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View Poll Results: Death Penalty: For or against

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  • Yes, I am for the Death penalty

    12 26.09%
  • No, I am against the death penalty

    27 58.70%
  • I am not sure

    7 15.22%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #26
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    double post sorry


    Lacan,
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    I had so many names...

  2. #27
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    Perhaps in the future scientist will perfect the cryogenic process and prisoners can be stored at a minimal cost to society... until then...

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clawn
    I can see why you think that. But, what is to stop people wanting "revenge" because of that person's death. Say that your son, brother, husband, father, mother, or other close family member committed a terrible crime, would you feel that their life should end? Or, (as I think) would you rather see them doing labor every day just so they can live in the worst place imaginable?

    How about this then, if you killed the murderer, would he ever have a chance to feel remorse, to think to himself, "What in GOD'S NAME made me do that, I could be livin the good life, have a family. But no, now I'm stuck in this S*** hole for the rest of my life."

    Death shows mercy, in my opinion, to those who wish to die. If a murderer knows he's going to die as soon as he kills someone, he doesn't have to worry about regret or remorse. He knows the game is over as soon as he's caught. If he escapes the law, then he's free. If he gets detained, the game ends.

    With the death penalty, these people can't lose. And what would you rather play, a game you where you can't lose, or one where you probably will?
    No, no.

    You see, your argument to my way of thinking, actually presupposes a need for revenge and/or punishment!

    I'm not interested in that at all. I just want to get rid of garbage that has done harm! I'm not interested in wether or not a murderer or any other miscreant worthy of my death-dealing attention suffers or feels victimised in any way (if I did - I wouldn't propose the death penalty ... but all kinds of Mediaeval torture or something!).

    I just want them ..... gone!

    As for victims using the death penalty as "revenge" (which I agree, should not be the case. Especially if you've arrested the wrong guy!) ... then I would merely argue that victims' families do not sit on the bench ... and do not pass sentence; the courts do.

    As I've stressed in each of my posts - I have no intention of running around "knocking everybody off" at the drop of a hat because they haven't paid their parking tickets! It would be an extreme measure reserved for absolutely confirmed, no brainer, no doubt convictions ... in cases of particular obscenity.

    ... but then ....! Into the trash can!

    Perhaps you would see a lot less people executed under this philosophy than you do now! (I believe that annually, the state of Texas executes more people than any other Nation on earth! Several of these folks ultimately turn out to be innocent!)



    ジョン
    If you haven't been a Communist by the time you're 40 - then you don't have a heart.

    If you're still a Communist after the age of forty - you don't have a head ....

    (Denis Healey)

    If you're still a communist after the age of sixty ... you're coming to your senses again ....

    (Sensuikan San)

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by anjusan
    Perhaps in the future scientist will perfect the cryogenic process and prisoners can be stored at a minimal cost to society... until then...
    Ooooh! Deary me!

    Sorry Anjusan ... but, really, isn't that an even more barbaric answer than execution?

    I can only suppose that it would allow one to say "I haven't actually terminated someone's life!" .... just put 'em into a permanent coma and chucked 'em into a freezer for ..... a coupla hundred years ... ?

    A great conscience preserver I agree ... but .... uugh...!

    ジョン

  5. #30
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    Well, I agree my thought was a bit simplistic... and it certainly wouldn't alleviate the court costs of trying to find out his/her guilt or innocence...

  6. #31
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    Usenet recycle from July 2001:

    The whole idea of socially sanctioned killing ought to have some tinge
    of revenge/vengeance to it. Why? To maintain the basic humanity of the
    society doing the killing, that's why. Seems a contradiction, doesn't
    it?

    I'd rather think that we as humans succumbed to the temptations of one
    of our basic weaknesses and failings, the desire for vengeance, and
    sanctioned killing than to think that we had removed that and replaced
    it with cold, clinical, reasoned justification for engaging in the
    ultimate means of removing an undesirable from our midst.

    To me, there's no humanity in executing someone humanely.

    Don't misunderstand me. I don't say we should let the pendulum swing
    the other way and go back to drawing and quartering people or boiling
    counterfeiters in oil. There's no humanity in tortuous executions
    either. Hanging seems as near a reasonable middle ground as we are
    likely to find. That being said, I do think Japan should change all
    sorts of procedural things about the way it carries it out. Number one
    would be to give up the short-drop-and-strangle-'em method and go with
    the snap-the-neck method with drop distances calculated on body
    weight. Number two would be to have set execution dates. There may be
    exceptions, but it is hard to imagine anyone deserving the living hell
    of spending decades in prison under sentence of death never knowing
    when the boots tramping down the hall are coming to bring him
    lunch...or to drag him to the gallows. Again, not for his humanity,
    but for ours.

    _break_

    Why wouldn't I sympathize with the poor souls carrying out the
    execution? Based on what I have read of what performing that task has
    wrought on some of them and their families, I wouldn't wish it on my
    worst enemy.

    Perhaps you didn't catch that I was using the word "humanity" with a
    different-than-normal meaning? I meant that lying someone down on a
    gurney and injecting death-inducing chemicals into their pre-sedated
    worthless hides is too devoid of the human passions which demanded his
    death to begin with. Lethal injection is what you have done to a
    beloved pet, amid tears and regrets. Done to humans, it is just an
    effort to divorce ourselves as much as possible from rage, anger,
    vengeance...the "flip side" of our humanity...the side we'd rather
    pretend we don't have.

    We lie the person down and inject them instead of placing a muzzle
    next to their heads and pulling the trigger for precisely the opposite
    reason we do the same to Fido when arthritis and infirmity overtake
    him. We choose the same method of performing a task which is inspired
    by opposite motives and emotions.

    I agree with you in principle. I can accept that for the commission of
    certain crimes against society one's life is forfeit. Notice that my
    sole concern/objection is in the practicalities of having the guy die
    without having to make someone else kill him.

  7. #32
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    Welcome back mikecash, couldn't stay away?

  8. #33
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    Nice to see you here again, Mikecash!

    Anyway, the reason why I'm against the death penalty is because it is paradoxical (not sure if that's the right word). You have this 'moral' standard that says 'it's wrong to kill someone' - and then... someone who commits murder... as punishment they are condemned to death? That doesn't make sense to me. If killing someone is wrong, then it's wrong whoever does it. To say otherwise is making like certain people have more of a right than otherwise to judge who should live and who should die, and I think that's very suspect indeed, to put it mildly.

    No, let's make 'life' imprisonment be for life, in cases of murder and for highly dangerous criminals, that way we are not being hypocrites, there is also the chance to reprieve the wrongly-convicted guy, and... actually you could say death is a more merciful punishment, in fact, if someone had killed someone I loved, I would get more sense of 'revenge' to think of them suffering than to think they were happily dead - I would rather be the one dead.

  9. #34
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    Well Kinsao, it is a double standard-the state has the right to determine when to take a life, but individuals don't.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinsao
    You have this 'moral' standard that says 'it's wrong to kill someone' - and then... someone who commits murder... as punishment they are condemned to death? That doesn't make sense to me. If killing someone is wrong, then it's wrong whoever does it. To say otherwise is making like certain people have more of a right than otherwise to judge who should live and who should die, and I think that's very suspect indeed, to put it mildly.
    I am undecided on the death penalty. I don't think the arguments above are particularly valid though. In our society, we are bound by the laws of the land and be will punished if we break them.

    The state has plenty of powers that indivduals don't, and that we would find morally wrong if an indivdual did them, such as

    locking people up
    extracting money from them (taxes)
    requiring them to perform certain duties (jury service etc)
    taking children away from their parents

    These are all powers the state has but would be morally wrong if we as indivudals excercised. So I don't think you can use this argument against capital punishment.

    There may be other reasons, personally I think the burden of proof is a powerful argument given terminating someones life is pretty terminal and doesn't give us the chance to correct any micarriages of justice down the line.

    Comes down to numbers at the end - I'd be happy to see 99.99% as a accurate conviction rate... then is 99.9% good enough? 99%? 95%? Hard to know where to draw the line.

  11. #36
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    The 'state' is made up of individuals. In the end it's a collective of individual people who come together to make a judgement on whether someone is going to live or die. And it's one individual who has the burden of administering the injection or working the trap door.

    locking people up
    extracting money from them (taxes)
    requiring them to perform certain duties (jury service etc)
    taking children away from their parents
    These - like punishments for crimes, including the death penalty as punishment - are all things done by the state/collective for the (alleged) reason of the good of society as a whole and the majority of individuals within it (locking someone up because they are a danger to others, taking a child away from its parents because its parents are harming it, taking taxes in order to fund services for the state population...) The death penalty indeed falls under that argument, because of course it would be unthinkable to allow a dangerous criminal their freedom, whether now or even 30 or 40 years down the line. But what does the death penalty provide in the way of benefit to other individuals in society that can't be provided by a life imprisonment? The whole thing is to protect people. Keeping someone in prison stops them from going out and killing or harming anyone again. Period.

    I just feel that once you start to think of the 'state' as an entity separate from individuals, with its own powers, that becomes dangerous. I recognise that for practical reasons there are certain things in governance that have to be undertaken by a collective in order to work at all, but I still remain deeply uneasy about too much state control, and it pays to be very wary of the things that they already do control, even such things as jury service, the power of imprisonment, 'care' of children... and of course, taxes!

  12. #37
    Mike Cash
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    Quote Originally Posted by Index
    Welcome back mikecash, couldn't stay away?
    Never said I was going to.

  13. #38
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    Yes! Mikecash!
    You have bewitched me, body and soul...

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lacan
    If an innocent is executed, shall we require death penalty for the judge and jury ?
    Excellent question.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo
    Totally against it. I'm glad here in Europe we have permanently done away with it.
    Yeah that's really great. Even tho i'm against also, i sometimes think all this serial killers and men who raped women deserve death in some way. They destroyed someones live, someone died because of them. Anyway, prison for the rest of the life is an good idea too, as long as they don't excape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacan
    If an innocent is executed, shall we require death penalty for the judge and jury ?
    That's why i'm against. You can't always be 100% sure you got the right person!

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensuikan San
    With the greatest respect, I do not think that the questions posed in the poll were sufficiently qualified. And surely, some qualification has to be present in a question of such importance.

    I shall therefore qualify my answer.

    (Sorry folks... but) I voted "in favour" of the death penalty.

    With a very large, very obvious .... "BUT" .....!

    My reasoning is this :

    Occasionally, one comes across the really habitual, despotic, psychotic, depraved, unremorseful, disdainful, violent animal among us - who we politely refer to as a "criminal".

    The sort of person who, for example, delights in beating old ladies to death ... or repeatedly rapes (for fun, or money via porn flicks ... or both ...) young children as young as eighteen months of age ... the sort of person who doesn't give a damn about the results of selling 'Crystal Meth' or 'Crack' or whatever to the ten-year olds at the local school as long as he or she makes a buck. The sort of person who will lure a fifteen-year old girl from a forum such as this one (yes!) and kidnap her, rape her repeatedly ...... you know ...

    (Some of) these folks are beyond redemption!

    They are filth. Scum. Not worth the effort!

    Top 'em! Get rid of 'em.

    BUT!


    .... Don't get the wrong guy!

    This is my qualification.

    If the death penalty were to be imposed by (Judge) Sensuikan ....

    "Beyond all reasonable doubt" would not do it. (Unreasonable doubt .... is still ... doubt!)

    It would have to be "Beyond any doubt at all"

    I see nothing wrong with that at all.

    So ... if you're 'caught in the act', recorded on video ..... or .... I suppose, nothing else ...... (even a confession can't be relied on ... !) ...... it would be "Good-Bye cruel world"!

    ....... and a bloody good riddance!


    ジョン

    I voted no--but you make a good case.

    My only problem is that I still wouldn't trust my government to follow that regulation--the police where I live regularly kill people while taking them into custody, and nothing is said or done about it aside from the ocasional questioning article in the left newpaper.

    If the police are killing people unjustifiably, I certinly can't expect the rest of the judicial system to be more trustworthy.

    On the other hand, it makes the death penalty a moot point if they execute you before you are ever even charged with a crime...
    Baka ningen.

  17. #42
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    Off with their heads!
    For information on the pros and cons of teaching at Nova English schools in Japan, check out

  18. #43
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    I have to agree with one of the persons above. If your punsihed by the law and murdering is wrong, then what gives the state to murder you?

    my parents support it, so does my grandma (and shes deeply religious, and my pastor) it really makes me feel how barbaric, rude, and cowardly america is.

    I just want to move to another country, maybe not japan, maybe sweden or something. ::sigh::

  19. #44
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    I say, if you deprive someone of their right to live, you have forfitted your own right to live. What's the point in putting someone in jail until they die?

  20. #45
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    do not murder

    I am an atheist but I still don't understand, isn't "In god we trust" an american motto

    I thought god said:
    DO NOT MURDER
    and not
    DO NOT MURDER*







    *unless that ba$tard is a murderer himself

  21. #46
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    I'm not against death penalty as long as the judge and jury guarantee with their lives the culpability of the sentenced person.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lacan
    I'm not against death penalty as long as the judge and jury guarantee with their lives the culpability of the sentenced person.
    That sounds sensible, but then again, who would take their lives if they don't do it themselves?

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    That sounds sensible, but then again, who would take their lives if they don't do it themselves?
    some other jury who garantees their culpability

  24. #49
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    Totally against too. Sad to see that only 59% voted so.

  25. #50
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    The death penalty serves no reasonable purpose.

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