Do you feel some affinity for the Greco-Roman culture ?

Do you feel affinity with your Greco-Roman cultural heritage as a Westerner ?

  • Not at all => I am European, from a former part of the Roman Empire

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As to the "topic", I don't even know what feeling an affinity for a certain culture would mean, when their culture has been dead and gone for coming on 2000 years.
As for what they bequeathed the west, that's a different story.

The entire article is worth reading because I get the feeling most people either weren't taught or have forgotten these things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Roman_Empire

One extremely important legacy is law, without which no society can survive. Legal codes based on Roman law are in blue.
Map_of_the_Legal_systems_of_the_world_%28en%29.png
Is this a Napolean was Italian, not French claim? Most of us here (excluding the Islamics) , owe our laws to Napolean. I believe we were all taught this. To me, Civil law is French, but I am no expert.





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I don't get the thing about multi-courses.

Neither do I, but I would like to know how and secondarily where, since it probably was anywhere the leisured classes could eat this way and thus, not started solely in Rome. It does seem kind of a no-brainer that eating dinner as if in a 3 act play (or more) is a sign of class distinction.

First of all, poorer people certainly didn't have multi-course meals anywhere, including Italy or ancient Rome.

Also, multi-course meals meals are by no means only a "Latin" thing. I've been in England quite a bit, and there's usually a starter or appetizer, and then the main course unless people are dieting. It's usually a function of class and money also, of casualness, as well as calories, not southern Europe versus northern Europe.

I've never seen a restaurant or been in a home where only soup is served, for example. You have your soup and then your meat dish, or in England you had a fish course and then the meat course etc.

Of course, Italians, being Italian, are manic about it as they are about all matters relating to food, although much less so now. Also, in the past, most peasants were lucky to get some pasta with garlic and oil.

Victorian England:
"The Dinner Menu

Victorian Dinners, in particular are quite well know for the endless procession of soups, meats, salads, pudding, ices, and meringues or pastries. It was not unusual for a Victorian Dinner menu to be nine courses, with plenty of time allowed between each course to permit each guest to fully enjoy the variety of courses. The following is a sample menu of a six course Victorian Dinner Party based on one designed in 1887 by Maria Parloa, founder of a cooking school. Miss Parola's original dinner recipes would have required a pound of butter, almost a dozen eggs and two quarts of cream.
menu.gif


Legacy_of_the_Roman_Empire
Legacy_of_the_Roman_Empire

I wonder if the higher class eating in courses at home was passed from the hierarchy of Roman and/or other Royal families of Europe such as France , influence to Great Britain.

Restaurants are a modern age invention, stemming from bourgeoise society and thus imitating the higher classes until of course recently. So, it makes sense that the drawn out eating style would be taken up by the aspiring class.
 
Neither do I, but I would like to know how and secondarily where, since it probably was anywhere the leisured classes could eat this way and thus, not started solely in Rome. It does seem kind of a no-brainer that eating dinner as if in a 3 act play (or more) is a sign of class distinction.

I wonder if the higher class eating in courses at home was passed from the hierarchy of Roman and/or other Royal families of Europe such as France , influence to Great Britain.

Restaurants are a modern age invention, stemming from bourgeoise society and thus imitating the higher classes until of course recently. So, it makes sense that the drawn out eating style would be taken up by the aspiring class.

It also has a bit to do with the importance you place on the quality of your food. Most foods should be eaten hot for maximum flavor. I routinely send soup back in a restaurant if it's been sitting in the kitchen and has cooled off. The same goes for most meats, mashed potatoes, and on and on. If you slop it all on the table at once, you're going to have to choose: tepid soup or congealed, disgusting mashed potatoes and dried out meat.

As to Italian eating habits in particular, that is part of what informs the insistence still of many Italians on eating the soup or pasta or risotto first, so it doesn't get cold and also congeal in the case of the latter, thus ruining the taste and texture. If you're doing it alone at home it requires quite a bit of practice to get the timing right.

There are lots of other Italian "eating" rules. Although they've evolved over thousands of years, most Italians treat them as if they were carved in stone and handed to us by God as he gave the Moses the law code for the Israelites. :) We're a conservative people in terms of culture and nowhere more conservative than in matters of food.

Just as an example, many Italians are offended by the whole "spaghetti and meatballs" thing, which they think is a terrible "American" invention. Yet, in parts of Italy they do make meatballs in a tomato sauce, and then use the leftover tomato sauce to dress pasta. HOWEVER, the pasta still has to come out first, and the meatballs later. That, I think, is going too far. The meatballs are going to hit your stomach within minutes of the pasta.

I could go on and on. The way my older relatives react when I offer them iced drinks during a meal you would think they were vampires and I was waving garlic at them. What, am I crazy? Do I want to ruin their digestion? It goes on and on: no milk drinks with meals, no dairy with fish or seafood, do not overload your stomach with proteins and fats at breakfast, etc. etc.

The only people I've ever met who are as obsessed about food are the French. As a university student, my cousin and I checked into a pension in France for a week to use as a base. As we sat to table, we saw the owner going to each table to have a serious discussion about the menu for the evening, and "precisely" how it was prepared. I knew I was "home" in a sense. :)

I'm only seeing the cracks in the last few decades. With more women working outside the home, getting together one course for dinner is about all they can handle. I'm more old fashioned. I would still always serve the risotto, soup, or pasta first, for example, and only then the meat and vegetables. They'd better eat it at its best while it's still hot or I'll smack them. :) The meat should usually sit for a few minutes anyway, so the juices can re-distribute, and thanks to microwaves, I can reheat the vegetables if necessary.
 
I was utterly enchanted until you mentioned the damn microwave
 
Ah, the microwave; the most disused appliance in my house. The only think I use it for is to re-heat certain things, although certainly not meat, or pizza, and occasionally for popcorn.

I don't even know "how" to cook with it, nor do I care to learn.

Speaking of pizza, how the hell can people eat it cold, or, alternatively, re-heat it in the microwave, where it becomes a mass of goo?

I taught my children better; maybe too well. :) My son will rarely eat take out pizza; claims being in the box steams it a bit, which is, of course, true.
 
I grew up in the more Anglo Saxon/Scotch Irish culture of my Father's world, but would often visit the Latin world of my Mother's two entirely different worlds...lets face it the food is way better on the Latin side...as for Pizza I make my own from scratch, of course if I lived in New York that would be a different story :)

BTW you can thank the lower Americas for your tomato sauce Italy :p it only cost a native people their entire culture but eh that's life eh :LOL:

Historically apart from Scotland :) I love the Greco Roman culture even though I've yet to visit Greece or Italy, Covid messed up my plans to and now we have this Russo-Ukraine mess what a damn shame. I'm hoping to at least see Rome, Florence, and Athens before I depart...maybe Constantinople ahem Istanbul :p I need to see the birthplace of Democracy don't die on me damn you!
 
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Without Greco-Roman culture there is no Western Civilization.

The British understood that; that's why the public (private) schools for the elite so heavily emphasized ancient Greek and Latin language and history. Every upper class British boy could quote verbatim from Caesar's account of the Gallic Wars.

The Germans understood that too; that's why they were so desperate to make the Greeks and Romans blonde, blue-eyed Germanics. Alas, that dream has been shattered by ancient dna. I do wish all the "race specialists" in The Third Reich had been allowed a peak into the future. The Ashkenazi Jews they tried to exterminate were closer to the Ancient Greeks than they were.

So, I would say anyone who knows anything about European history should feel an affinity for them.

It has absolutely nothing to do with silly things like pizza etc. or Latino culture.


I'm picking up a slight whiff of "sock" account; almost the same language on the same topic keeps appearing over and over again. Sometimes I wonder how many actual, disparate human beings post here or anywhere on "anthrofora" for that matter.
 
As for the thread, anyone who reads my posts surely knows I feel an affinity to Greco-Roman culture. By both appreciation for the culture as well as a genetic affinity to the progenitors. It is truly marvelous to know that Apulia has one of the strongest affinities to the Ancient Greeks in the world. It is also truly marvelous to see the professional modern academic realization of the Mediterranean Genetic Continuum as a legitimate biological construct, which encompasses Ancient Greeks to Roman Republicans.
 
I detect that as well, there's a kind of puerile and sarcastic tone that makes it reek of it.

No sock here if you are referring to me... I am genuinally peurile and sarcastic by nature :LOL: I'm a Gemini after all :) I took a semester of Latin in College way back when that was enough Veni, vidi, non vici

And Pizza not Italian!? Whether you like it or not you gotta own it now and trust me Hispanic culture is a lot closer to Italian culture take a trip anywhere down there at least more so Argentina, but Spain Italy and Greece all share a unique culture that definitely spread to Latin America...it's all about La Familia

You two must be Boomers, I'm Gen X so grumpy
:LOL:
 
I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the progenitors of both cultures were Pre-Indo-Europeans. The Greeks took almost everything from the Minoans, and the Romans from the Etruscans (although a bit less so).

We often link Western Civilization with IE-speaking peoples but the originators had strong cultural links to the Neolithic people of Europe.
 
No sock here if you are referring to me... I am genuinally peurile and sarcastic by nature :LOL: I'm a Gemini after all :) I took a semester of Latin in College way back when that was enough Veni, vidi, non vici
And Pizza not Italian!? Whether you like it or not you gotta own it now and trust me Hispanic culture is a lot closer to Italian culture take a trip anywhere down there at least more so Argentina, but Spain Italy and Greece all share a unique culture that definitely spread to Latin America...it's all about La Familia
You two must be Boomers, I'm Gen X so grumpy
:LOL:

You have an infraction for provocative/disruptive behavior. We are not going to suffer your foolishness, so cut out the goof ball posts.
 
I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the progenitors of both cultures were Pre-Indo-Europeans. The Greeks took almost everything from the Minoans, and the Romans from the Etruscans (although a bit less so).
We often link Western Civilization with IE-speaking peoples but the originators had strong cultural links to the Neolithic people of Europe.
The Greeks and Romans are Indo-European admixed, with the origins of the language and culture coming from the Indo-Europeans. Though no doubt the Neolithic people prior to them contributed greatly, and even greater to the autosomal make-up.
 
Come on guys don't take things to heart, what's with all the hate? Calma Calma...I still like you both better than any WASP or Tedeschi :embarassed:
 
Without Greco-Roman culture there is no Western Civilization.

The British understood that; that's why the public (private) schools for the elite so heavily emphasized ancient Greek and Latin language and history. Every upper class British boy could quote verbatim from Caesar's account of the Gallic Wars.

The Germans understood that too; that's why they were so desperate to make the Greeks and Romans blonde, blue-eyed Germanics. Alas, that dream has been shattered by ancient dna. I do wish all the "race specialists" in The Third Reich had been allowed a peak into the future. The Ashkenazi Jews they tried to exterminate were closer to the Ancient Greeks than they were.

So, I would say anyone who knows anything about European history should feel an affinity for them.

It has absolutely nothing to do with silly things like pizza etc. or Latino culture.


I'm picking up a slight whiff of "sock" account; almost the same language on the same topic keeps appearing over and over again. Sometimes I wonder how many actual, disparate human beings post here or anywhere on "anthrofora" for that matter.

Gabreile D'Annunzio, who was the progenitor of fascism, along with other early Italian fascists stressed the idea that Italy was connected the the Hellenic world, along with the Roman world, and sought to re-unite it. He even glorified the historical significance of Puglia, particularly.


Italy's Sea: Empire and Nation in the Mediterranean, 1895-1945


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lX2cu0U.png


yPvlE4t.png


Though eventually the Italian fascists capitulated to Nazism, and started to accept Giulio Cogni's brand of Nordicism; which only put Italians forever in a subordinate position to Germanics. However, this ideology was eventually rejected, I recall, and I think it just became dubious what the main racial ideology was. But at that point, Italy had become a junior partner and vassal to Germany. That's also what spelled doom for the Italian Jewish members of the Fascists.
 
Well the way I look at it is Western civilization began in the near east you got to give true credit to the city states in the fertile crescent, the levant and Egypt with the Minoans probably taking credit for being the first to bring it West. The later Greeks continued to be influenced culturally via Egypt then the Romans via Greece and the Germans via the Romans you wouldn't have a Kaiser without first a Caesar
 
Gabreile D'Annunzio, who was the progenitor of fascism, along with other early Italian fascists stressed the idea that Italy was connected the the Hellenic world, along with the Roman world, and sought to re-unite it. He even glorified the historical significance of Puglia, particularly.


Italy's Sea: Empire and Nation in the Mediterranean, 1895-1945


T7Txl8I.png


lX2cu0U.png


yPvlE4t.png


Though eventually the Italian fascists capitulated to Nazism, and started to accept Giulio Cogni's brand of Nordicism; which only put Italians forever in a subordinate position to Germanics. However, this ideology was eventually rejected, I recall, and I think it just became dubious what the main racial ideology was. But at that point, Italy had become a junior partner and vassal to Germany. That's also what spelled doom for the Italian Jewish members of the Fascists.

That's exactly what happened. I've heard it described as thinking they were going to bed the Rhine Maiden and wound up with an SS Storm trooper.

D'Annunzio was a great poet, imo, but that's about as far as it goes for me; read too much Nietzsche, and a megalomaniac. I mean, setting himself up as a "Duce" in Fiume and proclaiming music the bedrock of the state was bizarre to say the least.

Plus, I'd call him an ultranationalist, not a fascist, although Mussolini copied some of his ideas.

It's as well to remember, however, that these were the musings of D'Annunzio. He by no means spoke for the vast majority of the Italian population. The Italians never elected the Fascists into power; it was more inertia than anything else when Mussolini took power by simply marching into Rome.

The Italy of the time was still an agricultural country, with the majority of people farming either their own land or working as sharecroppers or laborers. If their rulers promised land reform in Italy and new land in North Africa then they were all for it, and returning to the glory that was Rome, and kicking out all the foreigners lording it around Italy sounded great too, but Italy was still a monarchy technically, and it was mostly to the King that a lot of people felt loyalty or, in the North, which was more industrialized, to the Socialists or the Anarchists. My father's birthplace, Sarzana, was the last town in Italy to let the Fascists into the town, something of which they're very proud to this day.

My family members were those who lost jobs because they wouldn't join the party, and were harassed because they spoke their minds too often. When conscription came, they to a man joined the Royal Military Forces. There were no Fascists in my family or among their friends; a few anarchists and Communists, but mostly just people who loved their country but distrusted this alliance which they felt had been thrust upon them.

To this point about whether most Italians, more so than people from other countries, felt an affinity for Greco-Roman culture, yes they did, but the emphasis is on "Roman", at least where I was born. The ruins of Rome were all around them, for one thing. My father was like that; I was scrambling around the ruins of Luni when I had just graduated from toddling. As I've said before, he would have been horrified to find out that the Gauls actually might have contributed to his genetics. He thought we were descended from the Romans. Perhaps it was different in the south. Although I usually hear it from Greeks, not Italians, "una faccia, una razza" had to come from somewhere, and many of their ruins were from the period of Magna Graecia. My husband certainly felt some affinity to ancient Greece, but more so to ancient Rome, which is why he concentrated on Latin, not ancient Greek.

As far as we in the North and Toscana were concerned, I never heard anyone, either family or friends, mention the Greeks in terms of ancestry. That's something which has come to light with population genetics, in home testing etc.

Certainly, in terms of the modern cultures to which he felt an affinity, it would have been France, which was just over the border, or Spain. It was French he and his associates spoke, if they spoke a foreign language, not Greek, and it was French literature they read, and also some Spanish literature. He even read American literature, although in translation. Language mattered, and to anyone who speaks Italian, learning French and Spanish is no great feat. Religion mattered too, even if they were anti-clerical, and a shared history of the Renaissance and Enlightenment, or just the European history in general that they shared, including all the bloody battles, including the ones against the Ottomans.

Greece, unfortunately, had been isolated by its Ottoman rulers, and just didn't enter into the equation. As for the genetic link between Southern Italians, predominantly, and the ancient Greeks, knowledge of that is a very recent development. I'm sure most older Southern Italians would be a bit appalled to think they weren't 100% "Italian", and descended from the Romans. Acknowledging one has been invaded or colonized by certain countries doesn't equate to understanding what if any ancestry comes from those events.
 
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I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the progenitors of both cultures were Pre-Indo-Europeans. The Greeks took almost everything from the Minoans, and the Romans from the Etruscans (although a bit less so).

We often link Western Civilization with IE-speaking peoples but the originators had strong cultural links to the Neolithic people of Europe.

The revenge of the EEF? :)
 
That's exactly what happened. I've heard it described as thinking they were going to bed the Rhine Maiden and wound up with an SS Storm trooper.
D'Annunzio was a great poet, imo, but that's about as far as it goes for me; read too much Nietzsche, and a megalomaniac. I mean, setting himself up as a "Duce" in Fiume and proclaiming music the bedrock of the state was bizarre to say the least.
Plus, I'd call him an ultranationalist, not a fascist, although Mussolini copied some of his ideas.
It's as well to remember, however, that these were the musings of D'Annunzio. He by no means spoke for the vast majority of the Italian population. The Italians never elected the Fascists into power; it was more inertia than anything else when Mussolini took power by simply marching into Rome.
The Italy of the time was still an agricultural country, with the majority of people farming either their own land or working as sharecroppers or laborers. If their rulers promised land reform in Italy and new land in North Africa then they were all for it, and returning to the glory that was Rome, and kicking out all the foreigners lording it around Italy sounded great too, but Italy was still a monarchy technically, and it was mostly to the King that a lot of people felt loyalty or, in the North, which was more industrialized, to the Socialists or the Anarchists. My father's birthplace, Sarzana, was the last town in Italy to let the Fascists into the town, something of which they're very proud to this day.
My family members were those who lost jobs because they wouldn't join the party, and were harassed because they spoke their minds too often. When conscription came, they to a man joined the Royal Military Forces. There were no Fascists in my family or among their friends; a few anarchists and Communists, but mostly just people who loved their country but distrusted this alliance which they felt had been thrust upon them.
To this point about whether most Italians, more so than other countries, felt an affinity for Greco-Roman culture, yes they did, but the emphasis is on "Roman". The ruins of Rome were all around them, for one thing. My father was like that; I was scrambling around the ruins of Luni when I was still toddling. As I've said before, he would have been horrified to find out that the Gauls actually might have contributed to his genetics. He thought we were descended from the Romans.
I never heard him or anyone I know in Italy, either family or friends, mention the Greeks in terms of ancestry. Certainly, in terms of the modern cultures to which he felt an affinity, it would have been France, which was just over the border, or Spain. It was French he and his associates spoke, if they spoke a foreign language, not Greek, and it was French literature they read, and also some Spanish literature. Language mattered, and to anyone who speaks Italian, learning French and Spanish is no great feat. Religion mattered too, even if they were anti-clericals, and a shared history of the Renaissance and Enlightenment, or just the European history in general that they shared.
Greece, unfortunately, had been isolated by their Ottoman rulers, and just didn't enter into the equation. As for the genetic link between Southern Italians, predominantly, and the ancient Greeks, knowledge of that is a very recent development. I'm sure most older Italians would be a bit appalled to think they weren't 100% "Italian", and descended from the Romans.
My grandfather who I share the same exact name with fought for Italy in WWII. But he was not a fascist in his beliefs, he was conscripted to fight at 18. However, he had changed sides, and was captured by the Nazis and spent a few years as a POW.
Yes, the people in my family also believe they are 100% Romans. Especially the older people. My mom's town particularly is where people had mused of also having some ancient Greek ancestors. Turns out they were right. Even in regards to my dad's town, though he didn't know it. But they also consider themselves natives of their respective towns, when referring to themselves primarily. But also 100% Italian too. Though, Italians are of course aware of variation even from a town to town basis.
 
I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the progenitors of both cultures were Pre-Indo-Europeans. The Greeks took almost everything from the Minoans, and the Romans from the Etruscans (although a bit less so).

We often link Western Civilization with IE-speaking peoples but the originators had strong cultural links to the Neolithic people of Europe.

I've been musing about your question as I've gone about my day. :)

I don't know where you're getting that "we often link Western Civilization with IE-speaking peoples".

Who is the "We" in that sentence? When I was in university, and a good one if I may say so, the Indo-Europeans were barely mentioned in the year long required Western Civilization course. As a major in European history they were barely mentioned in the other courses I took too, usually only in reference to language and the sky gods etc.

It was very much a niche subject, very much relegated to "anthropology" courses, where it was already in very bad odor as a relic of racist 19th century anthropologists and Nazism.

The emphasis was indeed on the invention of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent, the division of labor, city states, writing, the Babylonian Empire, jump to the Greek City States and Greek culture, and then Rome.

Even today, in the courses which still remain, you can see the Indo-Europeans are conspicuous by their absence.

This is just the first syllabus which popped up.
https://sasn.rutgers.edu/sites/defa...-files/Western Civ 1 syllabus fall 2021_0.pdf

The first mention of them I heard was through a psychology class which assigned a paper by Cavalli-Sforza on in-breeding. The professor happened to be a believer in genetics as an element in IQ. (He'd be fired now!) I went on to read other papers Cavalli-Sforza had written and fell down the rabbit hole. :) I then took a course in Greek mythology, read Frazier, Marija Gimbutas, and so on.

If people pick up their European history from discussions on anthrofora, they can get a very warped view of how it was taught and the conclusions which were drawn. So far as I was taught and knew: "ex oriente lux", or light comes from the east. Other, as I said, than for language and religion, "Western Civilization" was formed by the absorption of the advancements which first took place in the Near East, and later on in Greece and Rome.

I will acknowledge that once you know the signs to look for, there are Indo-European elements to ancient Greek culture, for example in the glorification of the warrior and the horse, and in the religion, but that was not something which was ever taught in Western Civ classes. To the best of my recollection it wasn't even taught in Greek history classes. You had to take specific courses on Bronze Age Europe perhaps. I honestly don't know.
 
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