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Thread: United States of Europe

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Post United States of Europe

    Belgian PM Guy Verhofstadt recently has published a book called "The United States of Europe", in which he explains how the some EU-member states could go ahead to form a federal European state, while other members state could join later. This principle of two-speed Europe is not new, but the fact that it receives such a strong support from an EU founding country's head of state shows that it is not just empty talks.

    Watch the TV interview of Guy Verhofstadt on Euronews (note that you can get the video and transcripts in 7 languages).
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    That is an interesting idea... It would probably create a international power that could rival The US or Japan.
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    Southern Sun Duo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3jake
    That is an interesting idea... It would probably create a international power that could rival The US or Japan.
    The EU is already an international power that does so. It is currently the world's largest economy.

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    Pyro-GL Pilot d3jake's Avatar
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    Sorry, my mistake.

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    Good morning Maciamo,

    That is a very good article from Guy Verhofstadt! Slowly but surely we have to become a United States of Europe.

    Speeking for myself, I feel very European. Maybe because I come from such a small country?!
    But there is only one thing that trouble me a little. The language will be English, in the future you will get a sort of European English.
    I sincerely hope that French and German will stay, but I am also for Italian and Spanish. I guess that learning Spanish at school will become a must because of the countries in South America, but also in the USA 50% of the people speak Spanish. For us in Europe it would be sad if Frech and German will become lost languages.
    Don't you agree?

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    Why should the language be english?
    I absolutly donエt agree there are much more people in the EU who speak german or a dialekt like dutch ,which is closely realtrd to german.
    Or why not french I personally donエt like the language very much but still I think Germany and France play a much bigger role in the history of europe than any anglican country.
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    Southern Sun Duo's Avatar
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    Well english would be a logical choice because it is the international language and is probaply know the most around europe by the different nations. If you look at it proportionally, excluding england and germany, in the other european nations more people are familiar with english rather than german or french

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    Wow, moffeltoff,
    Dutch and Flemish are Germanic languages, but not dialects from Germany.

    We are all Americanized here in Europe, one country more than the other okay, but when I watch the German TV or the French TV I often see synchronized American films.

    We will be better off with a United States of Europe, than we don't have to copy the USA but we can become once more an important continent that has much to offer, united in all its differences.
    The world gets smaller (figurative) Europe needs that feeling "One of us" in this world of today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moffeltoff
    Why should the language be english?
    I absolutly donエt agree there are much more people in the EU who speak german or a dialekt like dutch ,which is closely realtrd to german.
    Or why not french I personally donエt like the language very much but still I think Germany and France play a much bigger role in the history of europe than any anglican country.
    I for one would never sit down and re-educate myself to learn a language that is used to a pathetic degree on a global scale compared to English, just because some european brats are too high and mighty to admit their language is not as global as they think.
    Last edited by Duo; 24-02-06 at 18:14. Reason: insulting language being used
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedMac
    I for one would never sit down and re-educate myself to learn a language that is used to a pathetic degree on a global scale compared to English, just because some european brats are too high and mighty to admit their language is not as global as they think.
    Somehow agree. When you have to go to an internationnal meeting, own company related or not, it's so much easier to synchronize and make contacts in english that there is no reason to try something else (except perhaps everything in binary code? ). The fact: English -is- the Western (global term) World language. Want another prove? What are we actually speaking here?
    Last edited by Duo; 24-02-06 at 18:15. Reason: removing the insulting part of the prior post

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedMac
    I for one would never sit down and re-educate myself to learn a language that is used to a pathetic degree on a global scale compared to English, just because some european brats are too high and mighty to admit their language is not as global as they think.
    If you learn languages only for its practical value, then you should be satisfied with English. However, there are many other reasons to learn a language. I found myself to learn best when I really loved the language. "Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius", as W.A. Mozart would say... In other words, you motivation can come from necessity as well as from attraction.

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    I wonder whether this will work. I mean there are too many countries, cultures, languages, difference of opinions, tensions, likes, dislikes etc. in the European Union. For example France will always differ from the UK...etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    If you learn languages only for its practical value, then you should be satisfied with English. However, there are many other reasons to learn a language. I found myself to learn best when I really loved the language. "Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius", as W.A. Mozart would say... In other words, you motivation can come from necessity as well as from attraction.
    agreed, but to expect everyone to love German or French just because someone does themself is pretty blatantly ignorant.

    I know a good deal of German, but to be honest I hate the language... French not so much, it has a nice ring to it.

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedMac
    agreed, but to expect everyone to love German or French just because someone does themself is pretty blatantly ignorant.
    You can't expect people to love something/someone. However, the more things you love, and the more you will learn and enjoy your life.

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    heh united states of europe, its too cute!

    Seriously, we cant even agree on a united language, how many single nations have so many different languages in it?....i mean thats just stupid, each country is so different that a united states of europe would look too stupid to take seriously.

    The french and germans will never give up their languages, so the USE is dead before its even so much as a twinkle in EU un-accountable beaurocrats eyes.

    Seriously its a nice fantasy, this united europe crap, but europe is a diverse continent, its never going to happen, its as silly as expecting all the countries of asia to unite just because they share the same continent,the fact is an indian is in no position to govern a chinese, just as much as an italian is in no position to understand the needs and wants of a dane.

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    heh united states of europe, its too cute!
    Seriously, we cant even agree on a united language, how many single nations have so many different languages in it?....
    It's so cute that you' think that a government needs a common language to work properly. So naive ! Just look at Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, India, China... All these have several official languages and work just fine. There has never been any talk of imposing Swiss German to all Swiss citizens, nor Dutch to all Belgians. It's justly people like you who are responsible for cultural oppression in the UK. How comes that out of 6 official languages (now), 2 are extinct (Cornish and Manx Gaelic), one is nearly extinct (Scottish Gaelic), one was banned at school until recently (Welsh Gaelic), which only leaves English and Scots. Even Irish Gaelic is not official in Northern Ireland. The language almost disappeared from Ireland because of English-speaking Brits banning it from school from the 18th century onwards, for the sake of a "common language". Go and visit the EU Parliament in Brussels. You will see it indicated in all 20 EU official languages, and you will be able to get almost instantaneous translations in each of them from the headphones available to visitors. This is what I call a real effort to promote linguistic and cultural diversity. Maybe the British government should start learning from the EU and give Gaelic and Scots translations of Parliament discussions to the audience.

    The french and germans will never give up their languages, so the USE is dead before its even so much as a twinkle in EU un-accountable beaurocrats eyes.
    Too bad you think like that. I pity people government by people thinking like you. This is the basis of totalitarian repression. That is everything the EU is fighting agaisnt ! Maybe that's why so many Brits dislike the EU. They just wish that everybody would speak English, as they don't have the brains to learn other languages, nor the tolerance and respect for people who think differently !

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    Banned nurizeko's Avatar
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    I dont wish everyone will speak english, i just recognise a unassailable fact, Different languages are the first of many indicators of cultural difference, and scots gealic is dying out because its impractical, not because i have a vandetta against it.
    (if you think otherwise watch gealic language TV on british channel 2, theres so many english words in it its funny).

    If i remember correctly canada doesnt get along, quebec folk want independence, at least a large preportion of them.

    China suceeds because the ethnic minorities are supressed, its a bit easier to "get along" when one dominant group and their language holds a gun to the heads of the minorities if they so much as ask for independence.

    Cute, accusing me of cultural opression, i guess you must assume i go around blowing up mosques and hindu temples and beating up anyone not speaking english.....seriously, whos the real totalitarian here?.

    Im standing up for my believe in the sovreignty of distinct seperate nations, your the one looking down on anyone who doesnt agree with your fantasy of a united europe, you appear to be the one that needs to demonise me and people who feel like me when we dont want your world view imposed on us.

    Scots isnt a language its a dialect, evident by the fact most of it is actually understandable to me, an english speaker.

    Too bad you think like that. I pity people government by people thinking like you. This is the basis of totalitarian repression. That is everything the EU is fighting agaisnt ! Maybe that's why so many Brits dislike the EU. They just wish that everybody would speak English, as they don't have the brains to learn other languages, nor the tolerance and respect for people who think differently !
    Governed^

    No, Looking down upon the independent minded in favour of a larger regime against their will is the basis of totalitarian opression, its the same principle behind ethnic minorities being opressed by a larger neighbour, just as you and other pro-EU's look down and spit upon those of us who are quite happy to remain independent and loyal to our country.
    I dont wish everybody speaks english, i never said that so, thats your flawed assumption im afraid.
    I am learning Japanese, again your position is your own flawed creation, most likely feuled by the pumpmed ego and sense of superiority and rightousness caused by the beleif your EU is the awsner to all ills.
    As for tolerance, well, funny, one of us is arguing for the freedom and sovreignty of other peoples cultures and way of life as much as my own, one of us is arguing that a democratically un-accountable and barely functioning beaurocracy with too much paper-work and not enough of what really matters, has no right or ability to decide the fate and future of a people on the other side on the continent, with a different language, culture, taboos and principles and ideals.
    One of us is saying a united states of europe is a fantasy, and that human nature will either turn it into a totalitarian opressor you preach to oppose, or crumble under its own inability to function competently and provide a semblence of a thriving and universally acceptable regime.

    The one size fits all federal approach works for the united states because all the states are in no sense considored culturally and nationally seperate from the centre, An american from one side of the country is (apart from maybe skin) probably little different from one from the other, in europe, a different country is a different country.

    You mistake a shared religion and continent as basis for forcing europe into one nation. It isnt.
    And the only way it will ever acheive this is by force, and we all know how forceful conquest of europe ends up.

    Human nature dictates Loyalty to nation and culture is fact, human nature dictates a fantasy where all of europe suddenly falls in line, all cultural difference vanishes, all language barriers are broken down, where all europeans despite their country of origin suddenly forget their nationality for the fake artificially imposed idea of european nationality, where everyone suddenly drops their live and ambitions and desires, to fall in line for the greater good of this new and alien idea of USE, is fiction.

    Your right though that British folk are different from the rest of europe, a fine example of why a USE wont work, were part of the EU and already you, a self proclaimed european citizen appear to hold a contept for what essentially will be a fellow countryman in a perfect USE future.

    So what would happen if the USE was founded? would your non-existant forces invade france for resisting?, would britain become a pariah, maybe you would like to blitz london again?....Maybe you would like world war 3 where the USE forces (if they actually manage to exist and establish themselves) wage war against the unbeliever remainder of europe who dont join originally?.

    Federalism is just as dangerous and contemptuous as any dictatorial empire, at least when it has designs over an entire continent of diverse independent and sovreign cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    scots gealic is dying out because its impractical,
    Impractical? Why? Because the official language is English, perhaps?

    (if you think otherwise watch gealic language TV on british channel 2, theres so many english words in it its funny).
    Watch English language TV, there are so many French & Latin words in it, it's funny.

    Scots isnt a language its a dialect, evident by the fact most of it is actually understandable to me, an english speaker.
    Standard English is a dialect, too.

    As for tolerance, well, funny, one of us is arguing for the freedom and sovreignty of other peoples cultures and way of life as much as my own,
    You're arguing in favour of freedom & sovereignty of Scotland & Wales, too?

    in europe, a different country is a different country.
    Nope. Eg. the Germans living near the Dutch border have more in common (eg. the dialect they speak) with each other than with Bavarians.

    Human nature dictates Loyalty to nation and culture is fact
    Nope, nations haven't even existed for very long yet, just a few hundred years. Can't be human nature, then.

    europeans despite their country of origin suddenly forget their nationality for the fake artificially imposed idea of european nationality
    All nationalities are artificially imposed ideas.

    Federalism is just as dangerous and contemptuous as any dictatorial empire, at least when it has designs over an entire continent of diverse independent and sovreign cultures.
    How would you define an independent & sovereign culture?

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    The fact your german and im british for a start.

    Bossel, honestly, im saddened, you havnt made a serious attempt at all, just omni-slashing empty drivel.

    I know your better then that, try harder.

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    Hi NURIZEKO,
    I lived and worked 9 years in Switzerland, a country with 4 languages, and yet there was no language problem. I lived in Lausanne, in the French speaking part. Most of the young Swiss speak English as well.
    But I must say that only the German speaking cantons,could often speak French, Italian and English. The Italian part of Switserland could often speak French and English. But in the French cantons most of the Swiss spoke French only, but luckily today they also speak English.

    European language? I guess English is by far the most practical.
    But I honestly hope that most young Europeans will keep on studiying, French, German and maybe Spanish and Italian, they are all four such beautiful languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    The fact your german and im british for a start.
    Yep, quite an artificial distinction.

    Bossel, honestly, im saddened, you havnt made a serious attempt at all, just omni-slashing empty drivel.
    Yep, you got the point: The response showed that your own points can be used just as well against you.

    I know your better then that, try harder.
    Nope, nationalism is not worth the effort.

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    In the competitive world that we leave in, a EU is unavoidable.
    From the past we have learned that strength is achieved through unity, from few people in caves, to villages, from city to nations.
    Any European country that doesn't join the EU is destined to be economically squashed by today economic powers.
    Although i must say that if the decision was up to me i would leave Britain out of the EU, i am really sick about their snobbish arrogant attitude towards Europe.
    I would have Britain join the USA (officially), there shouldn't be any objection there, the language is the same, and Britain seems already quite happy to do all that George Bush ask them to do.
    And for the fact that maybe the country could survive on its own, forget it colonial times are finished, Britain needs economical allies, and every “true British nationalist” should understand this unless of course it is a Friday after 5pm
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    変な外人 Thor's Avatar
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    I'm glad that Europe put together the European Union. Everybody needs to join it. They already created the national currency. It's like a new country is being born. I guess that's why I'm so interested in Europe at the moment?

    Mmm, I don't think the EU needs one official language. I studied german in school last year(failed it due to the fact that I was lazy). I loved the language though. It's very interesting, and once I get some money I will probably take courses of German at a community college. That'll be lots of fun. Then I can start french after that, and if I do well with those two then I can take swedish too. Europe is an amazing place.

    I hope this wasn't too much of a rant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor
    Mmm, I don't think the EU needs one official language.
    Well, it does have the need. All those translation services needed at the moment are just a waste of money. They should agree on English as working language, which would simplify translation business significantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth van Kampen
    Dutch and Flemish are Germanic languages, but not dialects from Germany.
    Quote Originally Posted by moffeltoff
    I absolutly donエt agree there are much more people in the EU who speak german or a dialekt like dutch ,which is closely realtrd to german.
    Actually, Dutch, Flemish & German are all German dialects, or to be more precise: part of the continental West Germanic dialect continuum. The differentiation is only gradually from the North Sea coast to South Tyrol.

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    変な外人 Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    Well, it does have the need. All those translation services needed at the moment are just a waste of money. They should agree on English as working language, which would simplify translation business significantly.
    Actually, Dutch, Flemish & German are all German dialects, or to be more precise: part of the continental West Germanic dialect continuum. The differentiation is only gradually from the North Sea coast to South Tyrol.
    Oversimplifying things can be a bad thing sometimes. Everything is dumbed down in the US. It's nice for some things to not be simple.

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