Philosophy Free Will vs Determinism

[Duo]

I dont beleive in determinism.... i beleive that even the smallest action can have the biggest effect... for example you watching a cop movie at 5 may instill the idea of you wantin to be a cop in your life and later on you do

 

[No-name]

If you are just an actor in a play- play your part well- it is the only role you will ever have. If free will is an illusion, enjoy it as much as you can.

 

[Revenant]

Sounds very stoic, and I completely agree. In some ways, holding the perception that there is mostly determinism causes me to feel compassion for those that most wouldn't.

 

[Rancid__]

There is free will, we are not slaves of any kind of determination. We can choose whether to change our sex, or to change the way we look. If there is determination then it would exist in a small domain. We can choose whether to go left or right, the only determination is that we will have to choose, and our choises will lead to another choice, and so on..

 

[Tsuyoiko]

There is free will, we are not slaves of any kind of determination. We can choose whether to change our sex, or to change the way we look.

The point is, just how free are those choices really? It is not possible everywhere to change one's sex, for example, and even where it is possible, it is not easy - there are many constraints that make that choice anything but free. And even the decision to want to change one's sex is unlikely to be a free choice, but rather is influenced by a person's physical and mental states, partly determined as early as conception. How are we free to change our look? I would like thinner legs, a smaller nose and nicer skin, but I have no realistic way of changing those things at all.

If there is determination then it would exist in a small domain.

I would argue the opposite - that almost everything is determined, and it is the choices that exist only in a small domain

We can choose whether to go left or right, the only determination is that we will have to choose, and our choises will lead to another choice, and so on

I think that's a good example of just how limited our choices are - they're down to tiny things like 'left' or 'right', although of course those tiny choices can lead to huge consequences.

 

[Rancid__]

Actully, you can pay a surgeount to do it. All skin problems, and thin legs, and whatever you want if you can afford it, you got it.

But we can choose, from small things to big. Becouse if we wouldn't have a choice what would be the reason for all the wars, deaths, and sufferings in the world. Man is a master of his own fate.

 

[No-name]

If I choose to believe in predeterminism, then was it chosen for me? And If I am predestined to be a sinner, why is it my fault? Did I really want to write this or was it my destiny?.....must....turn....logic circuit...OFF-- will only...cause...PAIN.

 

[Rancid__]

If I choose to believe in predeterminism, then was it chosen for me? And If I am predestined to be a sinner, why is it my fault? Did I really want to write this or was it my destiny?.....must....turn....logic circuit...OFF-- will only...cause...PAIN.

that's a good thing to do right now:haihai:

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Actully, you can pay a surgeount to do it. All skin problems, and thin legs, and whatever you want if you can afford it, you got it.

Exactly! If you can afford it. So it's not about choice, it is about all the determinism that put you into your current situation. I might decide to get a nose job. It would cost about GBP3,000, so straightaway I can't afford it - I am constrained by finances. I can't borrow the money because I have been raised not to take on debts - so I am constrained by my upbringing. Even if I did have the money, I probably wouldn't do it because even though I don't like my nose I am used to it, and I don't like change - I am constrained by my personality. My husband wouldn't want me to do it - I am constrained by relationships. I am afraid to go into hospital, just one of the many anxieties that I have inherited from various family members - I am constrained by my genes. So what choice do I have really? I could kid myself that I can choose to be reckless and not let those things constrain me, but I know from experience that it's not going to happen.

If you feel that in any given situation you can just do exactly what you want, can you go to the moon tomorrow? Of course not. The difference between that and any other situation is one of degree only, IMO.

 

[Rancid__]

Exactly! If you can afford it. So it's not about choice, it is about all the determinism that put you into your current situation. I might decide to get a nose job. It would cost about GBP3,000, so straightaway I can't afford it - I am constrained by finances. I can't borrow the money because I have been raised not to take on debts - so I am constrained by my upbringing. Even if I did have the money, I probably wouldn't do it because even though I don't like my nose I am used to it, and I don't like change - I am constrained by my personality. My husband wouldn't want me to do it - I am constrained by relationships. I am afraid to go into hospital, just one of the many anxieties that I have inherited from various family members - I am constrained by my genes. So what choice do I have really? I could kid myself that I can choose to be reckless and not let those things constrain me, but I know from experience that it's not going to happen.

If you feel that in any given situation you can just do exactly what you want, can you go to the moon tomorrow? Of course not. The difference between that and any other situation is one of degree only, IMO.

but your parents decided to raise you like that, it was their choice. You can also decide tomorrow to take a debt and do the nose job. I'm affraid of hights, but that didn't stop me to climb on a mountian. It was my choice to do it, even when I was very affraid. Where's the determinism there?

 

[Revenant]

Why would you want to take on a huge debt to get a nosejob? Why would you want to climb a mountain when you're afraid of heights? What motivates these actions, and does the same motivation work for every person?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

but your parents decided to raise you like that, it was their choice. You can also decide tomorrow to take a debt and do the nose job. I'm affraid of hights, but that didn't stop me to climb on a mountian. It was my choice to do it, even when I was very affraid. Where's the determinism there?

This could go on forever! My parents didn't choose to raise me that way, but were constrained to by everything that led to that point, and so on ad infinitum.

Rancid, can you choose to go to the moon tomorrow?

 

[Rancid__]

Yeah, there's this on line page where you pay and buy your part of the moon. So I got my own part of the moon as a present. all I have to do is wait a technological progress and I'm gonna own my own house at the moon.
Anyway, I climbed a mountain becouse I wanted to see the world from a biger height and it was great!!

exactly, you don't want to do a nose job, you just said it yourself, it's your desigion. Anyway you belive what you like, I respect your opinion very much and you gave some good arguments, but I don't feel like I need to discuss this anymore

 

[bureto]

Has anyone applied this debate to the theory of evolution and natural selection? If the evolution is based on random genetic mutations, wouldn't that meant the mutations are uncaused? And if the mutations are uncaused, determinism would then be false.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Has anyone applied this debate to the theory of evolution and natural selection? If the evolution is based on random genetic mutations, wouldn't that meant the mutations are uncaused? And if the mutations are uncaused, determinism would then be false.

It's interesting how the same idea brings me to the opposite conclusion! The randomness of natural selection implies to me absence of control, which in turn implies absence of choice.

 

[bureto]

It's interesting how the same idea brings me to the opposite conclusion! The randomness of natural selection implies to me absence of control, which in turn implies absence of choice.

All that Determinism states is that everything is caused. So, going off of the definition of random - having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective; of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely - it looks as though the genetic mutations are uncaused. i.e. given the exact same set of prior circumstances, the genetic mutation has an equal chance of occuring or not occuring.

So, if these genetic mutations are truly random (uncaused), then by definition Determinism cannot be true.

Edit: Which is not to say that there is another driving force behind evolution and natural selection which has not been discovered yet.

Second Edit: I do believe that free will and determinism are compatible. Your choices and decisions act as the cause, and events prior to that shape your decisions and choices, etc.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

All that Determinism states is that everything is caused. So, going off of the definition of random - having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective; of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely - it looks as though the genetic mutations are uncaused. i.e. given the exact same set of prior circumstances, the genetic mutation has an equal chance of occuring or not occuring.
So, if these genetic mutations are truly random (uncaused), then by definition Determinism cannot be true.
Edit: Which is not to say that there is another driving force behind evolution and natural selection which has not been discovered yet.

OK, on a strict definition of Determinism you're right. I'm not really applying it to every event. I'm concentrating just on human choice, which I think is at least partly, probably mostly, determined. See David Hume.

Edit: Just seen your second edit - that's what I'm talking about!

 

[bureto]

OK, on a strict definition of Determinism you're right. I'm not really applying it to every event. I'm concentrating just on human choice, which I think is at least partly, probably mostly, determined. See David Hume.
Edit: Just seen your second edit - that's what I'm talking about!

I absolutely agree with your statement and the Hume article. Determinism is necessary for free will. If our actions didn't have a cause or purpose, we'd all just be running around in chaos. Although I think it's pretty obvious there's no case for indeterminism (which I'm assuming means that nothing has a cause).

However, my original point was simply the implications the theory of evolution (if correct) would have on determinism. If genetic mutations are random, determinism would be false. But just because determinism is false, doesn't mean our decision and actions aren't caused. It just means that not everything has cause.

 

[Maciamo]

Modern neurosciences supports determinism more than free will. Based on the principle that everything influences everything constantly (permanent momentum of the universe acting like an eternal "domino effect"), I am also one of those who think that free will is an illusion, a deception of our self-consciousness.

What we commonly assumed to be "free will" is a conditionment through learning and experiencing. People have to learn to behave like society wants them to, to be respectful of laws, rules or other people... These things are not innate, and neither is free will. People are endowed with reasoning skills but they are limited by their knowledge, experience, environment, mood, health and many other things. So our decisions are based on a very limited range of possibilities in each situation.

Some conditionments are so strong that it requires an incredible amount of energy to go against them. This is true of addictions and habits (e.g. smoking, sex, browsing the Internet...), of phobias, or social rules (how many people would walk naked in the street even for a lot of money ?), or even of politeness.

The will to stop an addiction is also determined by many possible factors : realisation that it hurts one's health (through experience and observation), realisation that one is addicted (which can only happen if the person has the knowledge that some things are addictive), being told by others to stop because it damages us or being challenged to be able to stop an addiction (external incentive), etc. This shows that every single of our "own" decisions are in fact the result of at least one external stimulus, whether we realise it or not.

Even once we have past all the conditionments, our behaviour and decision are greatly influenced by our environment (food, comfort level, feeling of danger, material needs...) and by our mood (also reliant on the environment, e.g. temperature, oxygen-level, air pressure, tiredness, health problems, annoying people, etc.). As we cannot control the world around us, our freedom is actually very limited, and our free will always dependent on the environment.

This article from The Econonist gives more extreme examples : Liberalism and neurology : Free to choose?

As our decisions are always made based on our genetic neurological predisposition ("physical brain"), and our present knowledge, experience and mood ("biochemistry of the brain"), it can reasonably be said that our whole existence is purely determined. It isn't determined only by our environement, by by our physical body (brain included), and by the whole universe at a varying degree and intensity.

It is essential to understand that we are part of a whole. Our body isn't separated from our environment. The air we breathe, the food we eat, the heat that warms up our body, the light that act on our mood and skin, the people we interact with (willingly or not), the colours we see, the sounds we hear... everthing interacts with us constantly, influences our being, and eventually determines our decision making.


Not understanding the functioning of the human brain causes people to believe in things that do not exist like free will, the soul, heaven, or even god...