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View Poll Results: Is race a valid scientific concept.

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  • Yes, mankind can be divided into at least three distinct races.

    35 60.34%
  • No, there is only one race, the human race.

    23 39.66%
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Thread: Is Race a valid scientific category?

  1. #51
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    Nugget, you're partially right. America is the prime spot of races mixing scenario, in effect creating unclear situations in this regard. In 1000 years all the world will be mixed and of one race. Unfortunately till then we have to categorize people in relation to continent of birth which is strongly connected to different evolutionary past. Forget the colour of skin, or skin deep criteria. What if your patient's DNA test came and it showed he/she is 100% African? How would you categorize the person, African? Isn't it the racial classification? And even if you did dislike it strongly, you would be a bad doctor if you didn't apply proper health statistics for Africans. So what is wrong with this if used as classification for benefit of the patient, and not as a tool of social segregation?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Race does exist people try to deny it and say it is just a differnt skin color not true. Our Human family(there may have been other) began in subc shara africa about 200,000-300,00ybp. Over thousends of years differnt families formed. We have diffenrt gentic triats we have differnt features. All humans from what i can see have the same emoitional and mental abilites but we have differnt body builds.

    Click here it explains the human family tree according to DNA

    There are three human races Sub sahren African, Caucasian, and Oceania Mongoloid

    Negroid is not a good name for sub Saharan African because some Oceania Mongoloid also have black skin and nappy hair.

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    Of course there are races. A race, by definition, is a group of people that have had an extended period of inbreeding, with very little outbreeding.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pararousia View Post
    Or maybe 10,000 years ago, Noah and his family continued the human race after a world wide castrotophe. Just as possible as the above. ;oD
    It's also possible that the story of Noah is based on real history, a retelling and re-retelling of stories passed down from the actual days of the mass die-off and bottleneck that has been distorted over time. If grandma kept telling you that she, her husband, Uncle George, and six other families were the only ones to survive the massive die-off that happened in the pop. 5,000 city that she lived in at age 20, maybe you'll remember it enough to tell it to your own descendants. Sooner or later, your great-grandkids decide to make the story more dramatic and re-imagine the city mayor as some sort of divinely gifted character and the City Evacuation Plan as some sort of prophecy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ...
    In Africa, there is no way to confuse a Bantu (Central and South Africa; slightest fairer skin, round face, flat nose) from an Ethiopian (face/skull closer to Caucasoid, smaller nose, squarer face and much darker skin than Bantu).

    I would put the Arabs in a separate division from Caucasoid, Negroid or Mongoloid. Dravidian people (originally from Southern India) are also a separate division. But today's Indians are mainly a mix of Caucasoid Aryans and Dravidians, which explains how two Indians can look completely different (some with skin as fair as a Mediterranean, others as dark as an Ethiopian + different features).

    So is there races or subdivisions within humans ? Yes. Can we scientifically classify them, as we would classify different species of plants and animals (e.g. the hundreds of races of dog or horses) ? Yes. Can we crossbreed them and get new races ? Yes. There is no reason humans should be different from other life beings.
    Good point. I think that racial classification can exist, but that the idea that there are exactly four, and no more, distinctive races is obsolete and/or ideological. IME, Ethiopians have a very European-looking face, probably a result of the fact that Ethiopians, Arabs, Greeks, and Berbers are all descendants of a mixed population of all of their ancient progenitors. West Africans (e.g. Nigerians) are often a similar color to Ethiopians but look much less European. India is also problematic from a "four races" perspective because you end up with people who are not "white" in terms of color but who are ancestrally, culturally, and linguistically linked to European populations.

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    Apparently there is still a real ongoing debate on the issue in question.

    This guy wrote 193 pages challenging the idea that race doesn't exist - John Fuerst, "The Nature of Race: the Genealogy of the Concept and the Biological Construct’s Contemporaneous Utility", 2015.

    PDF (193 pages): http://openpsych.net/OBG/wp-content/...lity-Final.pdf

    Abstract:

    http://openpsych.net/OBG/2015/06/the-nature-of-race/

    Racial constructionists, anti-naturalists, and anti-realists have challenged users of the biological race concept to provide and defend, from the perspective of biology, biological philosophy, and ethics, a biologically informed concept of race. In this paper, an onto-epistemology of biology is developed. What it is, by this, to be "biological real" and "biologically meaningful" and to represent a "biological natural division" is explained. Early 18th century race concepts are discussed in detail and are shown to be both sensible and not greatly dissimilar to modern concepts. A general biological race concept (GBRC) is developed. It is explained what the GBRC does and does not entail and how this concept unifies the plethora of specific ones, past and present. Other race concepts as developed in the philosophical literature are discussed in relation to the GBRC. The sense in which races are both real and natural is explained. Racial essentialism of the relational sort is shown to be coherent. Next, the GBRC is discussed in relation to anthropological discourse. Traditional human racial classifications are defended from common criticisms: historical incoherence, arbitrariness, cluster discordance, etc. Whether or not these traditional human races could qualify as taxa subspecies – or even species – is considered. It is argued that they could qualify as taxa subspecies by liberal readings of conventional standards. Further, it is pointed out that some species concepts potentially allow certain human populations to be designated as species. It is explained why, by conventional population genetic and statistical standards, genetic differences between major human racial groups are at least moderate. Behavioral genetic differences associated with human races are discussed in general and in specific. The matter of race differences in cognitive ability is briefly considered. Finally, the race concept is defended from various criticisms. First, logical and empirical critiques are dissected. These include: biological scientific, sociological, ontological, onto-epistemological, semantic, and teleological arguments. None are found to have any merit. Second, moral-based arguments are investigated in context to a general ethical frame and are counter-critiqued. Racial inequality, racial nepotism, and the “Racial Worldview" are discussed. What is dubbed the Anti-Racial Worldview is rejected on both empirical and moral grounds.

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    And here the opposite view (but there is nothing informative here, I'm very disappointed):

    Michael Yudell et al., "Taking race out of human genetics...", 2016:

    http://www.sun.ac.za/english/faculty...20genetics.pdf

    I guess that whether race exists or not really depends on how one defines the whole concept.

    But we should apply the same standards to humans, as to the rest of the Kingdom Animalia.

    =====================

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    All humans are different, but there are genetical characteristics (e.g. hair/eyes colour, size, facial trait, etc.) that enable us to categorise them into groups. It is not as simple as saying there are 3 main races (Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid). Looking at the people of India, Central Asia and the Middle East, we clearly see that it is more complex. But even within (what's looks like) a clear-cut group, there are many 'subcategories'. For example, among Caucasoids (=Europeans), we can notice very clearly the difference between the North Germanic type (tall, blond, blue eyes, smaller nose, squarer face...) or Celtic type (blue eyes, dark or red hair, rounder face), and Italic type (dark hair and eyes, taller and longer nose, deep features), Hispanic type (less pronounced features than Italic), Greek type (straight nose, sometimes blue eyes), etc.

    Even within one of these groups, we could divide further. E.g. The Frankic Germanic type is not the same as Scandinavian Germanic or Anglo-Saxon Germanic.

    Things get more complicated once we look at mixed race regions, like the South of Germany (Celtic, Germanic and Latin, possibly with a bit of Slavic).

    I this regard I am quite surprised at the ethnic homogenity of North East Asia (China, Korea, Japan). Some Japanese clearly have Ainu features, but otherwise they are almost impossible to tell appart (much more difficult than to tell two Germanic group apart).

    In SE Asia, Indonesian and Malaysian are very easily distinguishable from Thai or Burmese, who are also easily disntinguishable from the Khmer (Cambodians). But there are so many ethnic tribes in Northern Thailand, Laos or Vietnam that it complicated things quite a bit.

    In Africa, there is no way to confuse a Bantu (Central and South Africa; slightest fairer skin, round face, flat nose) from an Ethiopian (face/skull closer to Caucasoid, smaller nose, squarer face and much darker skin than Bantu).

    I would put the Arabs in a separate division from Caucasoid, Negroid or Mongoloid. Dravidian people (originally from Southern India) are also a separate division. But today's Indians are mainly a mix of Caucasoid Aryans and Dravidians, which explains how two Indians can look completely different (some with skin as fair as a Mediterranean, others as dark as an Ethiopian + different features).

    So is there races or subdivisions within humans ? Yes. Can we scientifically classify them, as we would classify different species of plants and animals (e.g. the hundreds of races of dog or horses) ? Yes. Can we crossbreed them and get new races ? Yes. There is no reason humans should be different from other life beings.
    I strongly agree with this post.

  9. #59
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    I can clearly see a difference between different races of people. If somebody said that Africans were discriminated that is why they are behind others today. How do we explain the evolution in European Jews, particularly the Ashkenazim of northern and central Europe. In proportion to their population, Jews have made outsize contributions to Western civilization. A simple metric is that of Nobel prizes: Though Jews constitute only 0.2% of the world’s population, they won 14% of Nobel prizes in the first half of the 20th century, 29% in the second and so far 32% in the present century. There is something here that requires explanation. If Jewish success were purely cultural, such as hectoring mothers or a zeal for education, others should have been able to do as well by copying such cultural practices. It’s therefore reasonable to ask if genetic pressures in Jews’ special history may have enhanced their cognitive skills.
    Just such a pressure is described by two economic historians, Maristella Botticini and Zvi Eckstein, in their book “The Chosen Few.” In 63 or 65 AD, the high priest Joshua ben Gamla decreed that every Jewish father should send his sons to school so that they could read and understand Jewish law. Jews at that time earned their living mostly by farming, as did everyone else, and education was both expensive and of little practical use. Many Jews abandoned Judaism for the new and less rigorous Jewish sect now known as Christianity.It’s reasonable to ask if genetic pressures in Jews’ special history may have enhanced their cognitive skills.
    Botticini and Eckstein say nothing about genetics but evidently, if generation after generation the Jews less able to acquire literacy became Christians, literacy and related abilities would on average be enhanced among those who remained Jews.
    As commerce started to pick up in medieval Europe, Jews as a community turned out to be ideally suited for the role of becoming Europe’s traders and money-lenders. In a world where most people were illiterate, Jews could read contracts, keep accounts, appraise collateral, and do business arithmetic. They formed a natural trading network through their co-religionists in other cities, and they had rabbinical courts to settle disputes. Jews moved into money-lending not because they were forced to do so, as some accounts suggest, but because they chose the profession, Botticini and Eckstein say. It was risky but highly profitable. The more able Jews thrived and, just as in the rest of the pre-19th century world, the richer were able to support more surviving children.
    As Jews adapted to a cognitively demanding niche, their abilities increased to the point that the average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is, at 110 to 115, the highest of any known ethnic group. The population geneticists Henry Harpending and Gregory Cochran have calculated that, assuming a high heritability of intelligence, Ashkenazi IQ could have risen by 15 points in just 500 years. Ashkenazi Jews first appear in Europe around 900 AD, and Jewish cognitive skills may have been increasing well before then.
    The emergence of high cognitive ability among the Ashkenazim, if genetically based, is of interest both in itself and as an instance of natural selection shaping a population within the very recent past.



    桃李滿天下

  10. #60
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    I would say that race definitely exists. I've got Asperger's syndrome, a condition that mainly affects people of northern European heritage. There are many other illnesses or conditions that are race-specific.

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    People are divided in CLASSES not RACES!!

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    The options are too limited. Yes, there is genetic structure and subsets of human populations who are much more related to each other than to others, forming clusters, but there is no way that a good scientific description of this reality can be done with a very simplistic "3 races" model. It's impossible to give a proper, sensible answer when the two options are opposite and equally unrealistic extremes.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ethanscott View Post
    Race does exist, there is no point denying it. The proof being skin colour of people. It is not exactly the best way to classify people though.
    We can see in popular sites or books that physical characteristics between of racial groups are differentiated according to: skin colour, stature, head, face, eye, nose, body shape etc.

    We can see classifications with 3, 5, 7 races etc.

    Nothing problematic but how is it realistic or better scientific?

    American biological anthropologist Livingstone argues that variability between populations which make up the species does not conform to the discrete packages which popular we call races.

    His claim is: "There are no races, there are only clines".

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    In my medical file (for the use of doctors, people who do not have time to waste with the politically correct) there is written "Caucasian". Ditto for forensic anthropologists.

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    There's one race and that's called the human race. Humans can be different and show certain characteristics to specific regions influenced by climate, diet and other natural environmental factors.

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    Fst is useful I believe in determining races, the Sardinian in the first one is terribly wrong though, also Greeks are closer to Italians for example than they are to Iranians, the rest is accurate.





    The largest human races are East Asian, Sub-Saharan African, and Caucasoid because they formed through massive migrations of farmers.

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    I think no

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