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Thread: Are religious people somehow weaker than atheistic people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revenant
    Are religious people somehow weaker than atheistic people?
    Yes, of course they are.

    In fact, generally speaking, they prey on/feed off one anothers' weaknesses when they sense or know the other is in a weaker position or situation in their life.

    Take children for example: Many devout Christians will see the early childhood years (a time when children can`t reason for themselves) of children to make "it" stick through indoctrination. At that young point in their lives kids are just weak in reasoning and are apt to believe anything -- Jesus or Santa Clause.

    Fear of death, Hell, and Satan however is what keeps the Jesus fiction sticking. If one wanted to keep people believing in Santa Clause, the best way would be to create an evil Santa that would wisk them to a Hell once they stopped believing in the nice Santa.


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    It's true they just believe anything they tell them. But nowadays even non-religious people have xmas and all those commercial festivities. So it's also atheists who are weak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revenant
    I keep coming across atheists that somehow feel that religious people are weak. I don't get this perspective, as I feel that humans just can't deal with pure reality as pure reality, and all therefore have crutches to help them get through difficult times. To me, I see this particular atheistic perspective as arrogant, and somehow not true. I wish I could come up with something more solid, rather than just this vague feeling I have, at the moment what I want to say eludes me. Hope you can catch the gist of it.
    Other perspectives?
    How many people have you met though that belong to different religions and not just christianity?
    You cannot judge all religious people in such a general statement...Buddhism for example is about self-improvement for the benefet of others, to reach enlightenment, to control your weaknesses like selfishness, anger, intolerance of others, jeoulousy etc...Its is a strong religion, most buddhist i have met that have studied the way of the buddhist well were very strong, pleasant and peaceful people. It is not a weak religion, it is about improving oneself for the benefet for others, for the human race, to help end cyclic existance etc.

    Religion draws different people to it- yes, some religious people i have met were needy, insecure and troubled, while others i have met were strong, peaceful and open-minded and happy. Don't we seek help though in troubled times? Does it mean you are weak if you seek help?
    Maybe some religions do attract certain types more than others, but i wouldn't say religious people are "weak" at all in general.
    Its also a bit like saying "real men don't cry".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockLee
    It's true they just believe anything they tell them. But nowadays even non-religious people have xmas and all those commercial festivities. So it's also atheists who are weak.
    lol. Yes, RockLee -- I still love it when my wife gets me a Christman present. For me, most Japanese here, many neo-Christians (like you pointed out), the day is just a comercialized holiday.

    Personally, I tend to be an atheist in the sense I do not believe their is a divine personal God that cares about us or interjects himself into our history or lives. However, I do feel there may be something with a commanding presence which exists everywhere, and this seems to push me towards a Deist belief.

    But, Christmas is fun for the gifts. And it is also fun to dress our dogs up in Santa and elf costumes. Perhaps I should dress them up as the "Manger" cast for Halloween.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokis-Phoenix
    Don't we seek help though in troubled times? Does it mean you are weak if you seek help?
    If I seek help through a councelor or psychiatrist, then it means I am behaving rationally and that is a strength. If I seek help through talking to myself, thinking that my inner voice is a personal god speaking back to me, then that delusional thought -- a weaker state of existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strongvoicesforward
    If I seek help through a councelor or psychiatrist, then it means I am behaving rationally and that is a strength. If I seek help through talking to myself, thinking that my inner voice is a personal god speaking back to me, then that delusional thought -- a weaker state of existence.
    Do you know anything about buddhism? Not every religion revolves around worshipping gods and spirits and things u'know. The vast bulk of its teachings were written by people who fully accept their mortal and human existance in this world, not some guy who claims he's the daughter or son of some god etc.

    The other thing is that councelors and psychiatrists are damn expensive for most people, religion is free guidance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strongvoicesforward
    If I seek help through a councelor or psychiatrist, then it means I am behaving rationally and that is a strength. If I seek help through talking to myself, thinking that my inner voice is a personal god speaking back to me, then that delusional thought -- a weaker state of existence.
    It could be argued that being able to draw strength from within oneself is 'stronger' than having to ask from outside sources for help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokis-Phoenix
    The other thing is that councelors and psychiatrists are damn expensive for most people, religion is free guidance.
    That's not completely true. The collect-money which happens after every mass for instance. Also, there are many religious groups who ask for money to join them.

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    I think the OP meant that people think religious people are weak because they need to be guided by someone, and can't decide for themselves. Some people need someone or some thing to guide them, else they feel insecure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockLee
    That's not completely true. The collect-money which happens after every mass for instance. Also, there are many religious groups who ask for money to join them.
    I'm sure they don't charge hundreds of dollars though...At all the churches i have been to in my home country, England, throughout my life, giving money to the church was completely optional and not mandatory.


    Quote Originally Posted by RockLee
    I think the OP meant that people think religious people are weak because they need to be guided by someone, and can't decide for themselves. Some people need someone or some thing to guide them, else they feel insecure
    Even the atheist needs guidance in their life at some point, anybody would be lying if they said they never needed guidance in certain matters or life. Guidance can be a lot of things, wether its advice, a helping hand, information etc...
    Is the Atheist weak because they need guidance like anyone else? No, neither is the religious person. Their only difference is the path each individual takes.
    All matters and people in life need guidance at some point, if that is weak, then perhaps we are weak by nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokis-Phoenix
    I'm sure they don't charge hundreds of dollars though...At all the churches i have been to in my home country, England, throughout my life, giving money to the church was completely optional and not mandatory.
    There you said it, England isn't the only place in the world you know.

    Even the atheist needs guidance in their life at some point, anybody would be lying if they said they never needed guidance in certain matters or life. Guidance can be a lot of things, wether its advice, a helping hand, information etc...
    Is the Atheist weak because they need guidance like anyone else? No, neither is the religious person. Their only difference is the path each individual takes.
    All matters and people in life need guidance at some point, if that is weak, then perhaps we are weak by nature.
    Ofcourse, but in this case we are talking about spiritual guidance. An Atheist doesn't need a god or someone to guide their lives. Or think s/he will be protected by a "greater" force.

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    I can't imagine that anyone would take a statement so broad, banal and general and label it as true. It doesn't take a great deal of research to find long lists of men and women of faith who no one would ever characterize as weak. To suggest that they are "more influenceable" or "weaker in reasoning" is simply insulting and betrays a deep prejudice against people of faith.

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    Some atheists are probably strong. Others are weak...whatever that means. Some religious people are probably of keen intellect, solid reasoning, and deep courage... while others are sheepish drones...

    Why is drawing strength from "one's self" better than from one's faith? How is living a life without any guidance stronger than following a strict code? Are Marines weaker than the homeless? Do you guys really think that all people get out of religion is someone telling them what to do, how to think and offering some sense of protection?

    If you go back an look at the strenght that Gandhi drew from his self constructed faith-- I don't think you could characterize him as weak. If you read through the book of Martyrs and see how many early Catholics faced death and torture, you would understand the role faith can play. I don't see Martin Luther King Jr. as a particularly weak person or one with flaws in reasoning or judgement. Nor do I think that Mother Theresa was a sheepish drone, incapable of independant thought. I can't consider the Dali Lama weak for his faith.

    I guess this is like asking the question: "Are vegetarians good at math?" Your answer will show more about your prejudices and the stereotypes you carry about vegetarians, then it will give us any idea about how the vegetarian diet affects mathematical ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockLee
    There you said it, England isn't the only place in the world you know.

    Yeah, so, i know england isn't the only place in the world, whats your point?


    Quote Originally Posted by RockLee
    Ofcourse, but in this case we are talking about spiritual guidance. An Atheist doesn't need a god or someone to guide their lives. Or think s/he will be protected by a "greater" force.
    You have a very narrow and simplistic veiw of billions of people in this world who chose to follow a religious/spiritual path or life...
    I am a religious person (learning buddhism), but never have i thought i was protected by some "greater force" as you put it. The definition of Atheist is basically somone who does not believe in the existance of God or gods, you can lead a religious existance in some senses and still be an atheist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Some atheists are probably strong. Others are weak...whatever that means. Some religious people are probably of keen intellect, solid reasoning, and deep courage... while others are sheepish drones...
    Why is drawing strength from "one's self" better than from one's faith? How is living a life without any guidance stronger than following a strict code? Are Marines weaker than the homeless? Do you guys really think that all people get out of religion is someone telling them what to do, how to think and offering some sense of protection?
    If you go back an look at the strenght that Gandhi drew from his self constructed faith-- I don't think you could characterize him as weak. If you read through the book of Martyrs and see how many early Catholics faced death and torture, you would understand the role faith can play. I don't see Martin Luther King Jr. as a particularly weak person or one with flaws in reasoning or judgement. Nor do I think that Mother Theresa was a sheepish drone, incapable of independant thought. I can't consider the Dali Lama weak for his faith.
    I guess this is like asking the question: "Are vegetarians good at math?" Your answer will show more about your prejudices and the stereotypes you carry about vegetarians, then it will give us any idea about how the vegetarian diet affects mathematical ability.
    I agree, good post !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokis-Phoenix
    I am a religious person (learning buddhism), but never have i thought i was protected by some "greater force" as you put it.
    Many Buddhist are de facto Atheists who follow some particular moral discipline. Buddha never claimed to be a god or that there was any god. Hence real Buddhists are Atheists (or Pantheists, which is about the same, just a matter of definition).

    The definition of Atheist is basically somone who does not believe in the existance of God or gods, you can lead a religious existance in some senses and still be an atheist.
    So you define yourself as a "religious Atheist" then ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    If you go back an look at the strenght that Gandhi drew from his self constructed faith-- I don't think you could characterize him as weak. If you read through the book of Martyrs and see how many early Catholics faced death and torture, you would understand the role faith can play. I don't see Martin Luther King Jr. as a particularly weak person or one with flaws in reasoning or judgement. Nor do I think that Mother Theresa was a sheepish drone, incapable of independant thought. I can't consider the Dali Lama weak for his faith.
    What's the point of discussing whether this or that kind of people are weak or strong when you do not say weak/strong at what ? Weak at sport ? Weak at music ? Weak at reasoning ? Weak at self-control ? Weak at manipulating ? Weak at listenning to people ? What do you mean ?

    I am an Atheist, and I admit being weak at many things. But I believe that philosophically convinced Atheists (i.e. "Strong Atheist", strong referring to the conviction, not physical or emotional strength) tend to be stronger at logical reasoning and philosophical thinking than other people. Religious people can be divided in many categories : those strong at spirituality, strong at moralising, strong at puritanism, strong at compassion, strong at manipulating, etc. Very few people are strong at everything or at most things. And not just about religion... It's not "bad" not to be good at something. It's not a negative criticism not to be strong at logical reasoning. We need all kinds of people in a society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    What's the point of discussing whether this or that kind of people are weak or strong when you do not say weak/strong at what ? Weak at sport ? Weak at music ? Weak at reasoning ? Weak at self-control ? Weak at manipulating ? Weak at listenning to people ? What do you mean ?
    Up to this point I agree with you. The question is like asking if fishermen make good omelets... some do, some don't. But then you go on to say that somehow athiests are superior in terms of logical reasoning and philosophical thinking:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I am an Atheist, and I admit being weak at many things. But I believe that philosophically convinced Atheists (i.e. "Strong Atheist", strong referring to the conviction, not physical or emotional strength) tend to be stronger at logical reasoning and philosophical thinking than other people. Religious people can be divided in many categories : those strong at spirituality, strong at moralising, strong at puritanism, strong at compassion, strong at manipulating, etc. Very few people are strong at everything or at most things. And not just about religion... It's not "bad" not to be good at something. It's not a negative criticism not to be strong at logical reasoning. We need all kinds of people in a society.
    It seems to me that you think the only reason people believe in a God is because they have not reasoned it out yet. I think that's a load of dookie. Some of the greatest minds- including those belonging to people renown for logic and philosophy have been religious. I don't think your belief in God or non-belief in God has anything to do with either logic or philosophy and stating something like this is ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Hence real Buddhists are Atheists
    Agnostic actually. Buddha spoke of gods, even saying that one was quite deluded and stuck in the cycle of suffering, but he did say that the existence or non-existence of gods were like a warrior looking at a poisoned arrow embedded in his leg and asking who shot the arrow. It's an irrelevant question in that situation, and the only action the warrior should be taking is getting the poisoned arrow out, along with the poison. The poison is unskillful desires, that also bring about anger, irritation, greed, clinging, aversion, etc.
    "The whole purpose of religion is to facilitate love and compassion, patience, tolerance, humility, forgiveness."
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    Sir Fancis Bacon (1561-1627)
    Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity."
    http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...encefaith.html

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    Small deviation from a theme:
    Here, in a parallel theme,film " Code of DaVinci " has been mentioned...
    And the theme - " about Jesus and Maria's possible relations " is a little...
    I think - myself the believing person...
    But I want " to have nothing the general " with present Christians for whom itself " other idea " on Jesus is already unacceptable...
    To me Jesus Christ's Doctrine, instead of presence in it of " displays of Purity " "is personally valuable"...
    There is such opinion, that during " time " byzantines seriously studied an image of the Christ and made it only with one purpose, that "to withdraw" people from real understanding of it Doctrines...
    So such information has disappeared, that " the woman only becoming similarity chosen her of the man, can comprehend "Kingdom of heaven"... These Words belong to that Maria...
    And apparently from these words - in them the chastity and faithfulness " is incorporated and "...
    And many other "reflections"...
    But why it has been rejected by "byzantines"?...
    .................................................. .................................................. .

    P.S. All this about motivations of believers and atheists

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revenant
    ...he [Buddha] did say that the existence or non-existence of gods were like a warrior looking at a poisoned arrow embedded in his leg and asking who shot the arrow. It's an irrelevant question in that situation, and the only action the warrior should be taking is getting the poisoned arrow out, along with the poison.
    This is one of the problems I have with Buddhism -- there is a lot of (if not too much) centering on the self. It`s a nice analogy but it ignores justice and the prevention of future crimes.

    How about this analogy -- I come upon a serial killer rapist during my hike in the woods and he stabs me to leave me for dead. Luckily another hiker comes across me as I am bleeding out. Should I only focus on trying to save myself -- or if by chance I have thought recognized the killer as someone I know in my small hometown -- should I take the moment to ask a question to clarify my thought on it and pass that information along before I expire? I think I have that responsibility if I am physically able to.

    It is not wrong for the injured to ask about justice or aid justice before he has recovered from his wound. Life is complex and a multi-pronged approach to all its problems are welcomed. Things are not always so simple as one sentence analogies or riddling koans.

    btw -- what is the sound of one hand clapping?

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    *Yes, I, too, went through my Buddhist stage.

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    The following quote was directed at Tokis-Pheonix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    So you define yourself as a "religious Atheist" then ?
    lol. That`s funny and a clever coinage of words. I`ll remember it for future use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strongvoicesforward
    ...it ignores justice and the prevention of future crimes.
    I don't think Buddhism would actually be opposed to either.

    I also think that you might be missing the point of the analogy. I read the point as being that one should prioritize correctly. Does one figure if and which gods exist, or does one work on solving the causes of unnecessary suffering?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revenant
    I don't think Buddhism would actually be opposed to either.
    I also think that you might be missing the point of the analogy. I read the point as being that one should prioritize correctly.
    Hi Revenant. I see your point, but I don`t think I have missed the analogy. The analogy is correct if one thinks that in any given moment one must be myopic. However, I am of the thought that importance can be doled out to several things at once -- we might call that multi-tasking.

    Could you address the analogy I offered you in return, and why Buddhism wouldn`t care for helping to garner information at the moment when death is/could be upon us -- especially when that information could help with justice?

    I could imagine trying to get an arrow out of me on a battlefield and still be looking at the tree line wondering where it came from. Nervous glances back and forth from the tree line to my wound. Knowing where the arrow came from or whom, could at least let me know which way to move so that I am not in the line of fire anymore.

    Like I said, one sentence analogies are often just too simplistic. And, stating so does not mean one has missed the point.

    Does one figure if and which gods exist, or does one work on solving the causes of unnecessary suffering?
    The curious minded who are concerned with the after life and those things they see as mysteries may choose the former. The pragmatics who are firmly planted in the present may choose the latter. A lot of people will go back and forth mixing the two -- like my analogies have shown.

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