Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

[Ike]

The UN broke up cultures of yugoslavia because they did not want to be together as a nation, does Spain need to go into the blood bath of that balkan war or have they the brains to go the czech/slovakia way.

There was no proper plebiscite, and it was done against the international and Yugoslav law. That's one of the main reasons the war started in the first place.

[Carlos]

Myth: The 1714 Catalonia lost its independence: it was conquered by Spain and the Catalan institutions were abolished.


Fact: Before 1700 Catalonia was not independent but was a territory of their own institutions integrated into the Spanish Crown for centuries.


That year, King Charles II (of Spain, including Catalonia) died childless and began a war of succession to the throne (not Civil sovereignty) between two candidates: Philip of Anjou, French and Charles of Habsburg-German-. In all there were territories of the Crown and other supporters of a candidate.


Catalan institutions first swore allegiance to Philip of Anjou (Parliament of 14 January 1702, in Barcelona), but after an Anglo-Dutch fleet in favor of Charles landed in the river Besos (25 August 1705) Barcelona won and the indifference of the population. On October 16, the Catalan institutions were recognizing Charles as king of Spain.


Finally, the war ended with the resignation of Charles to the throne (because it had been called Holy Roman Emperor) and Philip V had no opposition: he amnestied the leaders of the revolt austracista but abolished Catalan institutions, creating a state centralized in imitation of France at that time.


Institutions were estamentales eighteenth century, typical of feudalism: representing the aristocracy, the bourgeoisie and the high clergy. Argued, therefore, the interests of those. There was not a Parliament as we know today, as it is popular and national sovereignty back items not known at the time of the facts.


Another myth


"Spain and France divided Catalonia as war booty. Therefore Northern Catalonia is under French oppression"


It's not just a myth, but a falsehood as a grand piano, but those big.


There were no spoils of war, simply because Catalonia lost no war, nor Spain won any battle at that time.


In the seventeenth century, there were several wars between France (strong, with encouragement to expand) and Spain (in crisis after losing the war against Holland and England).


Consequence of this weakness on Hispanic Corona was losing territories for France: So, by the Treaty of the Pyrenees (1659), France is not only Roussillon, but also Artois (north of France, passing Calais), strategic points in Flanders and Luxembourg, etc.. Previously, France was also Alsace, Lorraine, Franche Cash, etc..


In short: it was the expansionism of France, taking advantage of the weakness of that moment of Hispanic Corona as France scraped Roussillon, among other territories much more strategic and important Roussillon.

[Carlos]

Philip V banned the Catalan and Spanish imposed


Many holes are the Manipulated History of Catalonia.


The "Official History" found in the manuals High School, and informative books (1) show that Spanish Catalonia was imposed by a premeditated plan by calling for denationalization of Catalonia, and cite the example and start Decree New Plan of 1716, Philip V, who prohibited the use of Catalan.


Another myth. First, it did not prohibit the use of Catalan, but the Latin in the High Court. And secondly, the process of Castilianisation unbootable or strengthened in 1716, but it is a gradual process and not imposed started much earlier, in 1400, coinciding with the enthronement of Tratàmara, and continued slowly for other reasons.





So, first, if you read the Decree of Nueva Planta only found one article referring to the language: Article 5 which states: "The Causes of the Real Audiencia be substantiated in Spanish tongue." And this sentence is the only reference to the language found throughout the famous Decree of Philip V.


From this we can highlight the following:


- Until then, the language of the Royal Court was Latin (rather than Catalan) (notes 3, 4 and 5), so, as noted Macelo Capdeferro "as available is not discriminatory with the Catalan language, fear the simple Reason that, until entonces, las causas de la Real Audiencia in habian sustanciado in Latin tongue. Latino habitat is mantenido tongue as official diplomatic cancilleresca, legal and scientific. "


- This article refers only to the Royal Tribunal, an administrative body (so to speak, and simplifying, as "jutgats" today). Not prohibit their language in cultural, literary, economic, legal, family, etc..


- Fifty years later, it had issued orders specifically prohibiting the use of Latin (Latin again!) To the High Court, as the Orders dated 7 June 1768 and 11 January 1770 ( 5) which demonstrates the use of Latin in the High Court in 1716 even after the decree of Philip V, and the lack of realization of this Decree (required by the issuance of these orders explicitly prohibiting fifty years later Latin).




Second, we observe that the introduction of Spanish in Catalonia does not begin in 1716, but it is a gradual process that began with the enthronement of Trastàmara long before the fifteenth century, and continue with the absence of the Court in Barcelona (Riquer points to this absence as the cause of the Spanish Main) (6), and expanded the use of the printing press, the force of the literary market (largest Spanish than Catalan , etc.) ... Riquer also invokes other factors such as the conversion of the Spanish company in Italy, medievalism, lackluster life of the Catalan universities, own intrinsic character of Catalan humanism, etc..


And this process continued in the fifteenth century, the progressive Catalan bilingualism of many writers (William Torroella, Enrique de Villena, Frances Alegre, Romeo Llull Narcissus Vinyoles Fonollar Bernat Joan Ribelles Franks Moner Joan Escriva) and almost all of the Spanish Boscan, Timoneda, Ferrando Heredia, Milan, etc..


As currently scientists: they write in English so that their investigations have the widest possible dissemination.


That is the situation we find ourselves before the Decree of 1716 is already a strong presence of Spanish, a process that did not occur uniformly, nor imposed from the outside, but is explained by Catalan internal factors of order.


And that concludes the teacher as well Peña Díaz (UAB), during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries there was not any project Castilianising directed from the monarchy, but other causes were essentially internal, such as the economic motivations of printers books (which sold more copies printed in Spanish), the desire of the authors of the books reach a wider audience, and administrative ease. In addition, considering that the penetration level language was heavily influenced by social class


Well this is not explained to the children and young students from Catalonia. They were only tells a partial and consciously manipulated History (Spanish taxation, wars, invasions, etc.), full of hatred and desire for revenge, which creates confusion in our youth.

[Carlos]

Nationalism is crazy: St. Teresa of Jesus was also Catalan, Teresa de Cardona

Attachment 5992

This is no joke. The Catalan Government should control the histrionic ravings of some of its spokesmen authorized unless you want to turn your utopian and charred 'right to decide' in a joke next to a circus than any ideological claim. The scholar and researcher Jordi Bilbeny, teacher and lecturer of some summer courses subsidized by Artur Mas, and jumped to the front pages of the national media for his bizarre theories about the origin 'unknown' of Miguel de Cervantes Christopher Columbus himself, strikes again for the umpteenth time reinventing the story of one of the universal symbols of the Catholic Church: St. Teresa of Jesus.


Who was Saint Teresa of Jesus?


Teresa de Cepeda y Ahumada, better known by the name of Santa Teresa de Jesus or simply Teresa of Avila (Avila, March 28, 1515 - Alba de Tormes, October 4, 1582) was a nun, Doctor of the Catholic Church , Spanish mystic and writer, founder of the Discalced Carmelites, a branch of the Order of Our Lady of Mount Carmel (or Carmelites).


Her name was Teresa Sanchez Cepeda Davila y Ahumada, although generally used the name of Teresa de Ahumada until reform began and renamed the mystic Teresa de Jesus.


Teresa was beatified in 1614 by Pope Paul V, and included among the holy by Gregory XV on March 12, 1622, was appointed (1627) to patroness of Spain by Urban VIII. In 1626 the Cortes de Castilla was named co-patron of the Kingdoms of Spain, but supporters of St. James managed to revoke the agreement. She was appointed Honorary Doctor at the University of Salamanca and later was appointed patron of writers.


In 1970 he became (along with St. Catherine of Siena) the first woman elevated by the Catholic Church to the status of Doctor of the Church, under Pope Paul VI. The Catholic Church celebrates his feast on October 15.


St. Teresa of Jesus was Catalan


"There is documentation confirming that St. Teresa was Teresa Enriquez de Cardona, abbess of the monastery of Pedralbes in Barcelona. Shortly be published studies that prove this theory that without further, may seem like a slapstick. But it is very serious. In Catalonia there were great artists and writers, but has committed adultery with a history-made laws. Tirant is recognized and then ... there was nothing? was not there more writers? can not be. Ditto with the discovery of America.? Fair when America was discovered, the Catalan naval power disappears? And Castile creates out of nothing? do overnight? makes no sense. With pictures Renaissance's the same: you can hide the author but not the landscape that represent and now it is showing that it is authors who were born and worked in Catalonia and not in Italy that was part of Aragon ".


Jordi Bilbeny goes further to attribute the 'official' story the result of manipulation orchestrated from the Castilian court: "I speak of a historicidio or cultural genocide. All we were left with the topic about the sixteenth century. Y is normal, our teachers from universities Franco until recently. now can view documents and investigate. When I ask ... I can introduce evidence more than six hours of information collected ".


Christopher Columbus was Catalan, Miguel de Cervantes was Catalan. Santa Teresa was Catalan. All eyes are now on the new revelation that can change the course of world history: the true origin of Jesus Christ.



http://www.mediterraneodigital.com/p...e-cardona.html

[Knovas]

¿Where are you getting this crazy stuff from?

First of all, I did not mention it, but the supposed myths they list there are not invented by the Catalan nationalists, but nationalists like you instead.

The Catalans don't say they lost their independence, but their full autonomy when the Catalan Constitutions were forbidden as I explained you three times. Indeed, there's absolutely no difference in that context between full autonomy and independence...but if you feel happy fooling yourself, then much better for you lol.

The rest of the "myths" (well, created myths would be correct), really crack me up. I won't spend more time debunking this crap, just encourage everyone looking forward for laughs to read it. I wonder how is it possible you still use information from a site which claims Spain is 2000 years old. Definitely one of the funniest things I've ever read XD

Sta Teresa Catalan? never heard about this so if you pretend to show this is a popular lie in Catalonia, I'm afraid you missed the shot.

As for Cervantes and Columbus, I repeat, just THEORIES, not facts. ¿Are you afraid for instance that Columbus could have been Catalan origin? ¿What's wrong with it? Anyways, what is accepted until date is that he wasn't even Castillian, but Genoese (probably, no definite proof). So I don't see why are you so worried about something most Catalans don't care.

You better treat your hate and start posting some veridic data. If not possible, find another playground or this discussion will be probably moved to the humor section.

[Carlos]

I've put the link says a nationalist.
St. Teresa of Avila was Catalan lol


-----------o----------


Remember to read articles on the Internet Spain with the title: Myths and Lies of Catalan nationalism

[Knovas]

The link is from ultra-nationalist Spanish press. Reliable info LOL.

Remember: Spain is 2000 years old

[Carlos]

^^
Do not try to confuse our foreign friends Catalan nationalist manipulation of realcionar Spain with Spanish fascism or feeling of being fascist that is typical of Catalan nationalism argument to discredit the rest of his own country, ridiculous? really is. Spain is a democratic country belongs to the EU and feel Spanish is not synonymous with fascist Catalan nationalists claim the tactical rather I would say were to look to themselves to see who really is the Fascist.


Greetings from here to the great European nations with great inventors, great artists, writers, scientists and many other celebrities who often have the great European nations, a greeting from Spain.


There are places that to a lack of personalities intend to steal them their own country and steal his identity, is the most ridiculous thing you ever see in the history of Europe.




There are one hundred of link of any ideology who have published the barbarity of the "theories" that nationalists was Teresa Cervantes Catalan or etc.



http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Bilbeny

Jordi Bilbeny This is the author of the "theories" the press that echoes their atrocities can be of any political nature but that does not change the reality and facts of the atrocities they are saying.

You realize Knovas as lies have very short legs.

[Knovas]

The text says HIS THESIS. Not facts.

So again, the only one who tries (and fails) to confuse, that is you and your pitiful sources. You better take a look at the mirror to understand what a lie is.

[Carlos]

How will they be made ​​if they are lies? There are the data and all information, our foreign friends know to draw their own conclusions.

[Carlos]

2:16 minutes

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_Espot

In this video you see the reaction of other sectarian nationalist policy in a televised debate his argument is violently yelling at his interlocutor: Shut up! typical totalitarian doctrines.

[Knovas]

I see you keep twisting things, so I am going to explain you how it works:

When there's no definite proof about something, then the only possible way is making theories. That simple, and this should be taken as what it is: not a fact, but a possibility, even if sometimes remote.

There are important clues which seem to indicate Cervantes was born in Alcalá, but also regarding his surnames there's some kind of connection with Catalonia, specially his second surname (Saavedra). That could be distant, the fact is we don't know it for sure. Anyways, he was probably from Alcalá, ok it's alright no problem, take it easy. Columbus is a lot more complex, there are less historical records confirming his origins, so it is normal many different scholars proposed their views. A very logical thing you don't accept simply because you hate the possibility he could have been Catalan. Or you pretend to know more than anyone? why are you so worried about something the Catalans don't care? Well, it's pretty obvious...

As for Espot, he is just ONE Catalan, and the other guy was justifying the murder of President Companys. Note he was elected for president in 1932 by the vast majority of the Catalans, and the fascists from Spain killed him. No one was a saint during that time, doesn't matter if Europe or the Spanish State, the historical context was very complex. So instead of criticizing the two commentators, you prefer to complain about the Catalan one when both commit mistakes. Nice way to affirm your temperance.

In short: biased, ignorant regarding the historical context and, for sure, malicious as usual.

Carlos aka "The Democrat". ***** please

[Noman]

Ah, carlos was banned. And I was just to send him a PM about my ancestor who fought alongside guido fawkes. Well, you can only go so far with politics on a forums I guess.

Personally I think split up EU, split up spain and france and close all borders and try to have self sufficent non-globalized industry is the only way to make a decent planet. The more you unite governments the more you divide people and allow leeches to dominate. But I understand where he is coming from, it's like 200 years too late though, and in spite of what peopel say large central authority just don't work under democracy. Only worked for US while the big enemy of soviets was around to keep people scared. Soviets weren't really scared of US and so their government flunkies just stuffed their pockets like mad, while a true king would have at least taken care of the health of the country above all stuff. After all, he already owns everything, in any real sense!

Not only has spanish dominance came and gone, dutch dominance came and went, english came and went, United States came and went. Now we are at that worst nightmare, german dominance in west and chinese in east. Like if the United States were designed by Germany in the west and mines of moria in the east.

And I do get annoyed when people try to take ownership of historical figures (or even entire civilizations!) but no one takes it seriously. If people want to talk about black cleopatra, first russian on the moon and catalan/templar columbus more power to them.

EDIT: Something my dad once told me. Never be a sore winner. Best advice you could give someone.

[Knovas]

Great demonstration in Catalonia: a huge human chain from South to North (400km) in favor of independence.

Conservative estimates say 1.6 million people joined the event across the territory, being Barcelona the place with more participants (0.5 million aprox).

AWESOME

[FBS]

Interesting article: http://www.helpcatalonia.cat/2011/10..._273235722#%21

I didn't know.

[Riccardo]

I was impressed by the number of Independentist "Senyera" I've seen there this summer, much more than last years. I also experienced some contradictions, like Catalan independentists celebrating Spain's victories in football. I was kinda confused.

[Carlos]

Hello, how are you, how's it going. Is there some progress? lol

[Carlos]

I believe the PP coming to power is the best that can happen to Spain at the moment. A coalition PP-CiU in Cataluña is also the most interesting solution considering the economic disaster. On another hand, the PP is unlikely to get financial balance corrected in the coming years, and I believe there'll be political rioting when the government will have to plunder the Catalans pockets again. Fudder for nationalists...

Make no mistake, the government loots the pockets of all Spaniards, and do not forget the autonomous governments also plunder the pockets of citizens in their own regions, after blaming the central government.

[Carlos]

I was impressed by the number of Independentist "Senyera" I've seen there this summer, much more than last years. I also experienced some contradictions, like Catalan independentists celebrating Spain's victories in football. I was kinda confused.

The "Catalan flag" Do not be confused Catalan is the official flag of a lifetime, which leads the star is invented and used by regionalists nationalists who are not all Catalans, do not forget. It was seen in many balconies that flag with the star, but how many balconies had no flag? many more, I do not understand why it is called surrealism or surreal idiocy.

[Carlos]

Serve as a button. In this photograph of a town in Catalonia can be seen that in a balcony there hung a banner of Republican Spain, there is not a single flag in the rest of balcony, what does a flag on a balcony if there are many more balconies no flag?

PD: Myself photo.

[LeBrok]

Serve as a button. In this photograph of a town in Catalonia can be seen that in a balcony there hung a banner of Republican Spain, there is not a single flag in the rest of balcony, what does a flag on a balcony if there are many more balconies no flag?

PD: Myself photo.

Perhaps this building is occupy by emigrants?

[Carlos]

Perhaps this building is occupy by emigrants?

Immigrants do not hang from balconies Spanish Republican flags. I imagine it will be a native who has uploaded a republican flag.

[Knovas]

Most of my friends are in favor of independence, yet just a few of us have a flag in the blacony (and mine is just a normal Senyera).

Carlos desperately tries to fool himself counting flags. Don't ask him to count real votes, he may suffer from a heart attack.

[Carlos]

Hello, how are you and how is everything? know that I wish you all the best for the future. A strong fraternal embrace.

[Melancon]

What a shame, a waste of a beautiful nation (Spain), only for it to be sub-divided into little segments/provinces.

Don't worry; I am sure there will be some unity in the Iberian peninsula, whether or not Catalonia (or even the Basque country) gets independence. It won't happen anytime soon, obviously. But the reason for this is mainly that the Spanish culture and the Spanish name (Spain) are losing it's hold. Catalans are an Aragonese people, related to Southern French Occitans. At the time Catalonia was colonized by Spain, it had it's own language and culture but very few people. (less than 1 million) but now it has 7.5 million people.


It has already been hypothesized that Portugal may eventually become annexed and immersed into Spain. Inferior cultures will always die out, and stronger, healthier cultures will prevail and take their place. It's just the rule of the game.


Empires and cultures always die only to be taken by better or stronger ones. It's like natural selection. I am afraid I may have to be biased here; and say that Spain has never really been that much of a country with a strong, healthy culture, or sense of unity. Compared to France or the UK; Spain has never been an all-together country, and it does seem like it is losing it's glue.