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Thread: HUNTING: The Cruel Sport of Depravity

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    HUNTING: The Cruel Sport of Depravity



    What person can say hunting is a sport? It is a viscious game of murder where animals do not have much of a chance.

    There is no need for hunting for food anymore (except in some very remote regions of the world) and therefore it should cease to exist as an activity sanctioned by the government or even be permitted on private game reserves.

    Culling to control populations also is a ridiculous argument. But, I am more than happy to entertain that discussion with debate for those who think hunting is needed for that, or any other reason.


    "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
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    Not So Simple.

    Here in Maine, away from the bigger cities and towns, many people depend on hunting and fishing to eat. There are cases where over-population leads to disease and starvation, especially with deer. Some animals seem to thrive on controled hunting. Our moose population in Maine has increased in size and become more healthy since hunting season was opened on them several years ago. The hunting and fishing here in Maine helps pay for many wildlife programs and polution control programs and provides money to set aside land to be kept wild and open to the public.I will admit, I don't hunt anymore, but hunting does have some good points and would cause a lot of problems if done away with here.

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    You are right..hunting is not a sport, but a way of life!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    Here in Maine, away from the bigger cities and towns, many people depend on hunting and fishing to eat. ...

    Frank

    Frank, I doubt they depend on them to survive. I would suggest they hunt to supplement their food. Now, if they are so rural as to where there is no grocery store within driving distance, then maybe I would accept that, but I would be willing to bet that there is some kind of stores, albeit small ones, that are near enough to shop at.

    In the day before the automobile, then I could imagine that distances to grocery stores would not be feasible to cover. But, not now. If someone doesn`t want to get in their car and drive an hour or two once or twice a week to stock up, well, then, it is a question of being lazy, not of necessity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    ...

    1) There are cases where over-population leads to disease

    2)... and starvation, especially with deer. Some animals seem to thrive on controled hunting.

    Frank
    1) What disease is a result of overpopulation?

    2) Starvation is the result of the problems brought about by hunters who have destroyed the natural predators. Starvation in and of itself is not so bad for creating healthy numbers for what a land area can support. A population crash would allow for the species to come into balance with the fauna. Animals also have a self regulatory mechanism of fetal abortion and uterus absorption when food is not enough to support them in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    Some animals seem to thrive on controled hunting.

    Frank

    Well, I`m glad you saw fit to qualify it with "seem." With that, you can grudgingly cede that you don`t know for sure.

    Here is the logic you want us to swallow, "We are killing you for your own good."

    Now, does that sound right to you? To me it doesn`t. IF that were the best answer to handle overpopulation problems, then there are 6 billion of us crowding this planet that should be elgible for some action for "our own good."

    The more healthier route for the ecosystem would be for predators to be reintroduced. But, the hunters and farmers are opposed to that because they get the profits from exploitation. Less wolves, mountain lions, and coyotes killing deer means larger herds for hunting.

    The fact is, hunters like the overpopulation problem. They have manipulated the ecosystem just so that would happen so that then they can scream how necessary they are since the wolves are no longer around to do their job in the system. If they didn`t like the overpopulationn problem, and still didn`t want to reintroduce the wolf, then why not let the population crash to a sustainable number that cycles naturally every few years?

    Perhaps the wildlife agencies, hunting groups, NRA, and hunting paraphanalia retailors and all their lobbyists wouldn`t like it because it would mean large losses in revenue -- not so much that families in Maine going hungry.

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    I'm not a hunter, nor have I ever been out hunting, but i woud rather eat meat from a deer that's been shot in the woods than a cow that's been transported to a slawterhose and tormented befor it's killed.
    Sure there's a chanse that a hunter may not make a perfect hit everytime and the animal will have to suffer a bit befor dieing, but atleast it hade the chanse to live a free life up untill it's death.

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    Hunting can definitely be a part of wildlife management. I live in a forrest that is managed- most of the natural predators are gone, the natural range is limited, there are roads and houses up here, and garbage that these animals feed on- and definite cycles of limits and overpopulation.

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    What I Ment Was.....

    many people in northern Maine are very poor and don't have resources such as food banks or welfare to help them out. Many won't accept handouts. They would rather work for their food by hunting it. All you answers are fine in a book world, but will never hold water in the world of reality. "If this" & "if that" as quick & easy solutions usually don't happen in the real world; maybe they could "if" people were perfect and did the "right" thing. That rearely seems to happen in our imperfect world.

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    I don't really have problems with hunting or hunters- as long as they buy tags and follow the rules which most of them do. I don't want my house or dog being shot by mistake. Ideally I want them to eat what they kill and use as much as possible.

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    Also re introduction of predators would solve the population control problem, but create a host of others. Our forrest is high use, high traffic, semi-urban-- far too close to too many people for wolves or grizzlys. Even the black bears, big cats and coyotes who live up here have problems. We're tightly encircled by cities and the desert and such a program would present too significant a danger to attempt.

    I don't hunt, I'm just a bit too nearsighted for anything but paintball...but in this case our deer are one step from being domesticated. They are protected, counted, fostered and eventually culled when the human managers decide there are too many. It is one step away from ranching them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ullvarg
    1. I'm not a hunter, nor have I ever been out hunting, but i woud rather eat meat from a deer that's been shot in the woods than a cow that's been transported to a slawterhose and tormented befor it's killed.

    2. Sure there's a chanse that a hunter may not make a perfect hit everytime and the animal will have to suffer a bit befor dieing, but atleast it hade the chanse to live a free life up untill it's death.

    1. Both are unnecessary and therefore one should not feel it is an "either or" proposition one is face with. I would not like to have to entertain thoughts on my murder either through forced drowning or asphyxiation.

    2. And it could have lived longer had a hunter not put a shot in its gut allowing it to get away and die a slow painful death. It is wrong to assume that your use of the word "chance" somehow means that these animals that are injured and die slowly and or never recovered are a very small percentage of the total.

    Oh, and don`t forget, nearly 50 to 100 people are killed each year due to hunting accidents in the U.S alone -- not to mention the the other deaths that occur due to hunting paraphanalia that is left carelously around the house for kids to find or that which is used when someone is in a fit of rage at a spouse or decides to use for suicidal purposes.

    So, do we say, all those deaths which are from industry related products directly involved with hunting or of the deaths that occur while hunting are just lives sacrificed for the joy of hunting by a small part of the population? Why do you think those lives lost are justified so that a few can enjoy going into the woods and kill things that often they are too fat and out of shape to even chase after and recover after it has been wounded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Hunting can definitely be a part of wildlife management. I live in a forrest that is managed- most of the natural predators are gone

    Hunting need not be a part of wildlife management. It is not necessary. Birth control techniques can also be employed. There have been some successes in showing that salt licks can be laced with birth control chemicals to prevent ovulation.

    But, even if that were not feasible, natural population crashes regulate species quite well without hunting. Again, though, through that process the exploitative industries of state and private ventures will not gain to profit.

    That is one of the reasons why these businesses and agencies don`t really want to see an introduction of predators to do the job they want to keep on doing. I mean, if wolves controlled the deer, the hunters would have no reason to kill deer. Well, they would, but then they would have to admit their main reason is that they just enjoy killing things. But, that would unmask them. With the predators gone, they can smugly assert they are loving nature by helping nature by killing off parts of her. It is an absurd lie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    ...and garbage that these animals feed on- and definite cycles of limits and overpopulation.
    Oh, yes! Those hunters sure do know how to stalk and find those black bears to kill. Nothing more difficult than finding a garbage pit in the forest or near a small town and just sit behind a tree downwind from it and wait for an unsuspecting bear to come eat human waste material.

    Lots of skill involved in that, and it surely must be a site to see a beer coming for breakfast because it is hungry to only be met with some lead entering through parts of its body.

    I guess that is the mighty brave hunter, killing a garbage pit bear and then returning to his sofa to snap open a beer for a football game and some bragging rights to his buds. I don`t think they would like it much if when the Dominos pizza man rings the door bell and the delivery boy "bags" the man who answers the door. "Surprise, surprise, surprise, you unsuspecting man coming in search of your dinner."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    ...many people in northern Maine are very poor and don't have resources such as food banks or welfare to help them out. Many won't accept handouts. They would rather work for their food by hunting it.
    Well, if these people are living day to day as in the "old days" of survival, then they should think about joining the 21st century by marching out of their backwoods delapidated shacks and buses on cement blocks to the urban centers in search of a job.

    That's what people in Appellatia do -- they come down from the hills to Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, or Louisville.

    Again, I would really like to see some government report that shows us how many people whose survival depends on hunting. I am talking about their survival. I am not talking about a choice to remain somewhere and therefore they hunt to augment their food -- I am talking about a real need and necessity to hunt in order to live. Do you have something like that you can direct me to?

    I would guess if those people in the Western Nations exist, then they are an anomaly. However, I am not talking about anomalies, like them, or like people in the Amazon or the arctic circle. I am talking about the majority of hunters. They and their "sport of hobby and pleasure" are unneeded and should be phased out. They should be made extinct through laws and regulation.


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    Strongvoicesforward- everything you say is correct- Hunting need not be a part of wildlife management and we could ban hunting. We could employ birth control or let animals be culled by disease or starvation. (A joke about putting little deer condoms on came to mind...) And we could re introduce the natural predators. But there are a large number of people who do enjoy hunting- who like the guns, who take the risk, who don't have a bambi complex. The truth is that we don't live among a pristine wilderness- that some of these weekend killers seek a deeper connection with the land, with the past and with traditions. They hunt for sport, for fun, for the skill involved and for the meat. Most americans eat meat- we kill and eat animals daily- but we usually have someone else raise, kill and clean our food. We also enjoy guns and accept a few hundred casualties for some kind of manly primal drive. You are not going to take their guns away and you are not going to keep them from gunning down otherwise defenseless fauna on some bloody weekend outing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    All you answers are fine in a book world, but will never hold water in the world of reality. "If this" & "if that" as quick & easy solutions usually don't happen in the real world; maybe they could "if" people were perfect and did the "right" thing. That rearely seems to happen in our imperfect world.


    Frank, do you see the logic you are putting forth here? It is one of apathy and futilism. You seem to say that it is just too hard so not lets even try. However, you do admit that the answers are "fine." You think that just because people are not perfect then the answers that are fine or that should be found in a perfect world are therefore out of reach for us to attempt implementing.

    The same arguments against ending slavery were put forth:
    Free black people in a perfect world would be fine, but this world is not perfect therefore it can't happen.

    Now, does that sound right to you? Don`t be bogged down by the contents of the formula -- look at the logic of it -- the tracks on which the argument sits upon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    I don't really have problems with hunting or hunters-
    I have a problem with exploitation, causing fear, pain, misery, and death. I have a problem with frustrated hunters shooting up "no tresspassing signs," leaving litter in the forest, shooting pets, taking pot shots at livestock, using lands supported by taxes from the majority of the population who for the most part are not hunting supporters.

    ...as long as they buy tags and follow the rules which most of them do.
    I wouldn`t be so quick to pronounce most of them following the rules. That would require a familiarity with the majority of them which I suspect you do not enjoy.

    I don't want my house or dog being shot by mistake. Ideally I want them to eat what they kill and use as much as possible.
    And, I would suggest that during hunting seasons many dogs are killed by hunters. I am confidant that many rural town veterinarians report a large increase of gunshot injured animals during hunting season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Also re introduction of predators would solve the population control problem, but create a host of others. Our forrest is high use, high traffic, semi-urban-- far too close to too many people for wolves or grizzlys. Even the black bears, big cats and coyotes who live up here have problems. We're tightly encircled by cities and the desert and such a program would present too significant a danger to attempt.

    Yes, it would solve the problem and it makes no sense to live off the idea of accepting the dangers associated with hunting over those associated with predators nearby.

    The list of human deaths directly related to hunters and hunting and their paraphanalia far outstrips deaths of humans as a result of predator attacks.

    You could easily count 50 to 1000 deaths a year based on hunting and hunting paraphanalia. Go back a hundred years and do the math and see how many deaths that adds up to. Now, go back a hundred years and see how many deaths have been caused by coyotes or wolves. You may find one or two. For mountain lions you may find 5 to 10. For bears you may find 20. Now, what pales in relationship to each other?

    Wolves by nature are weary and for the most part flee at man's approach. Mountain lions by and large are the same. Coyotes, too. Bears, while after being habituated to garbage and gut piles may confront man, they, too for the most part will try to avoid encounters.

    Sure, reintroduction could possibly lead to some isolated incidences, but those by and large are much fewer than the kind emanating from a barrel.

    Barring reintroduction of predators, if safety is the concern, which you put forth, then hunting should be banned since they cause more deaths than predators and prey animals can control their own populations through crashes, abortions, and uteran absorption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    ... our deer are one step from being domesticated. They are protected, counted, fostered and eventually culled when the human managers decide there are too many. It is one step away from ranching them.
    Yes, it is. But, it need not be.
    Taking the value of life, empathy, and ethics into account, hunting need not be continued and could be banned.

    I think it will be a while, but voices calling for its end are becoming more numerous. It will not end overnight, but those against it are becoming stronger and are getting bolder in pushing for its end. That said, it will definitely become more expensive to continue it and politicians and agencies will face more criticism as they open hunting seasons on animals. There will come a time when a trend away from hunting will begin to gain momentum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    But there are a large number of people who do enjoy hunting- who like the guns, who take the risk, who don't have a bambi complex.
    Sabro, enjoyment is moote. It is not logical. A portion of the population enjoys dog fighting as well. That is a sport that ends in death, too. Bullfighting is another bloodsport.

    Blood sports are barbaric and do not rest on logic. Enjoyment is not a foundation to rest logic on.

    It is not about having a "bambi" complex. It is about not wanting to cause harm to a creature that has done you know harm and you not having any valid reason to cause that harm. Again, enjoyment is not a valid reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Strongvoicesforward- everything you say is correct- Hunting need not be a part of wildlife management and we could ban hunting. We could employ birth control or let animals be culled by disease or starvation. ... some of these weekend killers seek a deeper connection with the land, with the past and with traditions.
    Why should the "past" or "tradition" be a point to consider when it comes to committing unnecessary violence and causing pain? Many Africans get enjoyment knowing they are keeping their tradition of clitoral circumcision alive while they force it upon 12 year old girls. Many Pakistanis and Indians defend their traditions of honor killing for disobedient wives and children.

    "Connection" Ponnections! Traditions are no reason to keep and propell anything associated with exploitation, misery, and death. They all beget themselves and which ever species performs it on another or amongst themselves is irrelevant. An animal, be it human or nonhuman, wants to not be a target for unnecessary pain because of someone's warped sense of enjoyment or desire to protect some baseless tradition.

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    Like I said, hunting could be banned, but it won't. Not only do some find enjoyment in it, but it is part of their history and culture. It won't happen today or anytime soon. (You can make a reasonable case that we need not eat any meat- and it would lead to more sustainable agriculture, but I just had seafood gumbo and turkey for Christmas dinner...and I definitely would not be for it.)

    Hunters are up in the mountain all the time. We have not had a fatal accident in my memory- at least for the last few decades. They don't tend to shoot up people or domestic pets or our signage...and for the most part they clean up after themselves when they leave. I have concerns whenever high powered rifles are within hitting distance of my house. We have a significantly higher fatality rate with the traffic driving up and down the mountain, with the ski resorts, and even with hikers. And alcohol and guns don't mix either. So far, they have never ever bothered me. (There was a fire started at Manzanita flats from illegal ammunition a few years ago, but that person wasn't hunting.) They probably have less impact than the off highway vehicle crowd, mountain bikers, or other recreational users who do shoot up signs and leave trash.

    You miss the point with predators. Predators won't and can't live in large enough numbers in the forrest where I live. We have bears, coyotes, mountain lions, foxes and bobcats- none of which poses any kind of threat to human life, but also none of which can exist in sufficient numbers to control our deer population. There isn't the room- the range that the grizzlies and wolves require. Too many people, too many cars and too much of a threat to the animals.

    Lastly when you discuss "the value of life, empathy and ethics" I am almost certain you are ascribing human values- anthropomorphising these animals. The truth is that we don't value human life and animal life equally. We don't have the same empathy and sympathy, nor do we have the same respect for the life of a squirrel as for the life of any random human. We don't stop traffic and investigate the death of a squirrel or a coyote. We don't mourn the death of thousands of insects in our radiators. Nor do we intervene in the murder of millions of rats and other "vermin." Most people consider humans and animals to be of a differing and a lesser value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    They hunt for sport, for fun, for the skill involved and for the meat.
    Oh, I didn`t know there was fun in extinguishing life, not to mention causing it to suffer before hand -- or knowing that a fawn is left motherless to die from starvation because it can`t nurse anymore. Oh, yes, all that seems fun.

    Very few hunters stalk their kill. Most sit in a tree stand by a corn field or stream or some place they have put out salt licks for a few weeks to habituate an animal to coming there. Many cover themselves in deer musk and blow the mating calls of animals to lure them to them. Sure must be a lot of skill in getting those "love" calls down so that an animal interested in some companion ship can be surprised with a high velocity projectile instead. Imagine those animals' surprise at the skill of those ambushing hunters.

    Sure...lots of skill in all that. I would say Michael Jordon, or any kid shooting ball works on skill in developing a great hook shot while physically exhausted. Only an elite few can do that. An overweight guy, with battery warming socks, covered in deer piss bleeting a love call, too fat to climb down quickly enough from his stand to track an animal without getting winded after 100 yards, is errrr... well....errrr.... not very skillful.

    Or perhaps in the mind of the hunter he is. After all, when they do get their kills, they do get that great shot smiling shot of them holding the head up in a life standing position for a pose so that the rack can be seen in all its glory.

    Those photographers sure are skillful, aren`t they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    We also enjoy guns and accept a few hundred casualties for some kind of manly primal drive.
    Enjoyment is not valid for satisfying a primal drive when that is one which is inherantly dangerous and causes violence and helps support the paraphanalia of an industry whose products are often used to cause violence.

    You are not going to take their guns away and you are not going to keep them from gunning down otherwise defenseless fauna on some bloody weekend outing.
    You are right, Sabro, it will take a long time. It is a battle. But, I think it will happen gradually. The trend has always been from one of prevalent hunting to less hunting. Less regulation to more regulation. Less banning to more banning. Time is on our side, not the hunters.

    As more and more young people who have been quite receptive to animal rights move more and more into social positions of judges and legislators, you will see the hunting industry decided against and squeezed more and more and more.

    Even they see this. That is why they have desperately been trying to get more and more young people involved with hunting. But, while they do get some young people hooked on it, they are not getting the majority. And those young people who are indoctrinated into the hunting culture, are by and large, those young people who do not go on to college and take up decision making posts.

    It is just a matter of time before the hunter goes the way of the passenger pigion, which they themselves drove to extinction. A dieing breed indeed. The world will be better without them.

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