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Thread: United States of Europe

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    China took on a tremendous amount of fascism in their structure.
    Or you could call it national socialism.

    It has nothing to do with communism or communalism.
    Wait... China's economy has risen because they have become more fascist? That's how this reads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Wait... China's economy has risen because they have become more fascist? That's how this reads.
    Yes, capitalism and fascism are one of a kind.
    Exploiting people without mercy.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Yes, capitalism and fascism are one of a kind.
    Exploiting people without mercy.
    Okay, so you think that capitalism and fascism create a better economy, and that we should have left-wing government instead because, even though it creates a worse economy, it has other desirable effects. I disagree with your premise, but at least I think I get your point now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Okay, so you think that capitalism and fascism create a better economy, and that we should have left-wing government instead because, even though it creates a worse economy, it has other desirable effects. I disagree with your premise, but at least I think I get your point now.
    No, you twist my point into the wrong direction.

    A capitalist or fascist economy only benefits the people with power. At the cost of exploiting the working class. In China most people are poor, but a small minority is very rich. The same as the USA.

    Economy isn't a thing you can measure. Capitalism measures an economy by looking at the stock markets, but that is a bag of hot air. Time and time again.

    So a good economy is very complex.

    A good economy will need to be more self supporting

    World trade depends much too much on transport nowadays.
    It's ridiculous to buy cheap goods in China, and transport the stuff via airways that don't even pay tax over their fuel!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    No, you twist my point into the wrong direction.
    Sorry, I was trying to understand it. I understand it better now, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    A capitalist or fascist economy only benefits the people with power. At the cost of exploiting the working class. In China most people are poor, but a small minority is very rich. The same as the USA.
    Obviously, capitalism in particular reinforces existing wealth, and creates greater income disparities. But compared to systems that reinforce income equality at the expense of overall economic production, capitalism's creation of overall wealth tends to be more beneficial, due largely to charity. As an extreme example, Ethiopia has better income equality than the USA, but where would you rather be poor...? I'm not going to defend "pure capitalism" or say that the USA has the right balance, but the benefits of a good economy can be felt by more than the billionaires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Economy isn't a thing you can measure. Capitalism measures an economy by looking at the stock markets, but that is a bag of hot air. Time and time again.
    True... most measurements leave out important statistics, like long-term stability and potential for innovation, because those are contentious or difficult to measure in any meaningful sense. Employment and GDP can be good indicators, but relying on them too much can produce poor decisions. At the very least, public policy should probably be based less on long-term projections (which always seem to be wrong), and more on unified principles.

    Bringing this back on topic, I think that the EU will become more of a unified market-based economy over time, including more traditionally socialistic states... no imminent demise of capitalism there...

  6. #56
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    "You cannot run a monetary union with the likes of Mr Sócrates, or with finance ministers who spread rumours about a break-up. Europe’s political elites are afraid to tell a truth that economic historians have known forever: that a monetary union without a political union is simply not viable. This is not a debt crisis. This is a political crisis. The eurozone will soon face the choice between an unimaginable step forward to political union or an equally unimaginable step back. We know Mr Schäuble has contemplated, and rejected, the latter. We also know that he prefers the former. It is time to say so."
    read article


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    Edao, sorry, but that isn't true!

    I take Scotland as an example.

    Many years Scotland was independent. Until the Scots (like the Dutch) got confronted with the power of the English Navy.
    So they gave in to the English, to have a share in economic prosperity.
    And so the United Kingdom was born.

    What is this?
    Pure blackmail.
    From the English side.

    The EU is totally different.

    The Dutch people don't like the EU anymore.. Why?
    The Dutch government and companies are gaining a lot from the EU.
    The Dutch government has a policy to have a strong economy... And that's why..
    The people suffer because of the high prices, high taxes, and they have to work their butts off to get a living.

    So I think it's obvious to say.. Hey.. Go to hell, I am going to have a good day, and start living!

    The Greeks and other nations that know how to have a good life are a good example for the rest of Europe.

    Politics is costing Europe way too much money!

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    "You cannot run a monetary union with the likes of Mr Sócrates, or with finance ministers who spread rumours about a break-up. Europe’s political elites are afraid to tell a truth that economic historians have known forever: that a monetary union without a political union is simply not viable. This is not a debt crisis. This is a political crisis. The eurozone will soon face the choice between an unimaginable step forward to political union or an equally unimaginable step back. We know Mr Schäuble has contemplated, and rejected, the latter. We also know that he prefers the former. It is time to say so."
    read article

    Well yeah, I totally agree! The only problem is, IMO, from what I've heard and read from people throughout Europe, from every single country, they simply don't want it!
    Of course no one in the world wants his nation to be dominated by a higher force, whether it is the EU, the USA or any other country or organization in the world (YES, many Americans even fear the UN). It is a very natural emotion to preserve one own's independence and personal security, everything else only provides mistrust and fear of powerlessness. Also disgrace plays a role, even though most people don't want to admit it.

    Now we are in the critical decision of either being dominated by a unity of European countries, but with the guarantee of preserving the independence of this region as a whole, or returning back to relatively powerless nation states, soon overrun by Asian economy and politics and as toys between the real world powers (USA, Russia, China perhaps also India). And yes, in this situation we'll be the lucky ones if USA will defend us against other agressors! I have become a pessimist the last few years and doubt that most Europeans have the ability to understand this and look far enough ahead.

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    Too many wannabe American British on this forum and in general, IMO I'm all for a United Europe.

  10. #60
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    It's inevitable, that eventually the European Union will integrate further, and become it's own nation. However, do I believe it will happen in the near future?

    No.

    I believe maybe in 10-20 years, it will happen though.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Englishman View Post
    Too many wannabe American British on this forum and in general, IMO I'm all for a United Europe.
    Don't you even dare insult us wannabe Brits! I have English ancestry, and if I wish to be a wannabe British person, I may!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Englishman View Post
    Too many wannabe American British on this forum and in general, IMO I'm all for a United Europe.
    United Europe is the best option. A lot of different options competing with each other (small countries with different interests, sometimes one country against another country) only reduces the competitiveness and strength of Europe global. Ex Yugoslavia is good example and had many advantages over the current small states, which are small economies, small markets, with a large bureaucratic apparatus, non-competitive, uninteresting for investors, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    "You cannot run a monetary union with the likes of Mr Sócrates, or with finance ministers who spread rumours about a break-up. Europe’s political elites are afraid to tell a truth that economic historians have known forever: that a monetary union without a political union is simply not viable. This is not a debt crisis. This is a political crisis. The eurozone will soon face the choice between an unimaginable step forward to political union or an equally unimaginable step back. We know Mr Schäuble has contemplated, and rejected, the latter. We also know that he prefers the former. It is time to say so."
    read article

    Even if I'm late, 100% agree. You just wrote 2 years ago what I wanted to say now. This EU is a disaster, but this doesn't mean that it should be the end of the European political project, because now the EU lacks of politics. Governments want to follow euro-sceptic feelings to get some votes, destroying a great inheritance. Make European citizens and then make Europe.

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    This is great idea. But before that there are some more countries like Turkey, Serbia, Israel, Georgia, Azerbaijan that should join to the EU otherwise the mentioned United States of Europe will lack power. With its well established organizations and powerpul ecomomy today EU is candidate to be rival for the US, Japan and China but there are some more futher steps before reaching to that point.


    http://irglobal.blogspot.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by intorg View Post
    This is great idea. But before that there are some more countries like Turkey, Serbia, Israel, Georgia, Azerbaijan that should join to the EU otherwise the mentioned United States of Europe will lack power. With its well established organizations and powerpul ecomomy today EU is candidate to be rival for the US, Japan and China but there are some more futher steps before reaching to that point.


    http://irglobal.blogspot.com/
    Yes, that makes lot of sense to flood Europe with Asian immigrants.
    Do you want to start a world war or something?

  16. #66
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    A political union is the only step forward, if Europe is to count on world level. We see the US dollar going down the drain, due to its' economic and social policy, and if you don't want the yuan as the next world currency, Europe should reinforce it's common currency, level its' fiscal policy, introduce a common language and so on.

    But for that, the europeans should put aside their national narrow viewpoints and see the advantages of it. Instead of that, we see more and more segregation movements and tendencies, wrong steps in dealing with crises, and critics all around.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florin C View Post
    . We see the US dollar going down the drain, due to its' economic and social policy,
    You said it half a century too soon. US economy is still the strongest in the world and dollar is going up, despite of new few trillion dollars in circulation since the recession.

    Here is nice visualization how vital fiscal union is for Euro.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You said it half a century too soon. US economy is still the strongest in the world and dollar is going up, despite of new few trillion dollars in circulation since the recession.

    Here is nice visualization how vital fiscal union is for Euro.
    .
    US economy is lacking infrastructure to sustain it and when I say infrastructure I am referring to the US lame electrical current transportation network and to the lame US railways.
    I do not think US economy is strongest in the world,the human capital is not well preserved,people are usually put to work too much and given too few vacation which makes them less creative and less efficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Florin C View Post
    A political union is the only step forward, if Europe is to count on world level. We see the US dollar going down the drain, due to its' economic and social policy, and if you don't want the yuan as the next world currency, Europe should reinforce it's common currency, level its' fiscal policy, introduce a common language and so on.

    But for that, the europeans should put aside their national narrow viewpoints and see the advantages of it. Instead of that, we see more and more segregation movements and tendencies, wrong steps in dealing with crises, and critics all around.
    EU started as a coaltion for coal and steel, then became a community, then a union,

    but Fiscal union puts a bomb in a basic arguement from the times of coaltiton,
    the self command and autonomy of each state,
    and a second is cases like LuxLeaks, taxation of BIG CORPORATIONS, which can gather rich in certain areas,

    Europe is facing the 'ghost' of a possibly future creation.

    the difference among Old and new world is that in Europe we are Europeans cause we are Deutsch Italians Polish Portoguese,
    in USA except Dixiland (South) they are all primary USAers and then Californians or NYers etc

    and that is a big problem, cause, for example, a Dutch policy for a subject lets say enviroment, can be hazzardous for an Austrian, or the policy of Italy for immigrations can hazzard Poland (I repeat as an example)

    a Good example is the Cypriot sea and gass and oil deposits,
    EU has not a policy, leaving Cyprus to make a stronger alliance with Israel and Egypt which are away from EU, and did not protect Cyprus inclusive zone from Turkey's searches,
    in USA something like that would be an act of war. for example china to search the Alaska exclusive interest zone.

    EU is about to collapse, or to overpass, her self, this decade is critical,
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    I would sooner poke my own eye balls out with a red hot poker than have the UK join a united States of Europe.The mere thought makes me cringe,as for that idiot Verhofstadt I just want Nigel Farage to lose it one day n just snap his neck.Britain benefits in NO way shape or form by being in the EU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    The EU is already an international power that does so. It is currently the world's largest economy.
    No 2 countries within the farse called the EU have large economies ,every other country is broke and we're paying for them .Get us out roll on 20q7 or maybe before

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth van Kampen View Post
    Good morning Maciamo,

    That is a very good article from Guy Verhofstadt! Slowly but surely we have to become a United States of Europe.

    Speeking for myself, I feel very European. Maybe because I come from such a small country?!
    But there is only one thing that trouble me a little. The language will be English, in the future you will get a sort of European English.
    I sincerely hope that French and German will stay, but I am also for Italian and Spanish. I guess that learning Spanish at school will become a must because of the countries in South America, but also in the USA 50% of the people speak Spanish. For us in Europe it would be sad if Frech and German will become lost languages.
    Don't you agree?
    No could not careless seems ironic really .You all will speak English and we won't be in the EU soon hahaha

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