Are sexual harassment laws for ugly and weak women ?

[Maciamo]

Here is a quote by Richard Fish in the TV Series 'Ally Mcbeal'. Try to reflect on it and tell me your opinion.

R. Fish : "Personally, I hate sexual harassment laws. The original force behind them were disgruntled lesbians who felt they were not given the same opportunities - along with ugly women, who were jealous of pretty women who got all the breaks in the work force. My cause to action is simple, women are victims. They need special help. Look, at the evolution of these sexual harassment laws. What we are really saying is women really should qualify under the Federal Disablity Act. They are less able. They cannot cope with romance in the office. They cannot contend with having to do a job and have a man smile at them. It is too much. Look where we use to be, first quid pro quo, then hostile environment, and now Seinfeld episodes. Women can't take it; they bruise too easily. The laws are here to protect the weak and most vulnerable in society. She is woman, protect her! "


I think it is a quite universally recognised fact that women are in average "weaker" than men (psychologically), more emotionally unstable, and less "into sex with strangers". So Fish's comments somewhat make sense. I also noticed that very beautiful or sexy women are more likely to accept doing porn because they are proud of their body or have higher oestrogen levels (hence the more feminine and "sexy" traits). Women who are very offended at the fact that other women use their charms to make money, get a promotion or favour from their male boss, etc. are usually less sexy and less attractive types (well at least within the same socio-cultural group, as education, religion and conservatism also play a role).

As much as I personally loath the idea of women using their charms to obtain favours or money out of men, if we keep private emotions and pride aside the above pleading does make sense.

[Minty]

I am not exactly sure about the ugly, the weak I agree. I mean if a woman are ugly she would not get guys, no many guys like ugly women, but there are also ugly men who need women and if they don’t have other major qualities they will have no choice but to go for ugly women.

I have used my looks to get away with parking/speeding tickets. However I think I have also faced sexual harassment before, I think it is good that these kinds of laws are there so that we get protected. You can use it to scare a man off if you really don’t like to be bothered by him. I admit I am not a very strong person; I need to be protected, by my parents, my husband, by my older or male relatives...

Some women turned into Lesbians because they have such bad luck with men, so maybe there are some who use this sexual harassment law to revenge back at men. I supposed that is possible.

I don’t really agree that beautiful women are likely to be porn stars, or promiscuous maybe so in Western world but in say the Chinese media industry it is not necessarily true. The ones who got in porn business are usually the desperate ones who have been defeated down in the Chinese media because in that circle it is full of beautiful women so the competition is tough. (When I say Chinese media I mean all of it, Mainland, Taiwan, HK, SG, M'sia...).

I have heard of some Chinese/Taiwanese women who are very promiscuous and had a lot of men, but they are not necessary winners in the end. They got many men to sleep with them because they are easy not because they are pretty. In the end they still get dumped by men because of their promiscuous behaviour that men think they are not suitable to be a good wife. I don’t mean just Chinese men.

[Ma Cherie]

The character Richard Fish was a sexist sh*thead, so that's my opinion about him.

To be perfectly honest, this almost sounds like an issue of lookism. The reason why I feel this is because there has been some research done on how attractive and average looking people are treated. Most likely, the more attractive person will get hired on a job, get promoted, and even have a higher salary than his or her average looking counterpart, who just so happens to have the same qualifications and motivation.

So, to me a person who is considered "less attractive" has every right to get offended. Especially if they're just as smart and qualified. To me, this sounds like a woman who is less attractive is just being emotional when she sees blatant discrimination.

That's what this sounds like to me.

I'll comment on something about sexual harassment.

[Ma Cherie]

Minty you made a good point about easy women, that's usually what happens to women when they become easy just to get ahead. The men they sleep with get tired of them and then toss them aside.
This issue with sexual harassment, now the whole reason why there are sexual harassment laws in the first are because there were times when the woman's boss would make advances, make offensive sexual comments, and have to perform sexual favors. If this happened when there weren't any sexual harassment laws, the woman would have to tolerate this kind of treatment. (I'm making generalizations here ). If she did report this kind of treatment, she would be cosidered a trouble maker or that she was "asking for it".
Personally, I'm glad there are sexual harassment laws, because that means I don't have to put with being treated in that manner. Of course there are women out there who cry sexual harassment when a male co-worker smiled at her or told her she was pretty.

Sorry for the double post.

[PRIZMATIC]

Here "ill luck" - the God has created " the man and the woman "... And now the mankind does not know, that with it to do...
In " ancient doctrines " was specified difference of motivations in sexual behaviour
Men and women: " the man - the carrier of a seed ", " the woman - a receptacle for a seed " is and defines their behaviour...
That in these " constant aspirations " there was no "Chaos" there was a culture of mutual relations between them...
But "Chaos" has led to to that we now have in modern culture...
Christianity as basically and all nowadays existing religions, never knew how " to stop internal Chaos of aspirations " - strict "interdictions" of religion only "suppressed" the nature of aspirations, but did not give " disposal of Chaos "...
"Chaos" is not " abstract prays " or "icons" are the real aspirations created by the Nature... Having a definite purpose and tasks...
..............................

P.S. www.prizmatic1.by.ru

[Ma Cherie]

Here "ill luck" - the God has created " the man and the woman "... And now the mankind does not know, that with it to do...
In " ancient doctrines " was specified difference of motivations in sexual behaviour
Men and women: " the man - the carrier of a seed ", " the woman - a receptacle for a seed " is and defines their behaviour...
That in these " constant aspirations " there was no "Chaos" there was a culture of mutual relations between them...
But "Chaos" has led to to that we now have in modern culture...
Christianity as basically and all nowadays existing religions, never knew how " to stop internal Chaos of aspirations " - strict "interdictions" of religion only "suppressed" the nature of aspirations, but did not give " disposal of Chaos "...
"Chaos" is not " abstract prays " or "icons" are the real aspirations created by the Nature... Having a definite purpose and tasks...
..............................

P.S. www.prizmatic1.by.ru

I find your posts to be very strange.

[Duo]

Well we all know that women have most, if not all power, when it comes to women-to-men relationships of any kind. These laws I agree that are necessary in many cases... but u know sexual harrassment happens to men as welll....though they would hardly ever report it or even consider it such....but it happens trust me....there is a difference in perception i suppose. I guess these laws were designed to have a society that's more equal and what not...so that the woman can be as equal and free in the workplace/public sphere as men are...however isn't it funny that there is no possible measure to be taken to curb the immense sexual power that women have over men... i mean there is no measure or legislation possible to have both sexes have an equal power over each other. Sooooooo... i think it's quite funny that everyone address this point of women being unequal and harrassed and all that but no one hardly mentions the fact that women have control over an immense drive in human life. An essential need just like food and sleep. Imagine if like somebody controlled when you'd be able to feed yourself or when you could go to sleep....welcome to a man's world ;)

And i think it's this one of the factors that causes men to be too pushy at times...one always wants to be in control of his/her destiny...and we always try to fight the outside forces that hinder our way...i think this is a very important aspect...sexual instinct and need aside. I'm not trying to excuse any abusive male behavior by theorizing in a such way...please dont misunderstand me.... i'm just trying to make a point that this may be a reason tha causes such behaviour in men...which leads to the legislation we were speaking of above. So maybe we should work on equalizing sexual power and we would have solved the problem of sexual harrasment ;)

One more thing i must say is that i notice that the notion of sexual harrasment is way more spread in the US than in Europe...i rarely hear about sexual harrasment cases on the media here...in fact in some Italian comedy shows the comics...presantors always make sexual inuendos, jokes and advances to the many sexy dancers and other female presence in the shows...and it is laughed off from both sides and this kind of comedy seems to be much appreciated... i know i like it quite a bit because it very genuine and natural.... i can never imagine such a show airing in the US.

[Maciamo]

I am not exactly sure about the ugly, the weak I agree. I mean if a woman are ugly she would not get guys, no many guys like ugly women, but there are also ugly men who need women and if they donft have other major qualities they will have no choice but to go for ugly women.

You have a point. Except if, like in Ally McBeal, the woman suing for sexual discrimination is because the boss promotes the pretty girls he sleeps with, while she cannot get promoted because the boss has no intrest in her. So it is sexual discrimination because she wasn't asked by the boss to have sex, and so her carreer suffers from it !

I donft really agree that beautiful women are likely to be porn stars, or promiscuous maybe so in Western world but in say the Chinese media industry it is not necessarily true.

When I said porn I had magazines like Playboy in mind. It is amazing the number of beautiful women they can get, and how it has almost become a sign of status (for shallow people) to be on the cover page of Playboy. We even see Hollywood stars or famous singers ! But all the women I have heard disparaging Playboy saying that it was just degrading to women because they are seen as sex objects, are unattractive women (and I sensed some frustration and jealousy). I have been told by some Japanese (and Korean !) girl that many beautiful girls actually wanted to be in famous porn/erotic magazines as they were proud of their body and wanted to show it before it was 'too late'. When I watch MTV, I sometimes wonder if some female singers are there to sing or show their body... I also noticed that a lot of "party girls" (or boys) with a more promiscuous lifestyle were the more sexy and attractive types. It's not really about "beauty" but more "sexiness". And I believe that sexiness had a lot to do with sex drive and how one wants to be seen, rather than natural beauty.

[Maciamo]

To be perfectly honest, this almost sounds like an issue of lookism. The reason why I feel this is because there has been some research done on how attractive and average looking people are treated. Most likely, the more attractive person will get hired on a job, get promoted, and even have a higher salary than his or her average looking counterpart, who just so happens to have the same qualifications and motivation.
So, to me a person who is considered "less attractive" has every right to get offended. Especially if they're just as smart and qualified. To me, this sounds like a woman who is less attractive is just being emotional when she sees blatant discrimination.

Isn't it part of human (or just animal) nature to favour beauty and attractiveness ? Honestly, would you prefer to work with attractive or ugly people ? Some customer-oriented jobs even require good looks (flight attendant, salesperson...)

[Maciamo]

but u know sexual harrassment happens to men as welll....though they would hardly ever report it or even consider it such....but it happens trust me....

I agree, and this will be increasingly happening as women get to more positions of power. Belgium for instance has already more female than male ministers (although I doubt that's the kind of level where sexual harassment happen ).

I guess these laws were designed to have a society that's more equal and what not...so that the woman can be as equal and free in the workplace/public sphere as men are...however isn't it funny that there is no possible measure to be taken to curb the immense sexual power that women have over men... i mean there is no measure or legislation possible to have both sexes have an equal power over each other. Sooooooo... i think it's quite funny that everyone address this point of women being unequal and harrassed and all that but no one hardly mentions the fact that women have control over an immense drive in human life.

I agree. Women can be manipulative or greatly influence decisions made by men. How many political leaders (even dictators like Napoleon) were influenced by the wife or mistress ? Some women actually try to seduce men of power not just for money but for power itself. Among men, the most charismatic man with the highest testosterone level tends to become the dominant male, and they often achieve positions of power. Women can't count on the image of authority so much, but they have their charms. Unfortunately for them, charm alone don't work to lead masses or command respect in a company. But it works in close, one-to-one relations with a man. So if they can get to the man at the top, they can control the whole hierarchy, without actually having to do the "executive" part herself.

One more thing i must say is that i notice that the notion of sexual harrasment is way more spread in the US than in Europe...i rarely hear about sexual harrasment cases on the media here...in fact in some Italian comedy shows the comics...presantors always make sexual inuendos, jokes and advances to the many sexy dancers and other female presence in the shows...and it is laughed off from both sides and this kind of comedy seems to be much appreciated... i know i like it quite a bit because it very genuine and natural.... i can never imagine such a show airing in the US.

Latin societies in particular have more tolerance to sexual innuedos. I am not sure that Britainis so different from the US in that regard. Nordic countries and the Netherlands are certainly more gender egalitarian and liberal, but in fact I wonder if women do not claim too easily sexual discrimination. They even made a law in Norway obliging companies to have a third of women on the board of directors, based on sexual discrimination laws...

[Ma Cherie]

Isn't it part of human (or just animal) nature to favour beauty and attractiveness ? Honestly, would you prefer to work with attractive or ugly people ? Some customer-oriented jobs even require good looks (flight attendant, salesperson...)

That depends on what your definition of attractivness and ugly is. I'd feel quite at home if I was working with someone who has average looks. But that's just me. Yes it's human nature, but then again, I also believe humans are socially conditioned to want to favor beauty.

[Minty]

You have a point. Except if, like in Ally McBeal, the woman suing for sexual discrimination is because the boss promotes the pretty girls he sleeps with, while she cannot get promoted because the boss has no intrest in her. So it is sexual discrimination because she wasn't asked by the boss to have sex, and so her carreer suffers from it !

Hmm I am a bit confused here, your title says sexual harassment, but now you are talking about sexual discriminations, aren't they different things?

When I said porn I had magazines like Playboy in mind. It is amazing the number of beautiful women they can get, and how it has almost become a sign of status (for shallow people) to be on the cover page of Playboy. We even see Hollywood stars or famous singers ! But all the women I have heard disparaging Playboy saying that it was just degrading to women because they are seen as sex objects, are unattractive women (and I sensed some frustration and jealousy). I have been told by some Japanese (and Korean !) girl that many beautiful girls actually wanted to be in famous porn/erotic magazines as they were proud of their body and wanted to show it before it was 'too late'. When I watch MTV, I sometimes wonder if some female singers are there to sing or show their body...

I don't think there are that many beautiful women in the world, if so every time I go out I would see some, but I rarely see any. Yes they are concentrated in the media because that's where the sexy, beautiful women are most wanted for career purposes that's why over there, there are many but on a global scale, I don't think it is the case. The media are able to get very beautiful women because of fame and money. Yes I supposed beautiful women like to show off their figures and faces, but being a popular movie star/magazine model will be showing off all those things. From what I gather porn stars got into the business because they want to be in the media industry and they need to start somewhere, as not all of them are lucky to get good roles right from the start.

I also noticed that a lot of "party girls" (or boys) with a more promiscuous lifestyle were the more sexy and attractive types. It's not really about "beauty" but more "sexiness". And I believe that sexiness had a lot to do with sex drive and how one wants to be seen, rather than natural beauty.

It's true that if you look good you can go out to show off more, hence you are more popular with the opposite sex, but I don't think it necessarily means therefore you have more sex drive, but rather is to do with pride and popularity. I mean there are ugly people with high sex drives but since they are not popular they watch porn and masturbate instead. There are some who rape instead.

[Ma Cherie]

You have a point. Except if, like in Ally McBeal, the woman suing for sexual discrimination is because the boss promotes the pretty girls he sleeps with, while she cannot get promoted because the boss has no intrest in her. So it is sexual discrimination because she wasn't asked by the boss to have sex, and so her carreer suffers from it !
When I said porn I had magazines like Playboy in mind. It is amazing the number of beautiful women they can get, and how it has almost become a sign of status (for shallow people) to be on the cover page of Playboy. We even see Hollywood stars or famous singers ! But all the women I have heard disparaging Playboy saying that it was just degrading to women because they are seen as sex objects, are unattractive women (and I sensed some frustration and jealousy). I have been told by some Japanese (and Korean !) girl that many beautiful girls actually wanted to be in famous porn/erotic magazines as they were proud of their body and wanted to show it before it was 'too late'. When I watch MTV, I sometimes wonder if some female singers are there to sing or show their body... I also noticed that a lot of "party girls" (or boys) with a more promiscuous lifestyle were the more sexy and attractive types. It's not really about "beauty" but more "sexiness". And I believe that sexiness had a lot to do with sex drive and how one wants to be seen, rather than natural beauty.

It must have occured to you that at least half of the women that are on MTV or pose for Playboy had gone through some sort of plastic surgery. Do you think that "sexy" people have high self esteem and that "average" looking people have low self esteem? It's more true that female singers on MTV are there to show their bodies, because none of them can't sing. But wouldn't it make more sense for women who are attractive to be victims of sexual harassment if this is an issue of attractivness?

[Duo]

I just want to adress one point concerning sexual harrasment. In public in general, like tram, buses, metro, cinemas, clubs and many such other public places a man is very careful about touching, even by accident, a strange woman. I know I am. In club/bars for example a man may try to come and pik up a lady...but he will not touch her unless he feels he has consent...and even if he does happen to brush aside her by accident he will apologize in a manner to make it clear that it was an accident. However, if a woman touches a strange man by accident she will not go to the same lengths...and the man won't even bother to expect an apology or explanation. Women take more liberty in such things. For example in clubs i always remember girls walkin past me and having no trouble or second thoughts putting their hands on my shoulder to signal me to move by or what. I think women have much freedom in this sense.

[Maciamo]

I just want to adress one point concerning sexual harrasment. In public in general, like tram, buses, metro, cinemas, clubs and many such other public places a man is very careful about touching, even by accident, a strange woman. I know I am. In club/bars for example a man may try to come and pik up a lady...but he will not touch her unless he feels he has consent...and even if he does happen to brush aside her by accident he will apologize in a manner to make it clear that it was an accident. However, if a woman touches a strange man by accident she will not go to the same lengths...and the man won't even bother to expect an apology or explanation. Women take more liberty in such things. For example in clubs i always remember girls walkin past me and having no trouble or second thoughts putting their hands on my shoulder to signal me to move by or what. I think women have much freedom in this sense.

I agree. We could say that women are more 'sensitive' (or oversensitive) about being touched, yet take more liberties in touching men without their consent. I remember in highschool that some girls I didn't know so well just grabbed my butt once. I ignored her, but I am pretty sure that if a boy had done the same thing to a girl he didn't really know, he would have been slapped in the face or there would have been a scene. So why are men more tolerant toward women's misdemeanours, even when it bothers them ? Is it just than women (in general, not all obviously) are weaker emotionally ? Is that a good excuse to have laws protecting mainly women againt men and not the reverse ?

[Maciamo]

It must have occured to you that at least half of the women that are on MTV or pose for Playboy had gone through some sort of plastic surgery. Do you think that "sexy" people have high self esteem and that "average" looking people have low self esteem? It's more true that female singers on MTV are there to show their bodies, because none of them can't sing. But wouldn't it make more sense for women who are attractive to be victims of sexual harassment if this is an issue of attractivness?

You don't need to be beautiful/handsome to be sexy. These are two very different things. Likewise not all (not even most) beautiful people are sexy. For instance, a very beautiful woman that is too cold and serious, doesn't care about clothing and doesn't wear make-up may not be sexy. Sexisness is more about one's will to arouse other people. It's in the mind and in the style, not really in the physical beauty.

[Duo]

A lot of women complain about having men being shallow and judging on looks and what not...but women do the same. I remember in school especially girls were the ones that left other girls out of their groups because they were not cute enough or what not...or they wouldn't invite certain people to their parties because they weren't popular enough and so forth. Even more so there are so many women out there who use their looks to their advantage. They just smile at some poor guy and get their way...oh buy a me a drink ? How many times i have heard some girls say this. I find it hypocritical that on one side u degrate yourself based on your look and then if in an another occasion it doesn't work out you complain about men being shallow and preferring beauty and what not.

[Maciamo]

A lot of women complain about having men being shallow and judging on looks and what not...but women do the same. I remember in school especially girls were the ones that left other girls out of their groups because they were not cute enough or what not...or they wouldn't invite certain people to their parties because they weren't popular enough and so forth.

Same observation here.

Even more so there are so many women out there who use their looks to their advantage. They just smile at some poor guy and get their way...oh buy a me a drink ? How many times i have heard some girls say this. I find it hypocritical that on one side u degrate yourself based on your look and then if in an another occasion it doesn't work out you complain about men being shallow and preferring beauty and what not.

Exactly. That's why my original question was : "Are sexual discrimination laws for ugly women", because they feel left out, by men on the one side, but also by beautiful and popular women. So their complaints is a kind of revenge based on long-term frustration. Popular women are used to be "run after" and be told sexually implicit or explicit remarks. Unpopular ones are not and feel offended when they do at work, esp. when they feel that they don't have the choice, because they lack experience in dealing with men and are more easily hurt due to their low self-esteem.

[Minty]

Same observation here.
Exactly. That's why my original question was : "Are sexual discrimination laws for ugly women", because they feel left out, by men on the one side, but also by beautiful and popular women. So their complaints is a kind of revenge based on long-term frustration. Popular women are used to be "run after" and be told sexually implicit or explicit remarks. Unpopular ones are not and feel offended when they do at work, esp. when they feel that they don't have the choice, because they lack experience in dealing with men and are more easily hurt due to their low self-esteem.

Once again you are continuing confusing me, so I ask again.

Hmm I am a bit confused here, your title says sexual harassment, but now you are talking about sexual discriminations, aren't they different things?

[Maciamo]

Minty, they both are feminist issues, different but related.

[Minty]

I just want to adress one point concerning sexual harrasment. In public in general, like tram, buses, metro, cinemas, clubs and many such other public places a man is very careful about touching, even by accident, a strange woman. I know I am. In club/bars for example a man may try to come and pik up a lady...but he will not touch her unless he feels he has consent...and even if he does happen to brush aside her by accident he will apologize in a manner to make it clear that it was an accident. However, if a woman touches a strange man by accident she will not go to the same lengths...and the man won't even bother to expect an apology or explanation. Women take more liberty in such things. For example in clubs i always remember girls walkin past me and having no trouble or second thoughts putting their hands on my shoulder to signal me to move by or what. I think women have much freedom in this sense.

Actually I always apologise if I accidentally touch people in public , male or female, except if they are little children and they don't watch where they are going and bump right into me, it happens from time to time in hypermarkets, I just look at them and wave my finger and say "non, non"

Whenever somebody bumps into me whether it is men or women, they apologise. I asked my husband about his experience as a man, he says yes if women accidentally touch or bump into him they apologize. Maybe different men have different experiences or are Belgian people's behaviour different from French?

[Minty]

Minty, they both are feminist issues, different but related.

Ok right, then when I disagree with the ugly, I mean for sexual harassment laws only, because sexual discrimination laws are being used by the ugly due to their jealousy towards the beauties actually does make sense.

[Minty]

A lot of women complain about having men being shallow and judging on looks and what not...but women do the same. I remember in school especially girls were the ones that left other girls out of their groups because they were not cute enough or what not...or they wouldn't invite certain people to their parties because they weren't popular enough and so forth. Even more so there are so many women out there who use their looks to their advantage. They just smile at some poor guy and get their way...oh buy a me a drink ? How many times i have heard some girls say this. I find it hypocritical that on one side u degrate yourself based on your look and then if in an another occasion it doesn't work out you complain about men being shallow and preferring beauty and what not.

I wrote this in another thread but I will reuse what I wrote again here:
If I am to tell you I don't label people on how they dress I would be a lying. When you see a worn, seedy person with messy hair walking in town, you mechanically categorise him, file him away under a particular title or heading. I believe this is the nature of human nature; the nature to judge the book by its cover.
It's doleful really, that we do this. We, as human beings, live on an exceedingly surface foundation for day-to-day life. Seldom do we dig to what is under the skin as many human relationships rarely turn near enough for one to do so.
I am indictable of labelling people by how they dress, stereotyping, categorising. I am afraid it is very hard not do label people by their cover because I believe it physiologically impossible to do so.
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New comments:
I actually don't have a problem with men liking beautiful women, I like to look at beautiful women too, and they are such a work of art. But I like the law there to protect women out there who truly have been discriminated against of not able to get jobs because the industry favours men, or in the sexual harassment case if it is just a smile, wink and praise it's not so bad, but in some cases the men go over that and it is scary and uncomfortable.

[Minty]

You don't need to be beautiful/handsome to be sexy. These are two very different things. Likewise not all (not even most) beautiful people are sexy. For instance, a very beautiful woman that is too cold and serious, doesn't care about clothing and doesn't wear make-up may not be sexy. Sexisness is more about one's will to arouse other people. It's in the mind and in the style, not really in the physical beauty.

I agree that if a woman don't like sex and acts serious all day with no effort to keep her weight down is not sexy or attractive. However some women just don't have the sex appeal, a good comparison is Princess Diana versus Princess Anne. They both do a lot of charities, but Princess Diana was by far more popular than Princess Anne.

However there are ugly or unpopular people with high sex drive, my husband told me that he had colleagues who couldn't get girlfriends because they are not popular and cool enough, and they often pay for prostitution.

Hmmm so men associate women who wear make up, mini skirts, low cut dresses that show cleavages...etc as somebody who has high sex drives?

Because I think there are unattractive ladies, who like sex too, but they are not necessarily able to overcome their weight problem, or if they are born with an unattractive face they are kind of stuck with it, not everybody can afford plastic surgeries. I know some women who like to go clubbing but they are not attractive but they still like to go and try to get men there.

[Ma Cherie]

Sexual harassment laws are for women who are frustrated because they're not attractive enough and they're jealous of women who are more attractive because they are getting attention? I guess this issue is worth looking into, but I'm having hard time believing this. But anywho I guess that's just me.

I was under the impression that sexual harassment laws were to protect women from unwanted sexual treatment.