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Thread: Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post

    It has already been hypothesized that Portugal may eventually become annexed and immersed into Spain. Inferior cultures will always die out, and stronger, healthier cultures will prevail and take their place. It's just the rule of the game.
    Watch out how you verse your thoughts, or you might have a war on your hand on Eupedia. It is not about culture per se but about technological superiority. Better guns, faster horses, more ammo, better trained soldiers. Otherwise you need to explain which religion, food, music, fashion, language are better. All the aspects of culture.


    Empires and cultures always die only to be taken by better or stronger ones. It's like natural selection.
    Not necessarily, though often true. There was no one technologically and culturally more sophisticated than Roman empire, and yet it collapsed. Mostly due to climatic cooling, failed crops, pagues, lower population and strong migratory movements of barbaric tribes (who couldn't even read). Followed by Dark Ages. No "superior" culture won with Rome and took its place.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Watch out how you verse your thoughts, or you might have a war on your hand on Eupedia. It is not about culture per se but about technological superiority. Better guns, faster horses, more ammo, better trained soldiers. Otherwise you need to explain which religion, food, music, fashion, language are better. All the aspects of culture.


    Not necessarily, though often true. There was no one technologically and culturally more sophisticated than Roman empire, and yet it collapsed. Mostly due to climatic cooling, failed crops, pagues, lower population and strong migratory movements of barbaric tribes (who couldn't even read). Followed by Dark Ages. No "superior" culture won with Rome and took its place.
    Actually, there were superior nations that took the place of Rome. You have to argue that France and Italy seem to be the strongest of them.

    There is another alternative that Portugal could even take over Spain. But it seems right now, that this is much less likely. If I recall correctly, there was a time when Portugal was actually once unified under Spain; in the 16th or 17th century; but this did not last long and the Portuguese managed to get independence again. Very little known fact.

    The Byzantine Empire was a really big and strong successful Empire; but it collapsed under the influence of invading Ottomans who were just too strong for Greco-Roman Emperors to fight off.

    Personally, I've always believed Spain has had one of the most brutal and controversial histories, in it's creation. This is where it's nationalism comes at a fault. I feel that it is a controversial nation that expects every culture in Iberia to conform to the Spanish culture; while it also has had poor respect for it's autonomous communities and distinct cultures that encompass it. Many Spaniards like Catalans, Basques and even Galicians feel resentment towards Spain. And it is because they feel that they are not represented fairly; economically and culturally, while strictly expecting to be Spanish. A much similar nation in analogy would be the former Yugoslavia. If Spain can manage to treat it's citizens more fairly, then maybe there would not be so much internal tensions; as we saw in Yugoslavia.

    Personally I believe that Spain's future does not look good at all, and it will take a lot of effort for Madrid to restore it to a healthy, unified, prosperous nation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Actually, there were superior nations that took the place of Rome. You have to argue that France and Italy seem to be the strongest of them.

    .
    Not mentioning that France and Italy had nothing to do with Rome collapse and showed up on map of Europe hundreds years later. In this case you can argue that USA took place of Rome as a leader of the world. Still has nothing to do with your conclusion:
    Empires and cultures always die only to be taken by better or stronger ones. It's like natural selection

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Actually, there were superior nations that took the place of Rome. You have to argue that France and Italy seem to be the strongest of them.

    There is another alternative that Portugal could even take over Spain. But it seems right now, that this is much less likely. If I recall correctly, there was a time when Portugal was actually once unified under Spain; in the 16th or 17th century; but this did not last long and the Portuguese managed to get independence again. Very little known fact.

    The Byzantine Empire was a really big and strong successful Empire; but it collapsed under the influence of invading Ottomans who were just too strong for Greco-Roman Emperors to fight off.

    Personally, I've always believed Spain has had one of the most brutal and controversial histories, in it's creation. This is where it's nationalism comes at a fault. I feel that it is a controversial nation that expects every culture in Iberia to conform to the Spanish culture; while it also has had poor respect for it's autonomous communities and distinct cultures that encompass it. Many Spaniards like Catalans, Basques and even Galicians feel resentment towards Spain. And it is because they feel that they are not represented fairly; economically and culturally, while strictly expecting to be Spanish. A much similar nation in analogy would be the former Yugoslavia. If Spain can manage to treat it's citizens more fairly, then maybe there would not be so much internal tensions; as we saw in Yugoslavia.

    Personally I believe that Spain's future does not look good at all, and it will take a lot of effort for Madrid to restore it to a healthy, unified, prosperous nation.



    I have to agree with your observation that stronger cultures absorb the weaker ones. But the process of assimilation is very long if it happens naturally. Look at Rome! Italic peninsula had over 10 different ethnic groups at the time of Rome. They are all gone now. Had Rome lasted for another 300 years all Balkans would have been proud Latins now. So the element of time is very important.
    That's the law of nature and nothing can stop it.
    Look at English culture now! No matter how proud a German or a French is they have to learn English to function in the world. If this process continuous for a thousand years they will all speak English.
    I thought that Iberic peninsula was an place of tranquility. Obviously I was wrong!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Not mentioning that France and Italy had nothing to do with Rome collapse and showed up on map of Europe hundreds years later. In this case you can argue that USA took place of Rome as a leader of the world. Still has nothing to do with your conclusion:
    Rome had a plague in the 5th century.
    In dominant cultures population size is crucial.
    Hellenes had the most developed culture of the antiquity but they never rose to dominance!
    They lacked the manpower.
    Anglo-Sakson culture will also die if the population numbers go down.
    Nothing lives for ever in this world.

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    Just a few remarks:

    - It is incorrect to say that Catalans are an Aragonese people. What was called "The Crown Of Aragón" included different entities, for instance, the Kingdom of Aragón and the Principate of Catalonia among others. All those territories were in fact independent states with different laws, and in the case of Catalonia and Aragón, there was not even a common language: Aragonese is still a language today (almost extinct, though), while Catalan, of course, is Catalan. One can say that the Crown of Aragón was some sort of confederation of states with a common King, with the peculiarity that the royalty in question could not affect the regional laws.

    - Linked to the former point, "Spain" never colonized Catalonia, but Castille. Spain as a national concept exists only since 1812. The whole Crown of Aragón and Castille became united as a single Crown (not to be confused with kingdom) when Isabel and Fernando got married. This marriage did not implicate uniformity at first, this only came with Felipe V (French origin, by the way), whose ideal was, of course, absolutism. Catalans supported the Habsburg Dinasty hoping to preserve their privileges, which were in serious danger considering what the French government model was at that time. The rest is a well known fact: Catalans were brave but it wasn't enough to defeat the Bourbonic army.

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    Hello Knovas! how are you?, I hope well, I could not get before, work too much, but I've tended in thinking all this time, I hope you do everything right especially on labor issues, because our country is going through a tough time and it is when we have to struggle. Greetings and a very big hug.


    In a kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king. Spain will not fall into provocations few weak able to dominate the electorate like sheep. Spain is one of the largest nations that has given mankind a nation that has changed the course of humanity. They have some years been a bit silly for having distracted, regionalist nationalism from democracy have inhibited symbols and even the language, Zapatero spent his entire government saying in this country, to say "in Spain" yes indeed regionalist nationalism had a plan if one day the system privileges just for their benefit and to the detriment of themselves, but this vile skirmish has made us wake up and can now recover without symbols and language that relate to retrograde ideologies.

    !VIVA ESPAÑA!

    España es mucha España.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Just a few remarks:

    - It is incorrect to say that Catalans are an Aragonese people. What was called "The Crown Of Aragón" included different entities, for instance, the Kingdom of Aragón and the Principate of Catalonia among others. All those territories were in fact independent states with different laws, and in the case of Catalonia and Aragón, there was not even a common language: Aragonese is still a language today (almost extinct, though), while Catalan, of course, is Catalan. One can say that the Crown of Aragón was some sort of confederation of states with a common King, with the peculiarity that the royalty in question could not affect the regional laws.

    - Linked to the former point, "Spain" never colonized Catalonia, but Castille. Spain as a national concept exists only since 1812. The whole Crown of Aragón and Castille became united as a single Crown (not to be confused with kingdom) when Isabel and Fernando got married. This marriage did not implicate uniformity at first, this only came with Felipe V (French origin, by the way), whose ideal was, of course, absolutism. Catalans supported the Habsburg Dinasty hoping to preserve their privileges, which were in serious danger considering what the French government model was at that time. The rest is a well known fact: Catalans were brave but it wasn't enough to defeat the Bourbonic army.
    I've known this before. Although I still believe that Aragonese and Catalonians are the same people.

    The Aragonese of Aragon are not the real Aragonese though. And neither is the language. (it is actually a dialect of Aragonese that was mixed with Mozarabic, it was taken by Moors and Sephardic Jews who were expelled into the region by the Castillian aristocracy) the real Aragonese language is extinct; and/or was more related to Catalan. If you observe the "Aragonese language" it is basically a language related more to Spanish and Portuguese, than to Catalonian, Gascon or Occitan. And it actually has tiny fragments of Arabic words in it. It is a mongrelized (mixed) dialect and is not the real Aragonese language. It is basically a dialect of Castillian (Spanish) mixed with Arabic; the only reason it is called "Aragonese" is because its speakers inhabit the region of Aragon. Research this for yourself.

    The only two other languages that are related to Catalan are Occitan and the nearly-extinct Gascon. The Catalonian people are the real Aragonese. (I actually read somewhere that the origin of the name "Catalonia" was a misnomer, and has a Germanic/Latin origin. Unfortunately, I don't know if this is true. But the etymology of Catalan and Catalonia is unknown.)

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    You know, here is something some people here may want to consider: I was actually having a chat with a man from Madrid about two days ago; and he was indifferent to Catalonia splitting from Spain. He admitted to me that he thinks they should have a polling referendum and be allowed to decide. He said he has Catalan friends; and even if Catalonia were to split, he would still keep in touch with them and visit them regardless of differing nationalities.

    Wonder if this represents the majority of Spaniards. Maybe it is their government that is harsh. He was from Madrid but admitted that Spain had a bad economy; and told me that he did not like the Spanish government.

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    Privileges, decades, centuries of finished and what privileges the privileged regions have shown? have nothing for nothing, they are not even capable of having an airline, corruption butt, no, no, no, no way, all that is over.

    Already many Spanish scholars and historians from around the world have begun to speak and pulling them by the ears regionalist nationalism to manipulate history. This manipulation of history and tired and does not fool anyone in the world, only deceive themselves. You can not pretend to be or to have been what is not nor has been.


    Pd: Knvs regards I love you.

    I understand that the regionalist nationalism is making a ridiculous spectacle and is a disgrace and an international scandal image and they are giving all the corruption they have, without the amorality of attacking their own country.


    But do not worry everything is under control. A few regionalist political fools, madmen and surrealistic not get away with Spain.

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    @ Melancon

    The modern aragonese language depending on the region is more similar to Catalan or Castilian. But it is still considered a different language. You can translate this yourself: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_aragon%C3%A9s

    At the end of the day, all latin languages are dialects, so it is normal to find transitional elements between some languages, which doesn't necessarily mean they should be grouped.

    Of course it is called Aragonese because it is there where it is found. The word Aragón comes from Basque/Euskera, so obviously a latin language doesn't match with this.

    And I don't think it is correct to say that the original people of Aragón were Catalans, nor the other way around. The original people in both territories were non indoeuropean speakers who were influenced by Romans (and previously by Celts who failed to impose their language), and at some point, the latin language started to change (the same as in other parts of Iberia and Europe). That's what really makes sense as we have many examples of it.

    What is true is the real mistery concerning the origin of the word "Catalonia". Probably you read something about Otger Cataló.

    Finally, I know not all the people in Madrid is like Carlos. But still there's too much people like him, and specially the politicians. So it is better for us to keep going on with the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    @ Melancon

    The modern aragonese language depending on the region is more similar to Catalan or Castilian. But it is still considered a different language. You can translate this yourself: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_aragon%C3%A9s

    At the end of the day, all latin languages are dialects, so it is normal to find transitional elements between some languages, which doesn't necessarily mean they should be grouped.

    Of course it is called Aragonese because it is there where it is found. The word Aragón comes from Basque/Euskera, so obviously a latin language doesn't match with this.

    And I don't think it is correct to say that the original people of Aragón were Catalans, nor the other way around. The original people in both territories were non indoeuropean speakers who were influenced by Romans (and previously by Celts who failed to impose their language), and at some point, the latin language started to change (the same as in other parts of Iberia and Europe). That's what really makes sense as we have many examples of it.

    What is true is the real mistery concerning the origin of the word "Catalonia". Probably you read something about Otger Cataló.

    Finally, I know not all the people in Madrid is like Carlos. But still there's too much people like him, and specially the politicians. So it is better for us to keep going on with the process.
    Hi,

    I meant to point you in the direction of this ("Aragonese") language:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navarro-Aragonese

    It is apparent that it went extinct by the 16th century. This one was the "original".

    The modern "Aragonese" language that exists today in Aragon; actually seems to derive itself from Castillian and a mix of Moorish Arabic. From what I have read. Not anything related to the original (now extinct) Aragonese (Navarro-Aragonese), Gascon, Catalonian, Occitan language family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Hello Knovas! how are you?, I hope well, I could not get before, work too much, but I've tended in thinking all this time, I hope you do everything right especially on labor issues, because our country is going through a tough time and it is when we have to struggle. Greetings and a very big hug.


    In a kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king. Spain will not fall into provocations few weak able to dominate the electorate like sheep. Spain is one of the largest nations that has given mankind a nation that has changed the course of humanity. They have some years been a bit silly for having distracted, regionalist nationalism from democracy have inhibited symbols and even the language, Zapatero spent his entire government saying in this country, to say "in Spain" yes indeed regionalist nationalism had a plan if one day the system privileges just for their benefit and to the detriment of themselves, but this vile skirmish has made us wake up and can now recover without symbols and language that relate to retrograde ideologies.

    !VIVA ESPAÑA!

    España es mucha España.
    Clearly the issue is with the castilian cortes in not being subservient to their king Fernando.
    You know the castilian queen isabella died over a decade before the catalonian king Fernando died.
    The Castilian cortes did not obey the king, they even tried to prevent his marriage to a navaresse princess.

    If the castilian cortes did the correct procedure as with other courts in Europe, then the capital would have been Barcelona and the language of Spain should have be catalonian . But this is not the case, as the castilian did not want to play the game, so too now, the catalonians do not want to play the game. This is fair , don't you agree?

    best is a seperation , the castilian must realise they cannot have everything they want both past and present
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    To start Fernando was not Catalan. Please do not manipulate the history that is very ugly. And moreover Queen Isabella of Castile Catalan peasantry freed exclavitud to which they were subjected by the Catalan nobility. The Castelana expasión, the mentality is not comparable to the small Catalan fact the Castilian factor acquires dimensions that can not be compared Catalan factor. I think you have no perception of reality. The current problems are due solely to a claim by regionalist nationalism sector in perpetuating the system of privileges to another segment of their region regionalist nationalism lives in fantasy and believe they are a great European nation to the level of Germany, Italy or even Spain itself could say they are paranoid. Yes, have implemented a social engineering with their constituents and do what they want with them, but Spain is no longer afraid, for democracy achieved the regionalist nationalism inhibit our symbols, including language, but now we're recovering from this subrealismo and recuperandon our symbols, we are regaining freedom, remember what the origins of the ridiculous import regionalist nationalist doctrine established in these two Spanish regions within their means in the end is madness are.

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    Enkvist: "Catalonia is an example of how education can be used for evil purposes: the nationalist indoctrination"

    While receiving twentieth Tolerance Award, the Spanish scholar, essayist and educator Swedish appeals to "recover the value of truth" versus "manipulation" of nationalism. Enkvist charge against nationalism for trying to "condition thought" and "jeopardize the proper functioning of democracy."

    The Spanish scholar, essayist and educator Swedish Inger Enkvist denounced Friday that "Catalonia is an example of how education can be used for evil purposes, for indoctrination" nationalist.


    This has positioned during reception twentieth Tolerance Award, awarded by the Association for Tolerance, which was held in a downtown hotel in Barcelona.


    Appeal to "recover the value of truth"


    Enkvist has appealed to teachers, journalists and politicians to "recover the value of truth" as a way to combat the "manipulation" being made by Catalan nationalism in areas such as humanities, language, literature and history.


    The educator said that this type of "lies", which also occur in other countries, is a kind of "intellectual and moral corruption." It has taken a few words of writer George Orwell to criticize nationalism for trying to "contaminate mental processes, ie condition thought", which "threatens the proper functioning of democracy."


    Review the mandatory immersion in Catalan


    In the ceremony of prize-where he recalled the allegation Enkvist in the regional parliament of Catalonia during the drafting of the Law on Education of Catalonia (LEC) - have also intervened Professor in Spanish language and literature Carmen Leal; Professor of English Mercè Vilarrubias; writer and philologist Pericay Xavier; and President of the Association for Tolerance, Eduardo Lopez-Dóriga.


    To award the prize to Enkvist, the jury highlighted her love of teaching with the conviction that the fundamental aspects of personality are forged in the early years. As well as his staunch defense of the teaching of languages ​​as a vehicle for the full development of the intellect, appearing opposite to the exclusion of Castilian as the language of the public education system in Catalonia.


    It takes over Victoria Prego


    Enkvist takes over from the journalist Victoria Prego, awarded in 2013. In the past, the prize has been awarded since 1995, went to Felix Shepherd, Regina Otaola, Xavier Pericay, Mingote Antonio Carlos Herrera, Mario Vargas Llosa, Rosa Díez, Arcadi Espada, Antonio Muñoz Molina, Iván Tubau, Fernando Savater, Felix de Azua, Gregorio Peces-Barba, Francesc de Carreras, Albert Boadella, enough is Enough! Baltasar Garzon, among others.

    https://laverdadofende.wordpress.com...-nacionalista/

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    So, it seems that we are getting closer to the Catalonian referendum on 9th November. Only about a week from now. Anyone wanna make any comments?

    What do you guys believe will happen? Will Catalonia stay with Spain; or will they get independence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    So, it seems that we are getting closer to the Catalonian referendum on 9th November. Only about a week from now. Anyone wanna make any comments?

    What do you guys believe will happen? Will Catalonia stay with Spain; or will they get independence?
    The distance should not make you understand how things really are. The 9N consultation has been suspended for being unconstitutional. So Arthur Mas has botched and aims to make a query without electoral roll and putting polls in libraries at a fish in a hallway in the toilet of a sex shop, a fudge consultation has also been prohibited by the government because of equal form is unconstitutional and does not guarantee the democratic conditions that citizens deserve. It would be advisable that these corrupt independentisas, the rulers would stop being ridiculous and quit trying to perpetuate the system of privileges to their region blackmailing the Spanish State with threats of independence, because in reality they are scared shitless and the last thing they wanted themselves be independent, it is all a political gimmick. On the other hand it is a common mistake to speak of España_Cataluña bilaterally, we are not talking about two states, remember that Catalonia is a region of Spain with a high level of corruption and nothing after centuries of unpriviledged have even been able to maintain carriers such as Spanair.

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    The ANC notes with yellow signs 'friends shops'

    The Catalan National Assemblea (ANC) not only conforms to the organization of demonstrations and collected signatures in favor of independence. Their activities go far beyond 9-N and edge, according to reports from traders, blackmail and extortion. Looking September 11 Barcelona toured the shops adjacent to the "V" and demanding the closure to "invite" the owners of the establishments to pay a contribution to "look" in their windows a sign of the ANC.

    The next step is to be the permanent identification of what "asamblearios" Carme Forcadell and Artur Mas called "friends shops". The separatist organization "aims to create a network of businesses that cooperate in spreading the message of the ANC to expand and reach other types of people." Among the options for collaboration is that of "hanging signs outside the property or inside the windows and putting a distinctive stating that you are a 'Friend of the ANC Trade'."


    Les Corts, one of the wealthier districts of Barcelona, ​​the "Assemblea" and has the support of dozens of businesses that advertised on the internet. The campaign takes place in other neighborhoods, as can be seen in the links suggested in the previous page. Rides militants ANC stores match the survey conducted door to door with the "decoration" of street furniture with ribbons and yellow papers.

    The attitude of some members of the ANC and the fact mark the affected stores has caused outrage in some establishment owners who refuse to cooperate with the "Assemblea" but fear that threats of boycotts are realized if do not agree to pay what they call "revolutionary tax" and hang up the separatist poster.


    As can be seen in the page where the ANC gives a list of stores with the yellow "certificate", the "idea" is "to preserve the fabric of our neighborhood merchants" and "We want our neighbors are present." For many owners of establishments thinly veiled insinuation is mafia category.









    http://www.libertaddigital.com/espan...os-1276531323/

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    for the catalans.........an old venetian saying

    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Ridiculous current regionalist nationalism need a fictitious enemy is created, it is the only way they make sense of their stupid crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Ridiculous current regionalist nationalism need a fictitious enemy is created, it is the only way they make sense of their stupid crazy.
    Maybe if Spain makes the catalan language the national language instead of this "spanish language" which is a mix of Castilian and Leonese dialects , then it might change the vote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Ridiculous current regionalist nationalism need a fictitious enemy is created, it is the only way they make sense of their stupid crazy.
    What do you think the future of Spain will be, if Catalonia manages to stay? May I ask. Will Spain once again become the prosperous nation it once was? Will the nationalism/separatism die-down? Will the Spanish government manage to make Spain a healthy prosperous culture?

    Right now; it seems that Spain's future is bleak. (Let us not pretend that it's not.) But it will be interesting to see what the government will plan, if they want to make their nation healthy again. I personally believe the Spanish government will have to take a lot of effort to restore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Maybe if Spain makes the catalan language the national language instead of this "spanish language" which is a mix of Castilian and Leonese dialects , then it might change the vote
    Catalan is a Spanish language, maybe if the whole map of Spain is called "Catalan Countries" everything would be solved, the solution may be as simple and ridiculous. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Catalan is a Spanish language, maybe if the whole map of Spain is called "Catalan Countries" everything would be solved, the solution may be as simple and ridiculous. lol
    Maybe you are correct if that happens ...........considering the first merger was that the catalans supplied the King

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    What do you think the future of Spain will be, if Catalonia manages to stay? May I ask. Will Spain once again become the prosperous nation it once was? Will the nationalism/separatism die-down? Will the Spanish government manage to make Spain a healthy prosperous culture?

    Right now; it seems that Spain's future is bleak. (Let us not pretend that it's not.) But it will be interesting to see what the government will plan, if they want to make their nation healthy again. I personally believe the Spanish government will have to take a lot of effort to restore.

    The problem of Spain is currently the corruption of some politicians, power is centralized, civil guard or the police do their work, judges do their job and yet the corrupt politicians are not going to jail or go very little time and no return the money they have in Switzerland and other tax havens such as Jordi Pujol have this ambitious midget who loves to Catalonia but both billions of euros have stolen the offshore.


    Yes that Spain can be a great prosperous country in the future, we have the potential and we have shown through history, it's just a question of cleaning and separating the political caste justice policy.


    Not the case of Catalonia, is the case of Catalan political oligarchy with a great social engineering to master their electorate like sheep. Health in Catalonia, work, everything is terrible, what if they are not able now to make things work why should they get things work remain independent? really the work of Catalan politics is so corrupt and disastrous as it is in the rest of Spain, there is no difference, the only Catalonia wants to perpetuate its system more and more, poor Europe privileges independent Catalonia would all on asking, in that are tireless.


    Once we have banished the corruption of the parasitic caste politics Spain again be what it has always been.

    Do not think it has any future actions and attitudes pseudonazis today in any country in Europe and ridiculously imported least in some Spanish regions, the doctrine baseless die itself.

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