KrazyKat said:
I'm going to have to disagree with you here Reiku. I'm not going to argue here against animal testing, but against your idea of, how I see it as, the 'intent' justifiying the means.
This is because the same argument could be used to justify horrible acts like
suicide bombings in Israel/palistine. An independant, free, Palistinian state is certainly a noble goal, but I would no way see that as justifying those acts of terrorism.
Stability and democracy in the Middle East is certainly a noble goal, but does that justify the invasion of Iraq?
Preventing exploitation of animals is certainly a noble goal, but does that justify the acts by ALF?
Eventually you will likely reach a point where the sacrifices for the goal are acceptable, but this does not mean that any sacrifice is acceptable if the goal is noble. With your example of the Christians, exactly how far would you allow them to go in trying to save souls before you stop seeing them as performing good (if misguided acts)? Knocking on people's doors? Forced conversions? Death penalty for those that leave the religion?
>Sigh<
Can't a guy say
anything these days without being accused of supporting terrorism? :blush:
You miss my point, I'm not saying the ends justify the means--I'm saying that a person who does something we consider evil is not nessecarily a
bad person.
To bring up SVF's little jab at me earlier: No, I don't agree that Hitler was a monster--I think he was honestly trying to do what he thought was right and good...
...I also think he was dead wrong, but being mistaken does not make you a monster--it just makes you an idiot. :blush:
That's what scares me, you see: Many people would consider
me an abominable monster if they knew some of my opionions and beliefs--I'm basicly one slip aways from having pitchforks at my door--so I really can't advocate attacking someone for acting on their beliefs.
If their beleifs lead them to attack you first, then by all means kick their ass--but do it because they attacked you, not because they're somehow "evil" for believing that you should die--otherwise you're doing the exact same thing they are: Attacking someone based on your judgement of their beliefs.
What I'm saying is that if a person is trying to do what they think is right, you shouldn't call them a monster just because their idea of right seems wrong to you.
If it is their intent to be evil,
then they're evil--otherwise they're just misguided.
...and while I'm at it, here's a list of beliefs that could get me shot: :evil:
Tokis-Phoenix said:
Good post Reiku, a mature approach to a sensitive subject and the meaning of "monster"/inferior
.
I would like to add some things though;
Take action;
No one can afford to assume that someone else will solve our problems. Every individual has a responsibility to help guide our human family in the right direction. Good wishes are not sufficient.
I disagree. Helping the species is a
bonus, nor a requirement--and very few people if any are wise enough to do anything other than force their values on everyone if they try.
I say leave people alone.
If I want to eat meat, drink booze, have lots of sex and just generally wallow in sin and vice, I say find me a group of like minded people and let us go about our buisness--we'll be too preocupied to bother you.
The moral code;
Irrespective of wether we are a believer or an agnostic, wether we believe in God or karma, moral ethics is a code which everyone is able to pursue.
True, but everyone's moral code is different.
Some say "thou shalt not kill", some say "hang the bastard"--some say both at the same time, which is very entertaining IMO. :blush:
Personally, I believe in vengeance killing--good old fasioned samurai style "I have come for your head!" stuff--I don't even care what your reasons are, if it was bad enough to make you want to kill the guy, that's good enough for me.
I personally believe this is a right and moral thing to do, some people disagree with me--thus we have problems.
The moral perspective;
To pursue growth properly, we need to renew out commitment to human values in many fields. Political life, of course, requires an ethical foundation, but science and religion as well should be pursued from a moral basis.
Again, who decides what's moral and ethical?
A majority vote doesn't tell you who's right, just who's in the majority. Ultimately there's no way for us to accurately judge right and wrong, we each have to go by our own feelings and prejudices.
Take responsibility for those in need;
It is the nature of human beings to yearn for freedom, equality and dignity. If we accept that others have a right to peace and happiness equal to our own, do we not have a responsibility to help those in need?
No.
Nononononononnononononono!
90% of the trouble we get into is by trying to "help" people.
Our idea of happiness is not nessecarily going to make them happy, in fact,
their idea of happiness is not necessarily going to make them happy--it's something we each have to discover on our own.
If you want to help someone, and they want your help, fine--but it's not a requirement.
Heck, some people actually like fighting through their own problems--us downtrodden aren't all helpless and lazy, you know. :blush:
The root of all problems;
Anger, attachment, jealousy, hatred...These are the real enemy.
Negativity is never the solution;
Anger, jealousy, impatience and hatred are the real troublemakers; with them problems cannot be solved. Though one may have temporary success, ultimately one?fs hatred and anger will create further difficulties.
No good ever came of anger;
Anger may seem to offer and energetic way of getting things done, but such a perception of the world is misguided. The only certainty about anger and hatred is that they are destructive.
Two kinds of anger;
Anger I think can be of two types; hatred with ill-feeling is one while another anger, with compassion as the basis of concern- may be positive.
Keep anger in check;
Usually people consider that anger is part of the mind, and that it is better to show it, to let it come. I think that?fs the wrong conception?cResentment because of grievances may be let out, because then it is finished?cConstant anger- that, I think, it is better to check.
Violence is self-perpetuating;
If you succeed through violence at the expense of others rights and welfare, you have not solved the problem, but only created the seeds for another.
The paradox of self-interest;
If we adopt a self-centered approach to life by which we attempt to use others for our own self interest, we might be able to gain temporary benefit, but in the long run we will not succeed in achieving even our personal happiness.
The root of all problems is someone deciding they know what the root of all problems is--and taking a bottle of roundup to it.
Personally, I
enjoy being angry--a lot.
I really have to agree with the Chinese on that whole yin-yang, negative-positive thing, balance is what's needed in the world--not all of one and none of the other.
You make a lot of judgements in that one bsed on your own personal feelings--or maybe just some pretty words you heard somewhere and decided to agree with without really thinking it over.
Some people
enjoy using or hurting others--not me personally, at least not unless they've pissed me off--but some do and a selfless, goody-goody world would make them want to kill themselves.
You're first reaction might be to say that evil people like that shouldn't be in the world--replace the word "evil" with "black" or "Jewish" and see how you feel about saying that.
"But that's different!" You cry...
...that's just what the KKK says. :blush:
"Evil" is just a label we use for people we think it's okay to destroy--more often than not they feel the same way about us, and I'm okay with that.
Purity of intention;
Once you have pure and sincere motivation, all the rest follows. You can develop this right attitude towards others on the basis of kindness, love and respect, and on the clear realisation of the oneness of all human beings.
Yeah, but love and peace aren't the only pure intentions out there--hatred can be quite pure as well.
Once again you're deciding you know what is right and wrong--your intentions may be pure, but some of us human beings like a little conflict to break up our oneness every once in a while.
Give and take;
By showing concern for other people's welfare, sharing other peoples suffering, and helping other people, ultimately one will benefet. If one thinks only of oneself and forgets about others, ultimately one will lose.
Optimism achieves greatness;
An optimistic attitude is the key factor for sucess. Right from the beginning, if you hold a pesimistic attitude even small things may not be acheived.
Not true.
My life became a lot better once I became a pessimistc, selfish bastard.
To quote a few lines from a song I wrote:
I tried
To save this wretched world
I tried
But my heart just filled with hurt
I tried
To do all that I could
I tried
To care more than I should!
I guess I'll find
Another way
I guess I'll find...
>wailing guitar<
I'll be an anti-hero!
I'll step back
And watch you burn!
You're gonna' feel your blood flow
But it's a lesson we all must learn...
Get learnin'. :evil:
Teaching by example;
Before teaching others, before changing others, we ourselves must change. We must be honest, sincere, kind-hearted.
Self-importance;
Tolerance and patience with courage are not signs of failure but signs of victory...Actually, if you are too important, thats a real failure.
This
doesn't always work. Witness the hippy movement and the sudden rise of selfish yuppies in the next generation--or the current "liberal backlash" my country is in the middle of. :blush:
So anyway yeah, bring your pichforks--I've got my katana's and I always love a good fight.