready yet!!!!

 

[Dutch Baka]

now, i read your post, and had an idea:

same sex couple can buy licence to live together for one year, like dog licence.

including the PURPOSE. means, credit card institute can access the data field "PURPOSE". and, this does not include "grow up children". or, additional camera in the dining room, for safety purpose*. do not know if you would like to have that.

now, experience shows, such relationship often ends after three years.

so, banish the marriage discussion, and introduce a licence. means, people pay for that. not the other way round, gettin tax relief.

wouldn't it occur as a big PITY, to abandon all the smokin/boozin liberty, holland has obtained?

it occured, only 6/7 percent of NL people use to smoke hash, even if allowed. most people stay away from it.

*medicians would argue, to monitor correct nourishing. they can "be" quite cynical.

hope you excuse my disapproval by that contribution.

is this about the EU, or about the gay marriage?????

 

[Lacan]

:romance: :cracker: :confetti: :hum: :beer: :gulp: NO wins in France with 55% and 70% of participation

 

[Dutch Baka]

YES, that makes me happy without France its non good for the constitution i think, so now it will be almost sure netherlands will say no too....

and i made my decision to, i will say NO.

because many things we already have, and dont need, and i think it is to early for this...

let us first go up with economic and win the trust from the goverments again!!!

thanks all of you people, to help me making this decision!!

 

[Lacan]

I hope this will be a new start for another europe, a more democratic one

 

[Duo]

No i havnt been there, but i have turkisch friends for all my life. I AM NOT ANTI-TURKISCH, if you mean that, just i dont know if turkey is ready for it yes or no. thats it, for the rest i know turkey is a modern country, with such friendly people, and im not afraid they will invate europe at ALL....

so for one more time, i dont look negative to turkey, just i dont think they are ready yet!!!!

Well, for that neither is romania or bulgaria but oddly enough they are entering

Lacan I don't understand what you're so happy about, what new democratic Europe ?

Democracy works only efficiently with representative and delegated powers, and countries of europe have to start to delegate powers to the EU system and try to understand that if we are going to have a united europe we need to take bold steps else we are gonna either ruin all the progress till now or progress with small tiny steps and by then europe's power and influnce will be minimal. It really is a race against time I think, but whatever, you think im wrong and i think you're wrong, so I guess we can't change our minds, but I def know that people who are anti EU are wrong, and ppl who dont try to compromise things and let some things slide that they dont like are also wrong. Look at the American state-makin progress, Jefferson agreed to the constitution but also wanted a bill of rights, he didnt sabotage it, but waited 11 or so years until the bill was added, he compromised, i dont think ppl can just say NO like that. Plus in France a big issue of the EU constitution was that people didnt like the gov and voted no and were scared by interan ******* politicians who used this as a means to gain influence and what not to gain further popularity by scaring the people with idiotic things like Turkey will be in etc etc etc. internal politics ruined the real debate.......

 

[Dutch Baka]

Well, for that neither is romania or bulgaria but oddly enough they are entering

Lol we start talking about turkey, not about other country's sorry next time i will think about all the other things more then what we talk about. LOL

what do you think about it DUO, about france said NO, and what does it mean for the consitution now?

 

[Duo]

Lol we start talking about turkey, not about other country's sorry next time i will think about all the other things more then what we talk about. LOL

what do you think about it DUO, about france said NO, and what does it mean for the consitution now?

hey, i just fixed up my post above this one, so for france saying no, well im disapointed cuz france is a key player in the EU, plus i think the real debate there was ruinec by internal politics instead of looking at the real issues. I can understand concerns of nations of givin power to the EU but if we are in this, we really have to make it work, steadily and step by step, but we have to swallow sometimes things that we dont like for the greater good.

I can't hide it that im a very very pro EU person, mainly cuz i've traveled a bit around Eruope. lived here in Belgim for 7 years, have many internationalf friends from Europe and I can really see that Europe shares so much within itself and actually there is no more a pure european nation, and well, i mean through history and genes we really belong. Many people for example, think I'm dutch, they always talk to me in flemish, and in the Netherlands they always assume in dutch as well, and i have like no foreign blood in my family, and my turkish friend looks a bit russian :blush: and my slovene friend looks western as well, so i guess i want to say that we are not as different.

On an integration system, i would have thing sped up, try to have all of europe in by 2010 by agressive programs, especially in transitory countries who are being sabotaged by internal issues and irresponble and selfish politicans who drag things down, such as some balkan countries, including my own. There i would have the EU exert strong strong pressure to have things move and even have EU agencies appeal to the local population to really pressure their leaders.

As far as the constitution i saw it's main outline on a special program the triangular design of it and it seemed fairly good. If there are objections things can be changed, but we cant change something that we say no to. I mean the constitution would have us solidify this union for the better, i think it's important now to create a more cohisivie union, a more efficient one, because we cant have wasted efforts and 100 thousand procedures and rules and what not just so that everyone is pleased....... we need to be efficient yet still considerate of national identity that I think can slowly dissapear if we increase the Euro mentality and atmosphere.

Also many people are displeased with the EUro, but let's not forget that it was also the fall of the dollar that made the EURO stronger and made many european economies go down a bit because Americans, the largest partner in trade prolly of the EU, quit buying some european products because the dollar kept falling against the Euro, and we kept importing more cuz we could buy more for the same amount of Euro.

WE cant have good and happy things all the time, things go up and down, especially the economy, we can't blame the the Euro solely for this. I mean i guess I would to put it this way, think of it this way ? What chance has the the Netherlands or any other EU country to best have their benefits served in the world aren alone against the EU and the emegering giants India, China etc. Now what chance do u have if you are part of the EU? I think for the small coutnries especially the EU is a good thing, because we can have our way and best serve our interestests by being a in a larger and more powerful entity. And even for countries like France, the good times wont last forever, their population power wont stand a chance once india and china begin to emerge.......

Well I hope the other EU countries vote YES, and then france maybe can reconsider under a proper campaign that is about the EU constitution and not about the Gov or internal bickering......

 

[Lacan]

The debate in France was very hot. If you think that french people voted against their government then you're wrong. People in France don't vote that massively to punish a governement, plus a majority of the government sympathizer voted NO too! If you followed the fluctuation of the french opinion, you can see that the French were naturally bending to vote yes, as every single politics figures was saying it was a good treaty.
Then the French people started to read the text, books about the constitution are best sellers here. We all think that it was a good treaty, but there are some major flaws that we don't want to be "engrave in the marble".
You discuss the term of a contract before you subscribe it, not after. We have experienced the "shut up! you said yes!" just too many times...
I am very european, i love europe and I think that a constitution was a good idea but this love is not blinding me, I love europe so I want what is best for her.
And finally this NO is not a no to Europe but a yes to a slightly different Europe, a europe with more social and democratic concerns and not just a free market.

Once again excuse my poor english, me learning the Korean language is not helping right now...

 

[Duo]

No worries, your english is fine.

The free market thing is way blown out of proportion....besides you have to realize that you can't always have it your way, if every country in Europe wouldn't vote yes to any constitution because something that they dont like doesn't fit we will never have a treaty. The way to measure such decisions is to weight benefits vs. negative things, in my view the benefits were larger than the negative aspects.

And now furthermore, what this will cause is heads of the state of europe to go ahead and active certain main provisions of the the constitution at the EU council level, where approval of the population is not needed, sooo, the political elite of europe is actually gonna have to take things in their own hand because in the netherlands it's not looking good either, let alone the UK.

 

[Maciamo]

I was quite dismayed to see that the French rejected the Constitution. I don't believe in perfection especially when 500 million people from different ages and cultures have to agree with each others about politics, rights and the economy. Therefore I think it was a good Constitution. The who voted 'no' were rather selfish and unrealistic in their hopes. Now France will only lose political weight within the EU and that can only means that decisions will be less favourable that they could have been for the French people in the future.

The BBC says that the French division over the Constitution was not political but a matter of class, with the professionals, businessmen and the middle classes voting 'yes' and the disaffected people at the lower classes supporting the 'no'. I suppose that means that just over half of the French not happy with the current economic situation or are among the 'disaffected'.

 

[ArmandV]

The French always have marched to their own (different) drummer. They proved it once again.

 

[Duo]

clever analysis, thx for the input

 

[Lacan]

The French always have marched to their own (different) drummer. They proved it once again.

We will see soon enough if it is our own lonely way

The way to measure such decisions is to weight benefits vs. negative things, in my view the benefits were larger than the negative aspects

You are right, but there are some principle we just couldn't let go
eg: laicity, directive bolkenstein that the clever president of the European commision Jose Manuel Barroso sait he would force on us with the new vote system and all the points I talked about earlier, I do think we can renegociate this points

The who voted 'no' were rather selfish and unrealistic in their hopes. Now France will only lose political weight within the EU and that can only means that decisions will be less favourable that they could have been for the French people in the future

So the other countries will have more political weight and it will be more democratic
OK maybe our hope are unrealistic but at least we tried, when the Nice treaty was ratified (in Fance!!) by our political leaders we couldn't do anything by cry, this is the first time sinc Maastricht that our opinion are in the balance. Like Liza Di Paolo Sandberg said on BBC NEWS yesterday, the EU need to hear her citizen voices and not be the playground of some elites.
(I love this woman).

The BBC says that the French division over the Constitution was not political but a matter of class, with the professionals, businessmen and the middle classes voting 'yes' and the disaffected people at the lower classes supporting the 'no'. I suppose that means that just over half of the French not happy with the current economic situation or are among the 'disaffected'.

,
middle class represent far more than the half of the french. I don't know if I qualify in the "France d'en bas" (I am a scientist and earn my 3200€ per month) and I don't think this is how the division worked. It was more a matter of "potential victims". Those who think they were in danger or not with this treaty. Some who are fed up with the governement. And some who just didn't understand the treaty ( you can't ratify something you don't anderstand do you) A good margin of professionals and middle class voted no.
I am not in danger with this constitution nor do I care for the government, I think Turkey (and Ukraine) should enter the EU as soon as possible. So I based my vote on the text and only the text.

 

[Mycernius]

I have heard on the news that they reckon if the Dutch vote no it will probably kill this current constitution. Probably won't stop our dear leader Rev.A.Blair from still holding a referendum. It really doesn't take a genius to realise how the vote will go in Britain, we are not the most EU friendly country.

 

[Dutch Baka]

if more then 5 country's vote NO, the constitution will be GONE!!!!
if it is less then 5, there will be some good, boring Conversations!