Should Turkey Join The EU?

[Silverbackman]

In my opinion it shouldn't. In fact I think it should give up some of its European, such as Istanbul and the lands West of it. Most of its land is in the Middle East and it would be better if they were to join the Middle Eastern or West Asian Union if such a union takes place. I don't even think it should be a candidate.

What do you think?

[bossel]

This topic has already been covered here:

EU agree to start entry talks for Turkey

Islamic Europe?

Not yet a poll, though.

[Duo]

I voted yes. If one has been to turkey they will realize that it has the attributes of South Eastern/Balkan European country. Turkey is interconected with Europe, especially greece, the gene and cultural exchange they have haid is un parralleled in Europe. So when people say that turks are not european think again. I agree there are some issues with the lands on the east, ie kurdistan, in fact many times i joke with my turkish friends about lettin those areas go so the country is more stable, but I think the issues there can be resolved with the european integration process. Turkey is btw the only secular muslim country of its size. I don't see why Islam should come inundate europe from citizens raised in a secular society.

[Maciamo]

The only arguments I see against Turkey's accession would be pretty much the same as for other countries in the region like Bulgaria, Romania, ex-Yugoslavia or Albania, i.e. mostly economical, with maybe a need to adapt laws to EU standards. Actually, Turkey also has some small human right issues, but not as bad as Bosnia or Serbia, and if we really want to be nitpicky, we could say that Britain, France or other countries are not 100% clean either.

[nurizeko]

I voted no, if turkey can join the EU with its little sliver of land on europe, then spain should get to join the organization for african unity or whats it called because it has the canary islands and a few enclaves on the morroccan coast.

Its got nothing to do with islam bashing or turkey bashing, i dont care, its the fact turkey isnt in europe with botheres me, why is the EU ignoring this completely un-assailable fact?.

[road-finder]

I think that Turkey is rather Asia, not Europe...

[ukbulldog]

I beleive other countries in the EU or in a larger scale the world should have effect on if a country should or should'nt join the EU and should be 100% for the public to decide. I know this wouldnt happen but i wish it happened for the UK as since England joined the EU as we are no longer ruled by our selfs but instead by the laws that the European union have set. Back on subject, One thing is for sure, if Turkey joins the EU then it can no longer be called the EU or European Union. What next? WU or World Union? World power and world domination? Exactly what is the plan of these unelected officials who are running the EU?

[Maciamo]

The more I learn about the history and population genetics of Turkey, the more I see how closely Turks are related to Greeks or other South-East Europeans. It can be argued that Western Turks are closer to the European average than people from northern Greece, Albania, Kosovo and even Serbia.

Economically Turkey is more advanced than most of the Balkans, even Romania and Bulgaria, which are already in the EU.

If religion is the only strong argument against the Turkish accession, let's not forget that most of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Central Albania are also predominantly Muslim.

[Mycernius]

Cyprus is a member and that is off the coast of the Asian continent, noy Europe, so why not Turkey? At least some of Turkey is in Europe. Then there are all the overseas territories of the UK, France, Demark, The Netherlands, Spain and Portugal that have a special status because of links to member countries.

[Marianne]

The more I learn about the history and population genetics of Turkey, the more I see how closely Turks are related to Greeks or other South-East Europeans. It can be argued that Western Turks are closer to the European average than people from northern Greece, Albania, Kosovo and even Serbia.

I guess that Western Turks are close to European average because all the western territories of Turkey, those close to the Aegean Sea were Greek territories during Byzantine empire and people living there at the moment are probably Greek decedents. If u take a look at Turkish people living in the mainland u will see obvious appearance differences.

As for whether Turkey should join the European Union, I dont have any problem as long as they solve some issues they have concerning human rights and women's rights. The problem is not only about their legislation but also about people's way of thinking on how to treat to a woman for example. Even if the laws change, people's minds wont and i think religion has a huge influence on that. I dont want to walk on the street or work at a company and being treated as inferior because im a woman, by people who grew up believing that women have less rights than men...

[Miss Marple's nephew]

Should Turkey Join The EU?
In my opinion it shouldn't. ..... Most of its land is in the Middle East and it would be better if they were to join the Middle Eastern or West Asian Union if such a union takes place.

I understand very little about politics, though I probably know more about it than the average person who claims that he does.

I do know a fair bit about geography, however, and I don't feel that Turkey's geographical position ought to play much part in its' entry into the EU. If geography were all that important then several of the N.A.T.O. members wouldn't have been admitted, not being anywhere the North Atlantic, and Israel wouldn't be allowed to send its' representation to the European Song Contest.

But as I said, I know little about political issures and I think Turkey should be allowed membership simply because I like the Turks. :)

[coze]

I guess that Western Turks are close to European average because all the western territories of Turkey, those close to the Aegean Sea were Greek territories during Byzantine empire and people living there at the moment are probably Greek decedents. If u take a look at Turkish people living in the mainland u will see obvious appearance differences.

I would say it's little bit racist assumption to make. Though the cultural and political differences between coastline and mainland Turkish people kind of verifies this assumption. Just have a look at this map of the 2009 local elections in Turkey ...

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2009turkeyelections.jpg

aside from istanbul (which has been flooded by migrants from the mainland) most coastlines have been taken by the opposition

[Maciamo]

I would say it's little bit racist assumption to make. Though the cultural and political differences between coastline and mainland Turkish people kind of verifies this assumption. Just have a look at this map of the 2009 local elections in Turkey ...

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2009turkeyelections.jpg

aside from istanbul (which has been flooded by migrants from the mainland) most coastlines have been taken by the opposition

I don't see how it is racist to state the fact that many Western Turks are closely related to Greeks. I don't see what politics has to do with this either.

[coze]

I dunno. The way I read her statement she says like you can look at the faces of two Turkish people from mainland and the coast and you can tell they're different - and Turkish person from the coastline is Greek descendent. It's straighforward and not exactly true. Turkey is a very mixed country, there're people descendants of balcan countries, slavic people, caucasian people (I mean georgians, azeris) arabs, albanians, persians ... Even celtic people if you go back far enough in history. You just can't cut it out saying they're Greek descendants. Besides it can always be argued Greek people of today are descendants of Ottomans. Turkey and Greece was together for centuries so I think it can't be said who descended from who. Not that it's very important anyway, I prefer to call us Aegean people.

[Maciamo]

I dunno. The way I read her statement she says like you can look at the faces of two Turkish people from mainland and the coast and you can tell they're different - and Turkish person from the coastline is Greek descendent. It's straighforward and not exactly true. Turkey is a very mixed country, there're people descendants of balcan countries, slavic people, caucasian people (I mean georgians, azeris) arabs, albanians, persians ... Even celtic people if you go back far enough in history. You just can't cut it out saying they're Greek descendants. Besides it can always be argued Greek people of today are descendants of Ottomans. Turkey and Greece was together for centuries so I think it can't be said who descended from who. Not that it's very important anyway, I prefer to call us Aegean people.

I suppose that she meant similar to "modern Greek", so also a mixture of Balkanic, Slavic, Caucasian, Celtic and Near Eastern people. The admixture is quite clear from the Y-DNA haplogroup composition. Turkey has more diversity overall, but the country is bigger, and to be fair most of the Asian haplogroups (H, L, N, O, Q) are found in Eastern Turkey, not on the Aegean coast.

What is interesting is that Greece also has different admixture in each region. The Peloponese and Crete have a lot of J2 and R1b, like Northern and Central Turkey, while the mountainous region of North-West Greece has a high percentage of haplogroups E and G, more like southern Anatolia.

[Marianne]

I suppose that she meant similar to "modern Greek", so also a mixture of Balkanic, Slavic, Caucasian, Celtic and Near Eastern people. The admixture is quite clear from the . Turkey has more diversity overall, but the country is bigger, and to be fair most of the Asian haplogroups (H, L, N, O, Q) are found in Eastern Turkey, not on the Aegean coast.

What is interesting is that Greece also has different admixture in each region. The Peloponese and Crete have a lot of J2 and R1b, like Northern and Central Turkey, while the mountainous region of North-West Greece has a high percentage of haplogroups E and G, more like southern Anatolia.

that's exactly how i meant it.
Greece, located between Europe, Asia and Africa, has always been a place where many tribes settled since ancient years and modern Greeks are now a mixture of all those. This also applies for the western part of Turkey and if u consider the fact that up to 1922 modern Greeks were living at the territories of Turkey close to the Aegean sea (for example Smyrni), i don't see why it is racist to say that people living in those territories have similar haplotypes as opposed to the Turks living in the mainland :P


To be honest though, i don't think that there were mixtures between Turks and Greeks during the Ottoman empire due to the major religious differences. Of course it is possible that occasional "incidents" might have occurred but that definitely wasn't the rule so i don't think that Greeks' and Turks' genes have changed since Greece was conquered by the Ottomans during the middle ages. I believe that more people might get married and have kids nowadays that religious differences are outdated than 300 years ago when Greeks and Turks had this hate going between them...
For example I wouldn't have a problem getting married to a Turkish guy but I'm pretty sure my great grand parents wouldn't even consider it.

[Minty]

Cyprus is a member and that is off the coast of the Asian continent, noy Europe, so why not Turkey? At least some of Turkey is in Europe. Then there are all the overseas territories of the UK, France, Demark, The Netherlands, Spain and Portugal that have a special status because of links to member countries.

As far as I know only the Greek part of Cyprus is part of the EU, and it is not part of the schengen area. We have a lot of students here from there; they have no rights to work here. However a lot of them do and they get paid by cash (underground money) same for those Eastern European countries’ people outside of the European Union or those Mainland Chinese or those Turkish students.


Only a small part of Turkey is on the European continent the rest are in Asia, but to ease Muslim tensions I got this feeling at some point they probably will be offered the deal.

[Maciamo]

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the fact that Turkey is geographically in Asia. After all, the ancestors of Europeans have come from Anatolia at one period of history or another. The first were the Palaeolithic haplogroup I, but it was followed more recently by the Neolithic E, T, G and J, then by the huge wave of Indo-European R1b from northern Anatolia.

All the European haplogroups can be found in Turkey. What makes Turkey less European is that it also has a sizeable percentage (over 20%) of non-European haplogroups, such as the Arabic J1 (about 12.5%), South Asian L and P, African A and ExE1b1b, and North/East Asian C, Q and O.

The main issues about Turkey joining the EU are :

- Turkey is Muslim (on the other hand the state is not religious, so it's not so bad)

- the status of Kurdistan, which I think should be made an autonomous region (like the Basque country) or semi-independent state (like Scotland).

- the human right record (although it isn't perfect in EU member states either)

- the strong disparity between east and west in terms of education and economic development

I personally wouldn't have a problem with the North-Western half of Turkey joining the EU. But it is not practically feasible.

[Chris]

The EU is too large to be sustainable as it is, with the obvious economic and social imbalances, let alone the lack of accountability to the voters. It's hard enough making the politicians in one's own country accountable (virtually impossible in the UK); even less so an EU politician.

To me, a 'European Union' is counter-intuitive. An economic trading entity, sure. No more than that, and certainly no bigger.

[Maciamo]

The EU is too large to be sustainable as it is, with the obvious economic and social imbalances, let alone the lack of accountability to the voters.

The USA is over twice bigger than the EU, geographically. The gap between the rich and the poor is actually higher in the US than between say a poor Romanian and a rich northern European. The US has many times more billionaires than the EU, and many times more people living in precarious conditions, without health insurance, in trailer parks. Yet few people would argue that the USA are too big and should be split.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

In my opinion Turkey is not European, culturally, geographically and, to a significant extent, ethnically. I also believe that Cyprus should not have been given membership. I understand there are political issues involved for both countries but I just can't see either as part of the E. U. For me Europe ends where Greece's borders end.

[Marianne]

For me Europe ends where Greece's borders end.

We grew up knowing that the southeast borders of Europe are where Greece's borders with Turkey are and with all the fuzz about Turkey joining EU and Europe it feels a bit weird when Turkey appears in everything related to Europe.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

We grew up knowing that the southeast borders of Europe are where Greece's borders with Turkey are and with all the fuzz about Turkey joining EU and Europe it feels a bit weird when Turkey appears in everything related to Europe.

I agree. The mere concept of Turkey as European feels awfully "forced".

[Miss Marple's nephew]

... The mere concept of Turkey as European feels awfully "forced".

Come on, guys. The definition of Europe, Asia and all the rest is a mere plotted line on a map, drawn up long ago. It is completely useless but for the fact that map-makers thought the world had too little lines across it and after having decided the east-west frontier between Europe and Asia had to find something (anything) to use as referrence point in laying out the north-south frontier.

Today, no-one is courageous enough to suggest redrawing that line and so here we sit argueing over abstract "rules of thumb" and the collapse of pseudo-indignant identities which, they themselves, are products of historical progression and change.

[Chris]

The USA is over twice bigger than the EU, geographically. The gap between the rich and the poor is actually higher in the US than between say a poor Romanian and a rich northern European. The US has many times more billionaires than the EU, and many times more people living in precarious conditions, without health insurance, in trailer parks. Yet few people would argue that the USA are too big and should be split.

You're right about their disparities. But I lived in the States for over ten years. In my day, someone from Georgia was seen a a real novelty to those of us in California. But - same language; national government; customs; cultural identity; education structure/curriculum, entertainment values; legal framework etc.

The size is an issue, but you can't compare the two models, given the EU's massive disparity in cultural, linguistic, religious, economic, historic and legal frameworks, education systems, etc. It's like comparing apples with pears.

I used to be very pro-EU on an intellectual level, but in practice, the disparities make the concept completely impractical and counter-intuitive.

Ask the average guy in the street - are you European first and foremost? I guarantee most would say "no". It's a political and economic construct, not social. Without the social element, it's like building a castle on sand.