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    HUNTING: The Cruel Sport of Depravity

    What person can say hunting is a sport? It is a viscious game of murder where animals do not have much of a chance.

    There is no need for hunting for food anymore (except in some very remote regions of the world) and therefore it should cease to exist as an activity sanctioned by the government or even be permitted on private game reserves.

    Culling to control populations also is a ridiculous argument. But, I am more than happy to entertain that discussion with debate for those who think hunting is needed for that, or any other reason.
    [up]"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
    --Albert Einstein[/up]

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    THE CRAZY OLD GUY !! Frank D. White's Avatar
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    Not So Simple.

    Here in Maine, away from the bigger cities and towns, many people depend on hunting and fishing to eat. There are cases where over-population leads to disease and starvation, especially with deer. Some animals seem to thrive on controled hunting. Our moose population in Maine has increased in size and become more healthy since hunting season was opened on them several years ago. The hunting and fishing here in Maine helps pay for many wildlife programs and polution control programs and provides money to set aside land to be kept wild and open to the public.I will admit, I don't hunt anymore, but hunting does have some good points and would cause a lot of problems if done away with here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    Here in Maine, away from the bigger cities and towns, many people depend on hunting and fishing to eat. ...

    Frank

    Frank, I doubt they depend on them to survive. I would suggest they hunt to supplement their food. Now, if they are so rural as to where there is no grocery store within driving distance, then maybe I would accept that, but I would be willing to bet that there is some kind of stores, albeit small ones, that are near enough to shop at.

    In the day before the automobile, then I could imagine that distances to grocery stores would not be feasible to cover. But, not now. If someone doesn`t want to get in their car and drive an hour or two once or twice a week to stock up, well, then, it is a question of being lazy, not of necessity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    ...

    1) There are cases where over-population leads to disease

    2)... and starvation, especially with deer. Some animals seem to thrive on controled hunting.

    Frank
    1) What disease is a result of overpopulation?

    2) Starvation is the result of the problems brought about by hunters who have destroyed the natural predators. Starvation in and of itself is not so bad for creating healthy numbers for what a land area can support. A population crash would allow for the species to come into balance with the fauna. Animals also have a self regulatory mechanism of fetal abortion and uterus absorption when food is not enough to support them in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    Some animals seem to thrive on controled hunting.

    Frank

    Well, I`m glad you saw fit to qualify it with "seem." With that, you can grudgingly cede that you don`t know for sure.

    Here is the logic you want us to swallow, "We are killing you for your own good."

    Now, does that sound right to you? To me it doesn`t. IF that were the best answer to handle overpopulation problems, then there are 6 billion of us crowding this planet that should be elgible for some action for "our own good."

    The more healthier route for the ecosystem would be for predators to be reintroduced. But, the hunters and farmers are opposed to that because they get the profits from exploitation. Less wolves, mountain lions, and coyotes killing deer means larger herds for hunting.

    The fact is, hunters like the overpopulation problem. They have manipulated the ecosystem just so that would happen so that then they can scream how necessary they are since the wolves are no longer around to do their job in the system. If they didn`t like the overpopulationn problem, and still didn`t want to reintroduce the wolf, then why not let the population crash to a sustainable number that cycles naturally every few years?

    Perhaps the wildlife agencies, hunting groups, NRA, and hunting paraphanalia retailors and all their lobbyists wouldn`t like it because it would mean large losses in revenue -- not so much that families in Maine going hungry.

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    You are right..hunting is not a sport, but a way of life!

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    I'm not a hunter, nor have I ever been out hunting, but i woud rather eat meat from a deer that's been shot in the woods than a cow that's been transported to a slawterhose and tormented befor it's killed.
    Sure there's a chanse that a hunter may not make a perfect hit everytime and the animal will have to suffer a bit befor dieing, but atleast it hade the chanse to live a free life up untill it's death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ullvarg
    1. I'm not a hunter, nor have I ever been out hunting, but i woud rather eat meat from a deer that's been shot in the woods than a cow that's been transported to a slawterhose and tormented befor it's killed.

    2. Sure there's a chanse that a hunter may not make a perfect hit everytime and the animal will have to suffer a bit befor dieing, but atleast it hade the chanse to live a free life up untill it's death.

    1. Both are unnecessary and therefore one should not feel it is an "either or" proposition one is face with. I would not like to have to entertain thoughts on my murder either through forced drowning or asphyxiation.

    2. And it could have lived longer had a hunter not put a shot in its gut allowing it to get away and die a slow painful death. It is wrong to assume that your use of the word "chance" somehow means that these animals that are injured and die slowly and or never recovered are a very small percentage of the total.

    Oh, and don`t forget, nearly 50 to 100 people are killed each year due to hunting accidents in the U.S alone -- not to mention the the other deaths that occur due to hunting paraphanalia that is left carelously around the house for kids to find or that which is used when someone is in a fit of rage at a spouse or decides to use for suicidal purposes.

    So, do we say, all those deaths which are from industry related products directly involved with hunting or of the deaths that occur while hunting are just lives sacrificed for the joy of hunting by a small part of the population? Why do you think those lives lost are justified so that a few can enjoy going into the woods and kill things that often they are too fat and out of shape to even chase after and recover after it has been wounded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by strongvoicesforward
    1. Both are unnecessary and therefore one should not feel it is an "either or" proposition one is face with. I would not like to have to entertain thoughts on my murder either through forced drowning or asphyxiation.

    2. And it could have lived longer had a hunter not put a shot in its gut allowing it to get away and die a slow painful death. It is wrong to assume that your use of the word "chance" somehow means that these animals that are injured and die slowly and or never recovered are a very small percentage of the total.

    Oh, and don`t forget, nearly 50 to 100 people are killed each year due to hunting accidents in the U.S alone -- not to mention the the other deaths that occur due to hunting paraphanalia that is left carelously around the house for kids to find or that which is used when someone is in a fit of rage at a spouse or decides to use for suicidal purposes.

    So, do we say, all those deaths which are from industry related products directly involved with hunting or of the deaths that occur while hunting are just lives sacrificed for the joy of hunting by a small part of the population? Why do you think those lives lost are justified so that a few can enjoy going into the woods and kill things that often they are too fat and out of shape to even chase after and recover after it has been wounded?
    I don't know about the US situation, but here in Sweden there's usualy around 10 death's due to hunting each year, and to be alowed to hunt you need to take a clase and a serie of tests. The hunter's are not alowed to keep their rifle at home in 1 peice, thei got to pick it to peices and and stor the peices in diffrent places of the house, and there's a limit to how much amonition 1 is alowed to have in the house, so it ain't that easy for a kid to use it, think that just happens ones every other year here, but im not sure.
    About the hole suicade use of a weapon, I'm all for suicade so i don't think that's a valid argument, but that's a hole difrent discution.

    People wount stop eating meat, I myself don't eat massive amounts of meat but I do eat it, when i eat meet i prefer to eat something that's been hunted in the wood, because atleast here in sweden the farmanimals are raised at one end of the country and then they are transported to the other end to be slautered just because it's cheaper.

    And I don't look apon hunting as a sport, I look apon it as a good alternative to slautering farmanimal to put food on the tabel, because lets face it all the people on this planet wount stop eating meet, meet consumption have stagered the last couple of years here in Sweden.

    I do like to eat vegiterian alternatives, but i don't think ill ever stop eating meet entierly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ullvarg
    People won't stop eating meat, ...
    We can be quite sure that by the time we die, many will still be eating meat. But, our lives are only 100 years maximum. Let`s not rule out possibilities of 300 to 400 years from now.

    Here is what one of the greatest minds (with great insights and ideas of brilliance and discovery) on the topic of vegetarianism and its relativity to human survival had to say:

    "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
    --Albert Einstein


    Great thing about "evolution" -- it is never static. That is why foresight into the future should be looked at with a very wide view and not based on the status quo of today or the prejudices one holds now. That is a hard thing to do, but it is brilliant to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ullvarg
    ... lets face it, all the people on this planet won't stop eating meat, meat consumption has staggered the last couple of years here in Sweden.
    If that is the case in Sweden, then I would say that momentum is building for the vegetarian diet. Where people fall on the spectrum of their eating habbits is changing.


    I do like to eat vegiterian alternatives, but i don't think ill ever stop eating meet entierly.
    I thought the same, too. I was once, not too long ago, a very heavy meat eater and could never conceive becoming a vegetarian. People change. Well, some do. I was surprised I did. Being exposed to literature and not being afraid to examine one's life and why they believe what they do can let one come to changes more easily.

    We all know the people who just don`t like debate or to change at all. Those who are least likely to listen to arguments against their views are the ones least likely to change.

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    Hunting can definitely be a part of wildlife management. I live in a forrest that is managed- most of the natural predators are gone, the natural range is limited, there are roads and houses up here, and garbage that these animals feed on- and definite cycles of limits and overpopulation.

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    THE CRAZY OLD GUY !! Frank D. White's Avatar
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    What I Ment Was.....

    many people in northern Maine are very poor and don't have resources such as food banks or welfare to help them out. Many won't accept handouts. They would rather work for their food by hunting it. All you answers are fine in a book world, but will never hold water in the world of reality. "If this" & "if that" as quick & easy solutions usually don't happen in the real world; maybe they could "if" people were perfect and did the "right" thing. That rearely seems to happen in our imperfect world.

    Frank

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    ...many people in northern Maine are very poor and don't have resources such as food banks or welfare to help them out. Many won't accept handouts. They would rather work for their food by hunting it.
    Well, if these people are living day to day as in the "old days" of survival, then they should think about joining the 21st century by marching out of their backwoods delapidated shacks and buses on cement blocks to the urban centers in search of a job.

    That's what people in Appellatia do -- they come down from the hills to Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, or Louisville.

    Again, I would really like to see some government report that shows us how many people whose survival depends on hunting. I am talking about their survival. I am not talking about a choice to remain somewhere and therefore they hunt to augment their food -- I am talking about a real need and necessity to hunt in order to live. Do you have something like that you can direct me to?

    I would guess if those people in the Western Nations exist, then they are an anomaly. However, I am not talking about anomalies, like them, or like people in the Amazon or the arctic circle. I am talking about the majority of hunters. They and their "sport of hobby and pleasure" are unneeded and should be phased out. They should be made extinct through laws and regulation.


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    Quote Originally Posted by strongvoicesforward
    Well, if these people are living day to day as in the "old days" of survival, then they should think about joining the 21st century by marching out of their backwoods delapidated shacks and buses on cement blocks to the urban centers in search of a job.

    That's what people in Appellatia do -- they come down from the hills to Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, or Louisville.
    Aw ****. You know, I was really trying to give you the benifit of the doubt--but you've just proved my initial assumption true:

    Like most activists--including myself back when I still was one--you are bigoted, spoiled, and horribly misinformed.

    "Marching out of their backwoods dillapidated shacks" indeed--what part of "poor" did you not understand?

    Not everyone is blessed with enough money to live in the 21st century--frankly it's a miracle I manage to get by, and there are plenty of people out there who are poorer than me.

    Not everyone can afford homes, or even rent for that matter--I myself benefit from living in a state with a housing assistance program that pays the majority of my rent, or I would still be living in a tent.

    I say "still" living because I was homeless for a time--the only apartment I could find in my price range had major plumbing problems, and was condemned--forcing me to move out with no where I could afford to go.

    For the same reason, I don't own a car. Not everyone has the luxury of driving you spoiled, pompus, ass!

    I've never owned a car--my parents had one for a while, but it was old and after breaking down several times it finally got to the point where the repairs cost more than they could afford, so for most of my life I have not had access to a car.

    This is exactly whats wrong with the idea of animal rights activism--you sit in comfort and luxury with no idea what it is like to struggle to survive, and then decide that because you can do without something, everybody else should too!

    You claim to want to help animals, but you simply DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

    What disease is caused by overpopulation?
    ALL OF THEM!

    Overpopulation makes diseases pass like wildfire though a group of animals, and increases the chances of them getting diseases in the first place because the stress and malnutrition weakens their immune systems.

    How can hunting an animal increase it's population?

    BECAUSE THE ANIMALS BIRTH RATES NATURALLY INCREASE TO COMPENSATE!

    Humans are one of the natural predators of deer and other game animals--and those animals have a myriad of defenses built in to respond and work with being hunted. When you remove these natural pressures, you disrupt the balance of nature and harm the animals you claim you want to protect.

    I say "claim" because of this gem:

    You said you would rather an animal die of starvation that be shot to death.

    Obviously you have never gone hungy.

    I have--and would have gladly had a double barreled shotgun rammed up my ass and fired than continue to experience the agony of my own stomach EATING ITSELF ALIVE!

    And as if all of this wasn't enough to prove you to be an ignorant, faschist bigot...

    Quote Originally Posted by strongvoicesforward
    They should be made extinct through laws and regulation.
    Humans are animals too, and here you--a self proclaimed "animal rights activist"--are calling for the govenment enforced extinction of a group of animals because you don't like the things they do.

    What about a human animal's rights?

    Even if we did all have the money to own a house and a car and drive to the grocery store and buy expensive, animal free products--we have the right not to!

    YOU ARE NOT AN ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST!

    YOU ARE AN IGNORANT, SPOILED, HITLER WANNABE!

    I hope a pack of wild animals eats you alive, you disgusting waste.

    [edit] Sorry for taking my voice out of the "debate" Sabro, but debating with people like this is pointless. Also, if I get banned for this post, I want everyone to know it was ******* worth it! [/edit]
    Baka ningen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reiku
    YOU ARE NOT AN ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST!

    YOU ARE AN IGNORANT, SPOILED, HITLER WANNABE!

    I hope a pack of wild animals eats you alive, you disgusting waste.

    Wow, Reiku! I guess your hope for civility in discussion is a one way street, huh? I was looking forward to addressing your comments and thought you wanted them addressed. Looks like you were just in the mood for a rant, though. So, I will let your comments lay where they are.

    I don`t know, but if you ever reconsider and would like to hear some replies to your comments, let me know by creating another post with them utilizing some self control and I will oblige you. However, I am guessing that may be a little beyond you since you came to this way of replying only after 3 posts in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    All you answers are fine in a book world, but will never hold water in the world of reality. "If this" & "if that" as quick & easy solutions usually don't happen in the real world; maybe they could "if" people were perfect and did the "right" thing. That rearely seems to happen in our imperfect world.


    Frank, do you see the logic you are putting forth here? It is one of apathy and futilism. You seem to say that it is just too hard so not lets even try. However, you do admit that the answers are "fine." You think that just because people are not perfect then the answers that are fine or that should be found in a perfect world are therefore out of reach for us to attempt implementing.

    The same arguments against ending slavery were put forth:
    Free black people in a perfect world would be fine, but this world is not perfect therefore it can't happen.

    Now, does that sound right to you? Don`t be bogged down by the contents of the formula -- look at the logic of it -- the tracks on which the argument sits upon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Hunting can definitely be a part of wildlife management. I live in a forrest that is managed- most of the natural predators are gone

    Hunting need not be a part of wildlife management. It is not necessary. Birth control techniques can also be employed. There have been some successes in showing that salt licks can be laced with birth control chemicals to prevent ovulation.

    But, even if that were not feasible, natural population crashes regulate species quite well without hunting. Again, though, through that process the exploitative industries of state and private ventures will not gain to profit.

    That is one of the reasons why these businesses and agencies don`t really want to see an introduction of predators to do the job they want to keep on doing. I mean, if wolves controlled the deer, the hunters would have no reason to kill deer. Well, they would, but then they would have to admit their main reason is that they just enjoy killing things. But, that would unmask them. With the predators gone, they can smugly assert they are loving nature by helping nature by killing off parts of her. It is an absurd lie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    ...and garbage that these animals feed on- and definite cycles of limits and overpopulation.
    Oh, yes! Those hunters sure do know how to stalk and find those black bears to kill. Nothing more difficult than finding a garbage pit in the forest or near a small town and just sit behind a tree downwind from it and wait for an unsuspecting bear to come eat human waste material.

    Lots of skill involved in that, and it surely must be a site to see a beer coming for breakfast because it is hungry to only be met with some lead entering through parts of its body.

    I guess that is the mighty brave hunter, killing a garbage pit bear and then returning to his sofa to snap open a beer for a football game and some bragging rights to his buds. I don`t think they would like it much if when the Dominos pizza man rings the door bell and the delivery boy "bags" the man who answers the door. "Surprise, surprise, surprise, you unsuspecting man coming in search of your dinner."


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    I don't really have problems with hunting or hunters- as long as they buy tags and follow the rules which most of them do. I don't want my house or dog being shot by mistake. Ideally I want them to eat what they kill and use as much as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    I don't really have problems with hunting or hunters-
    I have a problem with exploitation, causing fear, pain, misery, and death. I have a problem with frustrated hunters shooting up "no tresspassing signs," leaving litter in the forest, shooting pets, taking pot shots at livestock, using lands supported by taxes from the majority of the population who for the most part are not hunting supporters.

    ...as long as they buy tags and follow the rules which most of them do.
    I wouldn`t be so quick to pronounce most of them following the rules. That would require a familiarity with the majority of them which I suspect you do not enjoy.

    I don't want my house or dog being shot by mistake. Ideally I want them to eat what they kill and use as much as possible.
    And, I would suggest that during hunting seasons many dogs are killed by hunters. I am confidant that many rural town veterinarians report a large increase of gunshot injured animals during hunting season.

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    Also re introduction of predators would solve the population control problem, but create a host of others. Our forrest is high use, high traffic, semi-urban-- far too close to too many people for wolves or grizzlys. Even the black bears, big cats and coyotes who live up here have problems. We're tightly encircled by cities and the desert and such a program would present too significant a danger to attempt.

    I don't hunt, I'm just a bit too nearsighted for anything but paintball...but in this case our deer are one step from being domesticated. They are protected, counted, fostered and eventually culled when the human managers decide there are too many. It is one step away from ranching them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Also re introduction of predators would solve the population control problem, but create a host of others. Our forrest is high use, high traffic, semi-urban-- far too close to too many people for wolves or grizzlys. Even the black bears, big cats and coyotes who live up here have problems. We're tightly encircled by cities and the desert and such a program would present too significant a danger to attempt.

    Yes, it would solve the problem and it makes no sense to live off the idea of accepting the dangers associated with hunting over those associated with predators nearby.

    The list of human deaths directly related to hunters and hunting and their paraphanalia far outstrips deaths of humans as a result of predator attacks.

    You could easily count 50 to 1000 deaths a year based on hunting and hunting paraphanalia. Go back a hundred years and do the math and see how many deaths that adds up to. Now, go back a hundred years and see how many deaths have been caused by coyotes or wolves. You may find one or two. For mountain lions you may find 5 to 10. For bears you may find 20. Now, what pales in relationship to each other?

    Wolves by nature are weary and for the most part flee at man's approach. Mountain lions by and large are the same. Coyotes, too. Bears, while after being habituated to garbage and gut piles may confront man, they, too for the most part will try to avoid encounters.

    Sure, reintroduction could possibly lead to some isolated incidences, but those by and large are much fewer than the kind emanating from a barrel.

    Barring reintroduction of predators, if safety is the concern, which you put forth, then hunting should be banned since they cause more deaths than predators and prey animals can control their own populations through crashes, abortions, and uteran absorption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    ... our deer are one step from being domesticated. They are protected, counted, fostered and eventually culled when the human managers decide there are too many. It is one step away from ranching them.
    Yes, it is. But, it need not be.
    Taking the value of life, empathy, and ethics into account, hunting need not be continued and could be banned.

    I think it will be a while, but voices calling for its end are becoming more numerous. It will not end overnight, but those against it are becoming stronger and are getting bolder in pushing for its end. That said, it will definitely become more expensive to continue it and politicians and agencies will face more criticism as they open hunting seasons on animals. There will come a time when a trend away from hunting will begin to gain momentum.

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    I come from a big hunting family..and I have grown to love the taste of venison. Now, I practice archery, but just as a sport. I know I could never go out and kill an animal. I have humanized them way too much. But, since the beginning man's existence, meat was essential for survival. We are carnivores..you know, with those little canine teeth and everything. True, today we have more options and of course living as a vegetarian is possible. I don't see a problem this, it's just how you choose to live. Most of us are fortunate enough to be able to have this choice, it's almost like a luxury. I live in Wisconsin though.. and their are no natural predators around to keep the deer population in control... so deer are running out in front of cars, causing accidents, eating crops like mad. I swear, I see a dead deer on the road almost every day now..poor things. So! I am glad for hunters.
    But OK! That's my 2 cents!..

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