Animals Animal Rights

How should we use animals?

  • 1.1 Eating meat is OK

    Votes: 42 85.7%
  • 1.2 Eating meat is wrong

    Votes: 7 14.3%
  • 2.1 Using products from live animals (e.g. dairy) is OK

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • 2.2 Using products from live animals (e.g. dairy) is wrong

    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • 3.1 Testing on animals for medical purposes is OK

    Votes: 33 67.3%
  • 3.2 Testing on animals for medical purposes is wrong

    Votes: 11 22.4%
  • 4.1 Testing on animals for cosmetic purposes is OK

    Votes: 8 16.3%
  • 4.2 Testing on animals for cosmetic purposes is wrong

    Votes: 37 75.5%
  • 5.1 Using animals in circuses is OK

    Votes: 19 38.8%
  • 5.2 Using animals in circuses is wrong

    Votes: 24 49.0%
  • 6.1 Keeping animals in zoos is OK

    Votes: 34 69.4%
  • 6.2 Keeping animals in zoos is wrong

    Votes: 13 26.5%
  • 7.1 Hitting pets is OK

    Votes: 12 24.5%
  • 7.2 Hitting pets is wrong

    Votes: 29 59.2%

  • Total voters
    49
SortOf said:
I liked sea world, you got to see alot of things most zoos dont have.

Yeah, like dolphins who are often taken from the sea after their mothers and many others in their pod have been killed. Why would an aquarium want to spend more time training an adult when it is easier to do so with the young ones? Only thing is, it means ripping them away from their families -- like a brutal kidnapping.

But hey, what`s a little kidnapping and causing stress and having some degree of mortality rate in transportation so long as it makes people laugh, ooh and ahhh at jumps through hoops and swimming pool volleyball, right?

And, if that isn`t enough to make you gush with joy at their imprisonment, they may even be able to click you a Happy Birthday tune.
 
That sounds very sad... but then I remebered that it also happens to humans on regular basis so in comparison to that these kidnapped dolphins are at times treated better than their human counterpart
 
Duo said:
That sounds very sad... but then I remebered that it also happens to humans on regular basis so in comparison to that these kidnapped dolphins are at times treated better than their human counterpart


Yes, it is sad if we can look pass all the goofy antics they are made to do in order to get the audience to laugh and gush at how cute, or how human they are.

I don`t accept the reasoning that the 'crime' of killing one`s parents and kidnapping them is mitigated just because their life from then on in some aspects might have someone fawning over them or lavishing them with treats because they performed a routine they were trained to do. And, just because a human is treated worse in some cases is no reason to accept, blindly ignore, and not speak out against the wrong that is perpetrated on animals.
 
Hi SortOf, I know this is the second time I have used your quote to make my point about aquariums, but it is an interesting topic and not so different from zoos. My remarks are not really directed toward you, but toward this same mentality of enjoyment that many have at seeing creatures in captivity.

SortOf said:
I liked sea world, you got to see alot of things most zoos dont have.

Taking animals out of the ocean and putting them in our man-made worlds makes them vulnerable to disasters that we have no control of. Why should these animals be put at risk for our amusement?

On October 24, last year, Hurricane Wilma pounded Florida, and Miami`s Seaquarium`s 250,000 gallon reef park was devastated, killing more than a thousand fish. Only 2 fish survived.

The only good result from it is the fish were uninsurable and now because of that and light gate sales since 911, the park is now 2 million dollars in the red. Being closed for 16 weeks (because of Wilma`s damage) as they went to the ocean to catch sea life for replenishing the aquarium has really hurt them. They are not willing to buy creatures from dealers that raise them. They prefer to get their specimens on the cheap by going out and plundering the oceans, imprisoning all those who come to their nets.

It will be nice if gate prices go up to cover the losses so that more would decline to visit these vulnerable water prisons.
 
What was I educated about a polar bear in a larger than 'normal' enclosure at a zoo I had visited in the past?

I learned how it behaved in captivity. It performed stereotypical repetitive motions known as Ozoochosis. These animals are often referred to as being zoochotic.

Several years ago the Polar Bear in the Manila Zoo of the philipines became green because of algae growing on its fur. I guess Philipinos learned that polar bears become green sometimes.

The zoos and aquarium parks also teaches us that people think the aligator area is a wishing well and seeing all the pennies in the bottom, I have to wonder if they were wishing for the poor animal to be released into the wild. But maybe not -- for I did see some pennies directly on the back of the animal. I guess those people thought getting a penny on the creature meant more good fortune.

Don`t take my word for it. Look at what an employee of one of these places says about it:

One addition, however, is the placement of signs reading ``Please do not throw objects at these live animals. Coins will injure and poison them.''

This doesn't stop anyone. Every day, people gather around the swamp and toss pennies, nickels and occasionally larger denominations into the water and atop the alligators. If the creatures open their toothy mouths, people will rush to land a coin inside.

``One of the big problems is that nickel and zinc are fairly toxic to the animals,'' Howell says as he sprays hundreds of coins toward the drain. ``If it gets in their mouth, they can die from it.''

He figures it's the ``wishing-well syndrome'' -- people get near a small body of water, and their first instinct is to toss in a coin. That this particular body of water is occupied by monstrous-looking creatures that have changed very little in 80 million years apparently is of little concern.

``I've picked up nails, tacks, condoms, foreign coins of all kinds, wine glasses,'' Howell says, shaking his head. But he doesn't want to say anything negative about the aquarium's paying customers. He knows how his toast is buttered.
See full story HERE.

Yes, indeed. He has a job, earning money -- all comes down to money and exploitation of animals -- why would you want to upset the applecart for an animal`s benefit when you are making a pretty penny off the back of another creature?

Ohhhhh... conservation and education at work for the public. We sure do learn a lot, don`t we?
 
Correction above: The polar bear that turned green was not in a Phillipine zoo. It was in a Singapore zoo.

Knowing that, I am glad to think that Philipinos don`t sometimes think that polar bears are supposed to turn green at times. However, people in Singapore may think so now.

On a bright side, Singaporean zoo officials have learned something from all this: They now know they can reverse such a condition by washing the animal with a bleach solution of hydrogen-peroxide.

Oh yes, the wonderful things we learn and are educated about animals from zoos.

If you want to see the folly of the Singapore zoo experts keeping cold climate animals in a warm environment and the green result, look here: Education in Zoo Folly.
 
I should point out that not all zoos or animal sancturaies were set up for huiman entertainment. Some are just rescue centres that have opened their doors to the public to generate more income for these places to help rescue other animals or to care for the ones in need. There is a sanctary in Dorset that rescues apes from various places such as labs, illigal trade, pets that have gotten too big. Most of these apes could not be released back into the wild because they were parted from their parents at such an early age and do not have the skills that wild apes have and they would struggle and die if this was allowed. Which do you prefer? Animals to be kept safe from labs etc, in a safe and secure environment, or released back into the wild wre they would quickly die?
Link to Monkey World in case you are interested
 
Sancutaries for rescued animals are not zoos. Some zoos try to get in on the 'rescue' image to help them with a legitimate/noble purpose, but in the end, zoos are venues of entertainment.

What zoo is stocked with only rescued animals or animals that have not been traded/purchased amongst them and other zoos -- or ones that do not have animals which were captured from the wild, or offspring of animals that were captured in the wild? Are these injured animals which cannot be returned to the wild because of permanent injuries breeded so that a stock of them continues for future visitors?

Do these zoos, set up as 'sanctuaries,' have an intensive infrastructure meant to cater to visitors and their comforts? Do they have animal shows to entertain the visitors?

Some simple questions can soon let us know if they are actually zoos or sanctuaries.

If animals such as those rescued from labs or roadside injuries cannot be released back into the wild, they should be allowed to live out their lives in a naturally managed environment at a sanctuary -- a place where the atmosphere is not one built to cater to visitors or a carnival like atmosphere with rides, sliced pizza, and enclosures where animals can`t completely disappear if they want.

I know of Monkey World and have seen videos of the place. The atmosphere does not have a carnival like atmosphere and the primates from what I have read are all rescued animals from abusive or neglectful situations. Their environments are enriched to provide for the mental and physical needs. The management of the place is not actively in the market to swell its animal numbers for visitors, but accepts those that are in dire need of a home. They do not have the philosophy of trying to gather a bunch of different kinds of animals from all over the world for the curious.

So many city zoos have anywhere between 20 to 40 acres. If they focused on one animal like Monkey World and create an environment of primordal adventure of looking at a natural environment, then they could offer a valuable service in the area of rescue such as Monkey World. I hope that Monkey World will become the norm and model for future zoos (moving away from the zoo concept and toward the sanctuary concept) as they struggle to stay profitable in the face of fewer and fewer visitors.
 
Just last week a precedent has been set in Japanese courts slightly distancing animals from just mere property status.

Until recently all pets were considered just property and in past cases where, say a dog, was killed due to behaviour from someone else, it was prosecuted as denying rightful property to the owner and the value of the dog (i.e. that amount which it would take to buy a same kind/breed of dog) was rewarded to the plaintif/victim. Therefore, most awards were on average \30,000.

However, last week a judge ruled in a case in which a mongrel dog left to roam freely in the neighborhood by its owner and which caused the death of a dachshound, found that the plaintiff was entitled to approx \650,000 (about $6,000) citing that the dog was viewed as part of the family of the 73 yr old lady and that her emotional damage at this "family member`s" loss was to be taken into account.

The first ever decision like this in Japan. Always good to see animals in court which result in decisions not being based merely on blue book value of property.
 
When i wonder if i really can live in a touchy-feely world of lvoe and magic where everyone and everything gets along and nobody has to eat anybody else to you know, continue living, im reminded of the simple un-assailable reality of the nature of nature and the universe by this simple image.

Killer_whale_attack_1024.jpg

That image sums up everything about nature in some simple image.

"Life is pain, get over it."-A quote thats stayed with me a while.
 
nurizeko said:
"Life is pain, get over it."-A quote thats stayed with me a while.

"Life" need not be a constant state of "chronic pain". Pain rushes forward with peaks and ebbs with valleys. We have the ability to affect our lives and the environment in which we live our lives in a way that could lessen the height of the painful peaks and lengthen the breadth and widths of the unpainful valleys. To not try is to embrace futility.
 
Continuing on the theme that we do not have a right to impose on animals for our entertainment: zoos and aquariums often put animals in danger because the biologists that often supervise these exhibitions are ignorant. Why should an animal pay with its life because of human greed, entertainment, and downright ignorance? They shouldn`t. They should be granted the right to live a natural life and left alone as much as possible.

But, here is the result of biologists' ignorance and corporate handiwork for profit. An amazing short two minute clip if you have the time:

OCTOPUS EATS SHARK.
 
Often, zoos are said to be places of education -- a dismal reason for keeping them stocked with healthy animals that should be rehabilitated to the wild wherever possible. However, previously in this thread we have seen how they educate people on polar bears turning green with algae and that zoo officials learned to turn them white again by bleaching them. Yes, we learn a lot, don`t we?

Oh, and we also learn that zoo officials don`t care too much about the animals in their charge -- or are too ignorant about the animals in their charge -- that they mix two entirely different species of animals from totally different geographic areas. The result? -- Parents and children get a screaming education of a Barbary coast macaque monkey (native to Morocco) being chased and eaten alive by a sloth bear (native to India).

What a display, huh? Can you imagine it? If the screaming sound was anything like the pig my father castrated when I was a child -- it surely was horrifying.

And how do the officials at the zoo in Amsterdam explain the incident? -- ?gHarmony disturbed.?h!

..."In an area where Sloth bears, great apes and Barbary macaques have coexisted peacefully for a long time, the harmony was temporarily disturbed during opening hours on Sunday."

I don`t know. When I think about ?gharmony disturbed?h I imagine a baby crying on a transcontinental flight, or even a verbal scuffle or a perhaps even some pushing and shoving. An incident where a monkey is screaming as it is being EATEN ALIVE is more than ?gharmony disturbed.?h I would say "harmony" has collapsed and in this case an 'unatural' killing has occurred.

...the bear climbed onto a horizontal pole, and, standing stretched on two legs, "used its sharp canines to pull the macaque, which was shrieking and resisting, from its perch."
The bear then brought the animal to a concrete den, where three bears ate it.

The pictures are not bloody. Just shows the bear grasping it in its jaws and a terrified look on its face. If you want to see several pics -- all of which are not bloody -- just the bear nibbling and pulling the screaming monkey as it is clutching the pole for its dear life -- you can look here for a set of pics on google: Bears Eat Monkey. Besides being on Yahoo, these pics and story made the CBS evening news a few weeks ago.

Here is one and all are mostly like this one:

0562eat-macaque.jpg



But, in the end, I geuss a lot of little kids got an education on the dangers of zoos to their animals and biologists who just don`t have their act together.

Full story here: Bears Eat Monkey in Front of Zoo Visitors
 
Yeah, I heard it on the radio. The weird thing is, It's a honeybear, and they use to eat fruits, and occasionally small mammals. So it was freaky.
 
1. Eating meat is perfectly acceptable, we are humans and have the big brains we have because our ancestors ate meat.
2. Medical testing is acceptable as long as the animals are treated humanely.
3. Test for cosmetic purposes is not acceptable, if someone wants to use cosmetics then they need to assume the dangers associated with it. :grin:
4. Animals need to be treated with gentleness and respect, but if they need a swat to correct their behavior then they should get it. I have swatted my dog with a rolled up newspaper when they needed and slapped horses for unprovoked biting.
5. Zoos and animal refuges are necessary to try and protect endangered species. Once they are gone they are gone.
 
Physical punishment is very natural, it's one of natural way to educate. Look at pack of wolfs or chimpanzees. They don't explain or spend time to repeat tricks, the members of a pack are bitten, smack around, and chased in anger etc. This shows how things are done in animal kingdom. So get over it.
How can you explain to small kids not to hurt brothers or sisters, or not to do many stupid things. Some pain in buttocks can save their lives, or bring respect and orther.
I'm assuming that pain is not done by psychopathic individuals that hurt others for their enjoyment.
As long as physical punishment is used in proper way it is a vital tool in kids education.
Not to make my post too long, I generally agree with Maciamos and Mycernius posts on this subject.
 
Animals surely deserve to live their lives free from suffering and exploitation.All animals have the ability to suffer in the same way and to the same degree that humans do. They feel pain, pleasure, fear, frustration, loneliness, and motherly love. We believe that every creature with a will to live has a right to live free from pain and suffering.So we don't have the right to do this !!
 
Animals surely deserve to live their lives free from suffering and exploitation.All animals have the ability to suffer in the same way and to the same degree that humans do. They feel pain, pleasure, fear, frustration, loneliness, and motherly love. We believe that every creature with a will to live has a right to live free from pain and suffering.So we don't have the right to do this !!
 
As my Step-Father used to tell me when I was little "for what we hunt, we should learn to respect and honor their place on this earth" a speech I shall never forget. When it comes to zoos, I feel like it's okay for the purpose of education and taking care of endangered species but these creatures are our cousins, you go back far enough, every single one of us is family.
 

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