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Thread: Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

  1. #26
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    Myths and lies of the Catalan nationalism.

    " Catalonia suffers one district attorney pillaged ... Spain steals us!!! ”

    This is a campaign of marketing where the lies are mixed with the atrocities.

    We go step by step. " District attorney pillaged " wants to be said by him that to a community a fiscal different legislation is applied, a few tax different types, which in the rest. For example, there would be " district attorney pillaged " if in Catalonia the VAT out of 25 % when in the rest of Spain it is 16 % (at present it is 18 % in the whole Spain.). Or if in Catalonia the fiscal current Bonuses were not in force in the rest of the State. This is one I pillage.

    Since that does not exist. The fiscal legislation is the same in the whole State, the tax types are the same, the bonuses also, and quite. Except ... a tax that is a competition of the Generalitat (the Tax of Successions and Donations), where the Generalitat does not want to apply by no means the similar deductions that they already enjoy in the rest of the State.
    What the nationalists want to say with the expression " district attorney pillaged " is that the quantity, boor, of money collected in Catalonia is top that the quantity, boor, of money that is invested in the territory. That is to say: deficit.

    It is logical. The richest regions will always suffer this difference. Germany already suffers it with regard to Ireland, for example... Or the Vale of Arán with regard to the Montsià, and Sant Cugat of the Vallés with regard to Ciutat Badia. And the Avenue Pedralbes with regard to the street Banhs Nous...

    The richer is a region or territory, the more he suffers this difference.

    Nevertheless, the one who more "suffers" in Spain is not Catalonia, but the Balearic Islands because ... they are richer than we. I would like already that Catalonia was still suffering more this deficit, because that would mean that it would be more prosperous of the one that it is now.
    If Catalonia was independent ... this deficit would keep on existing. An independent Catalonia would save this deficit if:

    1. The income was staying equal or was rising. Which is neither demonstrable nor believable. On the contrary, foreseeable that one is that the income goes down, seen the instability and the suspense, little friend of the economy.

    2. The expenses were staying equal or they will go down. Which is radically impossible. An independent State needs expenses, that now we save ourselves: defense, army, exterior relations, financial provisions in the Central Bank and in economic international institutions, expenses of international organizations, contributions to the EU.

    In the end, a bad business would be the independence: more expenses and less income, we would eat up the current "deficit" and we still would need more.

    Myths and myths. This myth is like a campaign of marketing to obtain followers to the nationalistic cause. A pity that is a lie.

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    spain has been never famous for respect minor cultures... catalans probably have more liberty now than with Franco, but this not means they have plenty liberty now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jurrian View Post
    spain has been never famous for respect minor cultures... catalans probably have more liberty now than with Franco, but this not means they have plenty liberty now.
    I see that the latter years the nationalism Catalan nationalist has been doing a big work of marketing counting lies.
    Clearly Spain is a Constitutional state, with a constitution and a few laws that all the autonomous regions have to respect.

    The nationalism Catalan nationalist, an invention prefabricated simply uses his arguments to try to go out privileged to the detriment of other regions, this is all the freedom for that they look: more money.

    The Dictator Franco continued the line of the Borbones that was to privilege and to be of benefit to the regions of Catalonia and Basque Country, this way of simple, otherwise economically they would not have come to any place. At present the whole pataleo that the nationalists bring is to keep on being privileged, but the times have changed and that will not be possible.

    Also all the Catalans do not think equally, all this of the nationalism of the regions is an invention, a machinery to extract money. Only 5 % of what is made in Catalonia sells abroad, the rest sells in Spain, aftermath of the Franco period, the nationalists are the last ones who want to separate of Spain.

    One of his lies is to convince to the world that they are the only victims of the Dictatorship of Franco.

    The Catalan nationalism is directed by 3 ó 4 related families between yes, that have managed to create all his world of fantasy and to implant it in the brain to some young people, they need to keep on having followers, fleecy clouds to continue in the power.

    At present the Catalan nationalism is leading to Catalonia to the ruin, because they are simply bogeys that the only thing that they claim is to pillage the Spanish State: otherwise why do not they separate?: what do they already give?: do not they it do truth?, logician, they are not interested in.

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    Well, as a catalan in favour of independence, i have to say that the process is now going on in Catalonia, with a demonstration of 1,5 million people in Barcelona last 11th september with the slogan "Catalonia-next state in Europe", with more than 50% of the people of the country agreeing with the independence and with the european institutions keeping a significative silence about this fact.
    Only from the spanish side, they have denied our claims and also have threatened us with militar intervention or international ostracism.

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    I am Catalan and I also want independence for Catalonia. I don't care what the Spaniards say, we're not afraid and we'll follow our own way.

    Visca Catalunya :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Visca Catalunya :)
    Nice to see that here are more catalans:))

    Visca Catalunya Lliure!

    Sure, the indepence is near, perhaps closer than we expected only some months ago...

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    Hope so! now it's the time. Welcome to the Forum ;)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Catalonia is right.. the unpruductive regions, that are also those who spend the more, can't be sustained by the virtous ones.. If not given tax and fiscal (to each the managin of his productiveness, and nor distributrion to the central capital city) federalism, secession is the only option.
    Tax and fiscal federalism are the best options to develop also the unprudictive regions that in this way get responsible for their own.
    It's the same situation in italy with the too much centralized power of Rome and the state; the unpruductive Mezzogiorno regions, and the virtuous ones above rome.

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    last month I listened to 2 interviews between Barroso and Zaia ( president of the Veneto) , Baroso stated that the problems with the EU is that nations exist inside of it.......basically he wants nations out and only the EU to be regionally run ( easier and cheaper to bail out ) and with this he support the independence of the Veneto, Catalonia and Bavaria to name 3 .
    Zaia ran a survey of 20000 veneti and the results where 54% for full indepenence and 89% for full atonomy i.e. keeping and setting the percentages of all taxes. ( Sicily keeps 100% of its taxes, so its already been done )

    As far as I know Catalonia had 94% asking for independene a few years ago.

    Will a system of regions over nations save the EU as well as aid the issue of cultural divide
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    Viviane Reding denied absurd claims saying Catalonia will not be part of the EU if finally become independent. On the other hand, the 94% percent you mention probably belongs to a "referendum" in a small Catalan village. Actually, at least 55% of the Catalans would be in favour of independence according to the last data, which is not bad at all.

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    Independence for Catalonia, although it may well be deserved, opens up a can of worms for other autonomous regions of Spain such as Viscaya and Galicia. The former would certainly push for independence and the latter, who knows.

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    In the Basque Country there's probably a national majority, but not in Galicia. The vast majority of people living in Galicia wants to remain in Spain, sure.

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    How do you define a Catalan? Who is Catalan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    How do you define a Catalan? Who is Catalan?
    There are the etnic pure catalans (those have only catalan surnames), and the catalans of descend of the spanish immigrations, or a lot of mixed catalan-spanish. I don't consider extra-european immigrants as catalans..Catalonia in the north always has had french influence, well actually part of South France was part of the Great Catalonia until the 17th century, so some french are also catalan, those of Roussillón with many catalan origin surnames there also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    BBC News : Catalonia votes on autonomy plan



    I support the independence of Catalonia, as I do for the Basque country of any other region of Europe (Scotland, Corsica, Flanders...) that wishes it while staying in the EU. This is an important step in the process of increasing democracy (government closer to the people) and strengthening regional cultures within Europe. This is how I see Europe evolving toward more decentralised federalism, where the EU is one single market and economy, but each cultural nation-state has a maximum of autonomy for such things as education, taxation and regional laws.
    Agree totally otherwise Catalans and Basques might disappear in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensuikan San View Post
    I agree.

    Catalonia has waited an awful long time for this moment. It was, I believe, promised its autonomy by the Spanish Republican Government (along with the Basque provinces) waaaaay back in the 1930's ... but history intervened!

    Non Pasaran!

    However ... the question does have to be asked ....

    Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?

    Just a thought.

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    Not really, if you give the people the right to self government they will be able to work with each other more. If you force oeike to live together under one government it will always happen that the majority group will try to rule over the minorities. This is one of the main reasons why the Middle East is still not much progressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    There are the etnic pure catalans (those have only catalan surnames), and the catalans of descend of the spanish immigrations, or a lot of mixed catalan-spanish. I don't consider extra-european immigrants as catalans..Catalonia in the north always has had french influence, well actually part of South France was part of the Great Catalonia until the 17th century, so some french are also catalan, those of Roussillón with many catalan origin surnames there also.
    Still language-based nationalism is hard for me to swallow :) And you mention mixed Spanish-Catalan etc. following that logic then who is Spanish? There might be no Spanish but Castillian, Andalucian etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Still language-based nationalism is hard for me to swallow :) And you mention mixed Spanish-Catalan etc. following that logic then who is Spanish?There might be no Spanish but Castillian, Andalucian etc.
    Yes, these are spanish, the Castillian (Andalusians are also castillian) etc. the Kingdom of Spain is in fact the union the of the different kingdoms, which you can see on the coat of arms of the spanish flag : the Kingdoms of Leon (Galicia, Asturias, Leon, etc) , the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia, Aragon, Valencia, Balerics), the Kingdom of Castille (includes Andalucia, Murcia and both Castilles) and the Kingdom of Navarra (Navarra, Basque COuntry)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Yes, these are spanish, the Castillian (Andalusians are also castillian) etc. the Kingdom of Spain is in fact the union the of the different kingdoms, which you can see on the coat of arms of the spanish flag : the Kingdoms of Leon (Galicia, Asturias, Leon, etc) , the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia, Aragon, Valencia, Balerics), the Kingdom of Castille (includes Andalucia, Murcia and both Castilles) and the Kingdom of Navarra (Navarra, Basque COuntry)
    But then following this reasoning Catalans are Spanish too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    But then following this reasoning Catalans are Spanish too...
    And if all these regions split from Spain there would be no more spanish, only catalans, castilians, galicians etc etc etc.....similar to yugoslavia.......there are no more yugoslavs once the different cultures departed.

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    Ok let's see. The Catalans are Catalans despite the fact we've never been independent. Our origins can be traced inside the Aragonese framework, as the union of different subregions called "Comtats". It's well documented since XII century aprox that those regions were known (as whole) as "Catalunya la Vella" (Cathalunya Veyla), and "Catalunya Nova" (Nova Cathalunya), this one's added after a while. People living there were, of course, Catalan speakers, hence they were Catalans and its culture and traditions survived until present days. That's the national inheritance, and it's true lots of things happened, but the Catalan identity wasn't destroyed.

    Worth to mention that inside the Aragonese Kingdom, laws, institutions, and languaje, were respected.

    Other regions apart from Catalunya have Catalan speakers (different dialects), but most of them are ok right now in Spain: Baleares, Valencia, and Eastern Aragón. The only region claiming independence is Catalunya, where the "original" Catalans are reported and have "always" been there, although it's not exactly the same as the combination of Catalunya la Vella + Catalunya Nova, but pretty similar. The fact is there seems to be substantial consensus in what it's Catalunya nowadays to achieve our own State for the first time.

    And no, if the rest of the Iberian Peninsula (removing Portugal) prefers to be Spanish, they are going to be Spanish. Nothing will change concerning this.
    Last edited by Knovas; 04-10-12 at 18:41.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Ok let's see. The Catalans are Catalans despite the fact we've never been independent. Our origins can be traced inside the Aragonese framework, as the union of different subregions called "Comtats". It's well documented since XII century aprox that those regions were known (as whole) as "Catalunya la Vella" (Cathalunya Veyla), and "Catalunya Nova" (Nova Cathalunya), this one's added after a while. People living there were, of course, Catalan speakers, hence they were Catalans and its culture and traditions survived until present days. That's the national inheritance, and it's true lots of things happened, but the Catalan identity wasn't destroyed.

    Worth to mention that inside the Aragonese Kingdom, laws, institutions, and languaje, were respected.

    Other regions apart from Catalunya have Catalan speakers (different dialects), but most of them are ok right now in Spain: Baleares, Valencia, and Eastern Aragón. The only region claiming independence is Catalunya, where the "original" Catalans are reported and have "always" been there, although it's not exactly the same as the combination of Catalunya la Vella + Catalunya Nova, but pretty similar. The fact is there seems to be substantial consensus in what it's Catalunya nowadays to achieve our own State for the first time.

    And no, if the rest of the Iberian Peninsula (removing Portugal) prefers to be Spanish, they are going to be Spanish. Nothing will change concerning this.
    I could not agree more, ......interesting would be when the term spanish arrived as a people because they where not around as far as I know at the time of isabella......they where castilians and leonese forming a union and then the catalans and aragonese another.
    But I feel its entirely up to the nation in question.....example, under Italian law/citizenship, there where no Italians until 1861, so the term prior to this was only a reference of people who lived in the Italian peninsula. I assume this would be similar to the term Spanish.

    My opinion has always been and always will be........ is that if a people want independence from another, then they should have it without bloodshed it should be arranged by a body, the czech-slovak split is a good example..........so what if there are another 40 nations in Europe

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    Is there something like ethnic Catalan? For me it's bit funny to base nationalism (Catalan) and chauvinism (Castillan) on a language when both languages are derived from a language of conquering Romans...
    Reminds bit a situation in Nigeria where there is a big rivalry and animosity between francophones and anglophiles...
    For me ethnic identity is closely related to blood and descent rather than language which can change fast.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Catalan comes from Latin as other languajes do, and I can asure you people in Catalonia is very proud of this legacy. However, you're right that there's definetely nothing like a "Catalan Ethnicity" concerning genetics. When I use the term is mostly refered to people having almost all surnames from Catalonia, which is not easy to find. Genetically, people having strong Catalan ancestry (or Aragonese for instance) tends to be closer to Basques overall. This might indicate that people in the Northeast side did not really mix that much with Romans, but they were assimilated to the Roman lifestyle (learning latin).

    The Basques, on the other hand, represent with its culture and genetics an ethnicity from at least the late Neolithic. I think they could have mixed with Celts, but they preserved their original languaje, which is so singular (a Pre-Indo European survivor). There were other Pre-Indo European languajes in what it's Catalonia and Aragon nowadays, which could be still spoken if the Romans did not do their job, but we know very little about this.

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    Ethnic group
    Georgian
    Country: Georgia



    Moltes gràcies :) good overview of the situation, thanks

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