Debate Are religious people somehow weaker than atheistic people?

Are religious people somehow weaker than atheists?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 32.8%
  • No

    Votes: 41 67.2%

  • Total voters
    61
Revenant said:
As to the misery on earth, science brings absolutely no comfort as I see it.
Just as a couple of examples, how about the likelihood that scientists will find cures for many diseases or develop solutions to environmental threats?
 
Tsuyoiko said:
Yes, that's exactly what it does. What neuroscience tells me about consciousness means I don't have to be anxious about what will happen, as I 'know' that when my brain dies, I die. What I feel instead is a kind of annoyance that I won't have time to do everything I would like and a sadness that I will leave people behind. The anxiety I feel relates to the worry that I will not leave a legacy or that I will be in pain. But the biggest anxiety - the uncertainty about what will happen - it was science that dispelled that for me.
Do you mean that you are never worried about or afraid of dying beyond the sadness of leaving people behind or your legacy ? Wouldn't you be afraid of having a gun stuck on your forehead, or a deadly spider walk on your hand ?
That might work for you but is useless for me. I know that the atoms composing me are only borrowed. They aren't the same ones I was born with and I won't keep them all my life. I am not the matter that composes me - I am the electrical and chemical activity in my brain, and that will stop when I die.

I think you are mistaken. We have the impression of continuity of the self (feeling oneself and not another) because our nervous system basically keeps the same cells, molecules and atoms from our birth to our death. Neurons do not regenerate themselves (or an tiny amount in some cases). That's why we are not immortal and our body ages. Our memory and mental faculties decline with the years because of that. I agree that the rest of our body cells are only borrowed atoms and energy though.

My atoms might end up in some other creature someday, but that won't help me finish Russian literature, or visit Mars.

Yes, but it comforts me to know that I will experience again that feeling of existence, of being me, again sometime in a probably very distant future. As I won't feel time passing between the death of my current nervous system and the development of the new one (almost certainly not as a homo sapiens, and maybe not on this earth though), there could still be some kind of feeling of continuity between lives. It's just that we have absolutely no memory of previous forms as life beings, and are almost never twice living as the same creature from one time to the next.
 
Maciamo said:
Do you mean that you are never worried about or afraid of dying beyond the sadness of leaving people behind or your legacy ? Wouldn't you be afraid of having a gun stuck on your forehead, or a deadly spider walk on your hand ?
I would be afraid in those situations because of my human nature - it would be an instinctual reaction. But my reasoned, rational response is not one of fear.
Maciamo said:
I think you are mistaken. We have the impression of continuity of the self (feeling oneself and not another) because our nervous system basically keeps the same cells, molecules and atoms from our birth to our death. Neurons do not regenerate themselves (or an tiny amount in some cases).
Oops, you're right - though of course much of the chemistry is transient. Still, I'm more than my atoms!
Maciamo said:
Yes, but it comforts me to know that I will experience again that feeling of existence, of being me, again sometime in a probably very distant future.
OK, I sort of get it. But since it's based entirely on (rational) speculation it's not for me. I need proof. :cool:
 
Maciamo said:
Wouldn't you be afraid of having a gun stuck on your forehead, or a deadly spider walk on your hand ?
I think most people are afraid of undergoing pain, regardless of their ideas about what might happen when they die. I know that I personally am more afraid of being in pain than of actually dying. :shiver:

Yes, but it comforts me to know that I will experience again that feeling of existence, of being me, again sometime in a probably very distant future. As I won't feel time passing between the death of my current nervous system and the development of the new one (almost certainly not as a homo sapiens, and maybe not on this earth though), there could still be some kind of feeling of continuity between lives. It's just that we have absolutely no memory of previous forms as life beings, and are almost never twice living as the same creature from one time to the next.
Am I right in thinking that is a belief in reincarnation, of a sort? :? (That's not meant to be some sort of trick question; I'm just curious! :p)
 
:blush: Small "sketch"...
Life expectancy of the person as it is told in the Bible, has been reduced... To speed up...
Under one version - expiation of its fall...
On another - search by the person of the perfect condition...
(versions both for believers and for atheists)
From the second version also follows - that "body" only "design" for comprehension by the Universe...
Comprehension development of the given form...
"Consciousness" - only information set of images and technologies of thinking (construction of ideas in logic chains...)
Therefore - people and their consciousness only a set of images and chains of ideas typed in biologically
Concerning an independent design - "body"...
And their "emotions" is only images and chains of reflections...
Differently - we only think, that we exist...
In a reality - there are only " information sets ", "written down" in independent time forms(bodys)...
..............................................................................................
:blush: :angel:
 
Revenant said:
Are religious people somehow weaker than atheistic people?

Yes, of course they are.

In fact, generally speaking, they prey on/feed off one anothers' weaknesses when they sense or know the other is in a weaker position or situation in their life.

Take children for example: Many devout Christians will see the early childhood years (a time when children can`t reason for themselves) of children to make "it" stick through indoctrination. At that young point in their lives kids are just weak in reasoning and are apt to believe anything -- Jesus or Santa Clause.

Fear of death, Hell, and Satan however is what keeps the Jesus fiction sticking. If one wanted to keep people believing in Santa Clause, the best way would be to create an evil Santa that would wisk them to a Hell once they stopped believing in the nice Santa.
 
It's true they just believe anything they tell them. But nowadays even non-religious people have xmas and all those commercial festivities. So it's also atheists who are weak.
 
Revenant said:
I keep coming across atheists that somehow feel that religious people are weak. I don't get this perspective, as I feel that humans just can't deal with pure reality as pure reality, and all therefore have crutches to help them get through difficult times. To me, I see this particular atheistic perspective as arrogant, and somehow not true. I wish I could come up with something more solid, rather than just this vague feeling I have, at the moment what I want to say eludes me. Hope you can catch the gist of it.
Other perspectives?

How many people have you met though that belong to different religions and not just christianity?
You cannot judge all religious people in such a general statement...Buddhism for example is about self-improvement for the benefet of others, to reach enlightenment, to control your weaknesses like selfishness, anger, intolerance of others, jeoulousy etc...Its is a strong religion, most buddhist i have met that have studied the way of the buddhist well were very strong, pleasant and peaceful people. It is not a weak religion, it is about improving oneself for the benefet for others, for the human race, to help end cyclic existance etc.

Religion draws different people to it- yes, some religious people i have met were needy, insecure and troubled, while others i have met were strong, peaceful and open-minded and happy. Don't we seek help though in troubled times? Does it mean you are weak if you seek help?
Maybe some religions do attract certain types more than others, but i wouldn't say religious people are "weak" at all in general.
Its also a bit like saying "real men don't cry".
 
RockLee said:
It's true they just believe anything they tell them. But nowadays even non-religious people have xmas and all those commercial festivities. So it's also atheists who are weak.

lol. Yes, RockLee -- I still love it when my wife gets me a Christman present. For me, most Japanese here, many neo-Christians (like you pointed out), the day is just a comercialized holiday.

Personally, I tend to be an atheist in the sense I do not believe their is a divine personal God that cares about us or interjects himself into our history or lives. However, I do feel there may be something with a commanding presence which exists everywhere, and this seems to push me towards a Deist belief.

But, Christmas is fun for the gifts. And it is also fun to dress our dogs up in Santa and elf costumes. Perhaps I should dress them up as the "Manger" cast for Halloween.
 
Tokis-Phoenix said:
Don't we seek help though in troubled times? Does it mean you are weak if you seek help?

If I seek help through a councelor or psychiatrist, then it means I am behaving rationally and that is a strength. If I seek help through talking to myself, thinking that my inner voice is a personal god speaking back to me, then that delusional thought -- a weaker state of existence.
 
strongvoicesforward said:
If I seek help through a councelor or psychiatrist, then it means I am behaving rationally and that is a strength. If I seek help through talking to myself, thinking that my inner voice is a personal god speaking back to me, then that delusional thought -- a weaker state of existence.

Do you know anything about buddhism? Not every religion revolves around worshipping gods and spirits and things u'know. The vast bulk of its teachings were written by people who fully accept their mortal and human existance in this world, not some guy who claims he's the daughter or son of some god etc.

The other thing is that councelors and psychiatrists are damn expensive for most people, religion is free guidance.
 
strongvoicesforward said:
If I seek help through a councelor or psychiatrist, then it means I am behaving rationally and that is a strength. If I seek help through talking to myself, thinking that my inner voice is a personal god speaking back to me, then that delusional thought -- a weaker state of existence.
It could be argued that being able to draw strength from within oneself is 'stronger' than having to ask from outside sources for help.
 
Tokis-Phoenix said:
The other thing is that councelors and psychiatrists are damn expensive for most people, religion is free guidance.
That's not completely true. The collect-money which happens after every mass for instance. Also, there are many religious groups who ask for money to join them.
 
I think the OP meant that people think religious people are weak because they need to be guided by someone, and can't decide for themselves. Some people need someone or some thing to guide them, else they feel insecure.
 
RockLee said:
That's not completely true. The collect-money which happens after every mass for instance. Also, there are many religious groups who ask for money to join them.

I'm sure they don't charge hundreds of dollars though...At all the churches i have been to in my home country, England, throughout my life, giving money to the church was completely optional and not mandatory.


RockLee said:
I think the OP meant that people think religious people are weak because they need to be guided by someone, and can't decide for themselves. Some people need someone or some thing to guide them, else they feel insecure

Even the atheist needs guidance in their life at some point, anybody would be lying if they said they never needed guidance in certain matters or life. Guidance can be a lot of things, wether its advice, a helping hand, information etc...
Is the Atheist weak because they need guidance like anyone else? No, neither is the religious person. Their only difference is the path each individual takes.
All matters and people in life need guidance at some point, if that is weak, then perhaps we are weak by nature.
 
Tokis-Phoenix said:
I'm sure they don't charge hundreds of dollars though...At all the churches i have been to in my home country, England, throughout my life, giving money to the church was completely optional and not mandatory.
There you said it, England isn't the only place in the world you know.

Even the atheist needs guidance in their life at some point, anybody would be lying if they said they never needed guidance in certain matters or life. Guidance can be a lot of things, wether its advice, a helping hand, information etc...
Is the Atheist weak because they need guidance like anyone else? No, neither is the religious person. Their only difference is the path each individual takes.
All matters and people in life need guidance at some point, if that is weak, then perhaps we are weak by nature.
Ofcourse, but in this case we are talking about spiritual guidance. An Atheist doesn't need a god or someone to guide their lives. Or think s/he will be protected by a "greater" force.
 
I can't imagine that anyone would take a statement so broad, banal and general and label it as true. It doesn't take a great deal of research to find long lists of men and women of faith who no one would ever characterize as weak. To suggest that they are "more influenceable" or "weaker in reasoning" is simply insulting and betrays a deep prejudice against people of faith.
 
Some atheists are probably strong. Others are weak...whatever that means. Some religious people are probably of keen intellect, solid reasoning, and deep courage... while others are sheepish drones...

Why is drawing strength from "one's self" better than from one's faith? How is living a life without any guidance stronger than following a strict code? Are Marines weaker than the homeless? Do you guys really think that all people get out of religion is someone telling them what to do, how to think and offering some sense of protection?

If you go back an look at the strenght that Gandhi drew from his self constructed faith-- I don't think you could characterize him as weak. If you read through the book of Martyrs and see how many early Catholics faced death and torture, you would understand the role faith can play. I don't see Martin Luther King Jr. as a particularly weak person or one with flaws in reasoning or judgement. Nor do I think that Mother Theresa was a sheepish drone, incapable of independant thought. I can't consider the Dali Lama weak for his faith.

I guess this is like asking the question: "Are vegetarians good at math?" Your answer will show more about your prejudices and the stereotypes you carry about vegetarians, then it will give us any idea about how the vegetarian diet affects mathematical ability.
 
RockLee said:
There you said it, England isn't the only place in the world you know.


Yeah, so, i know england isn't the only place in the world, whats your point?


RockLee said:
Ofcourse, but in this case we are talking about spiritual guidance. An Atheist doesn't need a god or someone to guide their lives. Or think s/he will be protected by a "greater" force.

You have a very narrow and simplistic veiw of billions of people in this world who chose to follow a religious/spiritual path or life...
I am a religious person (learning buddhism), but never have i thought i was protected by some "greater force" as you put it. The definition of Atheist is basically somone who does not believe in the existance of God or gods, you can lead a religious existance in some senses and still be an atheist.
 
sabro said:
Some atheists are probably strong. Others are weak...whatever that means. Some religious people are probably of keen intellect, solid reasoning, and deep courage... while others are sheepish drones...
Why is drawing strength from "one's self" better than from one's faith? How is living a life without any guidance stronger than following a strict code? Are Marines weaker than the homeless? Do you guys really think that all people get out of religion is someone telling them what to do, how to think and offering some sense of protection?
If you go back an look at the strenght that Gandhi drew from his self constructed faith-- I don't think you could characterize him as weak. If you read through the book of Martyrs and see how many early Catholics faced death and torture, you would understand the role faith can play. I don't see Martin Luther King Jr. as a particularly weak person or one with flaws in reasoning or judgement. Nor do I think that Mother Theresa was a sheepish drone, incapable of independant thought. I can't consider the Dali Lama weak for his faith.
I guess this is like asking the question: "Are vegetarians good at math?" Your answer will show more about your prejudices and the stereotypes you carry about vegetarians, then it will give us any idea about how the vegetarian diet affects mathematical ability.

I agree, good post :cool: !
 

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