Politics Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

I agree.

Catalonia has waited an awful long time for this moment. It was, I believe, promised its autonomy by the Spanish Republican Government (along with the Basque provinces) waaaaay back in the 1930's ... but history intervened!

Non Pasaran!

However ... the question does have to be asked ....

Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?

Just a thought.

�W����

Not really, if you give the people the right to self government they will be able to work with each other more. If you force oeike to live together under one government it will always happen that the majority group will try to rule over the minorities. This is one of the main reasons why the Middle East is still not much progressed.
 
There are the etnic pure catalans (those have only catalan surnames), and the catalans of descend of the spanish immigrations, or a lot of mixed catalan-spanish. I don't consider extra-european immigrants as catalans..Catalonia in the north always has had french influence, well actually part of South France was part of the Great Catalonia until the 17th century, so some french are also catalan, those of Roussillón with many catalan origin surnames there also.
Still language-based nationalism is hard for me to swallow :) And you mention mixed Spanish-Catalan etc. following that logic then who is Spanish? There might be no Spanish but Castillian, Andalucian etc.
 
Still language-based nationalism is hard for me to swallow :) And you mention mixed Spanish-Catalan etc. following that logic then who is Spanish?There might be no Spanish but Castillian, Andalucian etc.
Yes, these are spanish, the Castillian (Andalusians are also castillian) etc. the Kingdom of Spain is in fact the union the of the different kingdoms, which you can see on the coat of arms of the spanish flag : the Kingdoms of Leon (Galicia, Asturias, Leon, etc) , the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia, Aragon, Valencia, Balerics), the Kingdom of Castille (includes Andalucia, Murcia and both Castilles) and the Kingdom of Navarra (Navarra, Basque COuntry)
 
Yes, these are spanish, the Castillian (Andalusians are also castillian) etc. the Kingdom of Spain is in fact the union the of the different kingdoms, which you can see on the coat of arms of the spanish flag : the Kingdoms of Leon (Galicia, Asturias, Leon, etc) , the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia, Aragon, Valencia, Balerics), the Kingdom of Castille (includes Andalucia, Murcia and both Castilles) and the Kingdom of Navarra (Navarra, Basque COuntry)

But then following this reasoning Catalans are Spanish too...
 
But then following this reasoning Catalans are Spanish too...

And if all these regions split from Spain there would be no more spanish, only catalans, castilians, galicians etc etc etc.....similar to yugoslavia.......there are no more yugoslavs once the different cultures departed.
 
Ok let's see. The Catalans are Catalans despite the fact we've never been independent. Our origins can be traced inside the Aragonese framework, as the union of different subregions called "Comtats". It's well documented since XII century aprox that those regions were known (as whole) as "Catalunya la Vella" (Cathalunya Veyla), and "Catalunya Nova" (Nova Cathalunya), this one's added after a while. People living there were, of course, Catalan speakers, hence they were Catalans and its culture and traditions survived until present days. That's the national inheritance, and it's true lots of things happened, but the Catalan identity wasn't destroyed.

Worth to mention that inside the Aragonese Kingdom, laws, institutions, and languaje, were respected.

Other regions apart from Catalunya have Catalan speakers (different dialects), but most of them are ok right now in Spain: Baleares, Valencia, and Eastern Aragón. The only region claiming independence is Catalunya, where the "original" Catalans are reported and have "always" been there, although it's not exactly the same as the combination of Catalunya la Vella + Catalunya Nova, but pretty similar. The fact is there seems to be substantial consensus in what it's Catalunya nowadays to achieve our own State for the first time.

And no, if the rest of the Iberian Peninsula (removing Portugal) prefers to be Spanish, they are going to be Spanish. Nothing will change concerning this.
 
Last edited:
Ok let's see. The Catalans are Catalans despite the fact we've never been independent. Our origins can be traced inside the Aragonese framework, as the union of different subregions called "Comtats". It's well documented since XII century aprox that those regions were known (as whole) as "Catalunya la Vella" (Cathalunya Veyla), and "Catalunya Nova" (Nova Cathalunya), this one's added after a while. People living there were, of course, Catalan speakers, hence they were Catalans and its culture and traditions survived until present days. That's the national inheritance, and it's true lots of things happened, but the Catalan identity wasn't destroyed.

Worth to mention that inside the Aragonese Kingdom, laws, institutions, and languaje, were respected.

Other regions apart from Catalunya have Catalan speakers (different dialects), but most of them are ok right now in Spain: Baleares, Valencia, and Eastern Aragón. The only region claiming independence is Catalunya, where the "original" Catalans are reported and have "always" been there, although it's not exactly the same as the combination of Catalunya la Vella + Catalunya Nova, but pretty similar. The fact is there seems to be substantial consensus in what it's Catalunya nowadays to achieve our own State for the first time.

And no, if the rest of the Iberian Peninsula (removing Portugal) prefers to be Spanish, they are going to be Spanish. Nothing will change concerning this.

I could not agree more, ......interesting would be when the term spanish arrived as a people because they where not around as far as I know at the time of isabella......they where castilians and leonese forming a union and then the catalans and aragonese another.
But I feel its entirely up to the nation in question.....example, under Italian law/citizenship, there where no Italians until 1861, so the term prior to this was only a reference of people who lived in the Italian peninsula. I assume this would be similar to the term Spanish.

My opinion has always been and always will be........ is that if a people want independence from another, then they should have it without bloodshed it should be arranged by a body, the czech-slovak split is a good example..........so what if there are another 40 nations in Europe
 
Is there something like ethnic Catalan? For me it's bit funny to base nationalism (Catalan) and chauvinism (Castillan) on a language when both languages are derived from a language of conquering Romans...
Reminds bit a situation in Nigeria where there is a big rivalry and animosity between francophones and anglophiles...
For me ethnic identity is closely related to blood and descent rather than language which can change fast.
 
Catalan comes from Latin as other languajes do, and I can asure you people in Catalonia is very proud of this legacy. However, you're right that there's definetely nothing like a "Catalan Ethnicity" concerning genetics. When I use the term is mostly refered to people having almost all surnames from Catalonia, which is not easy to find. Genetically, people having strong Catalan ancestry (or Aragonese for instance) tends to be closer to Basques overall. This might indicate that people in the Northeast side did not really mix that much with Romans, but they were assimilated to the Roman lifestyle (learning latin).

The Basques, on the other hand, represent with its culture and genetics an ethnicity from at least the late Neolithic. I think they could have mixed with Celts, but they preserved their original languaje, which is so singular (a Pre-Indo European survivor). There were other Pre-Indo European languajes in what it's Catalonia and Aragon nowadays, which could be still spoken if the Romans did not do their job, but we know very little about this.
 
Moltes gràcies :) good overview of the situation, thanks
 
Is there something like ethnic Catalan? For me it's bit funny to base nationalism (Catalan) and chauvinism (Castillan) on a language when both languages are derived from a language of conquering Romans...
Reminds bit a situation in Nigeria where there is a big rivalry and animosity between francophones and anglophiles...
For me ethnic identity is closely related to blood and descent rather than language which can change fast.
Well, Catalan or for that matter Castillian developed here, in other words, they were created here, even if evolving from Latin. Another thing is the genetic question, I agree that ethnicity implies also genetics, and only Basques could form a different ethnicity (altough they are not as different as some people would like), but spaniards are pretty homogeneus genetically, altough there are some differences on an intra-iberian level, like ethnic Catalans being closer to French, the Aragonese closer to Basques, etc. And despite Catalan is a Roman derived langauge, and being a heavily Romanized region (actually the first region where Romans arrived in their conques of the Peninsula ), the Romans in Catalonia had a very low genetic impact, as seen by the very low levels of haplogroups J, or autosomal West-Asian, so abundant in the Italic peninsula, but which reach levels similar to northern europeans in Catalonia...
 
Yeah right, Catalans tend to be closer to French, although some of them are very close to Basques (I've seen at least a couple or three, including myself). Most populations in Europe have been influenced by others in relatively recent times, that's common. Following the mentioned pattern there's more reason to say there's no "French ethnicity", because from north to south the differences are noticeable (and even from Southwest France to Southeast France).
 
Nationalism Catalan regionalist think it was imported to Catalonia by Mr. Robert in a prefab and unnatural.


Do not forget that Catalonia had the Spanish market to itself with the approval of the dictatorship of Franco, was thus able to industrialize more, some people of course, because the working class never rich.



Regionalist nationalism invents, misrepresents history, lie more than blink, and they want to convince the world and to other Western European countries that are more European than the rest of Spanish.


But the truth is that they have never proved anything, the Olympics paid 92 the whole of Spain. Nationalists also had Spanir airline, which ended in disaster an accident with all passengers dead because the plane was not fit and finally the airline Spanair bankruptcy and closure.


Catalonia has never been a country, regionalist nationalists want comparse with the great European nations, but have never been, and never will have shown. Country already have a large part of which is Spain, it is not necessary to invent a country.

Moreover, it is regrettable that the BBC collect all the lies of catalan nationalism and published as truth, you want other European countries the destruction of the unity of Spain?


We note from Spain is not capturing the reality of our country abroad.


Even in a North American newspaper published a photograph of an African immigrant looking in a trash container, please! that immigrant and looking in the trash even when Spain's economy was better.


I advise the media of European and international comunición on the case of Catalan secessionist nacionalistmo contrary opinions are published and then they will realize who they really are as nationalists and lie.


Think you may be supporting or viewing kindly to a philosophy and ideology that is imported and that once the world got eradicate.


Do not be fooled.


Catalonia has always been favored by the centrality of Madrid to the detriment of other Spanish regions, so anyone gets rich.


After the Multinationals in Catalonia, Spain and the cake is shared between Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country, is outdated mentality, now today is equal to all Spanish and is at this point that the nationalists regionalist catalan does not want to, because they want to continue to have privileges and modern times say that this model no longer works, is retrogressive and discriminatory.

The regional government of Catalonia has been a bad manager, has wasted money, including its president Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy who is the president of Spain.

Entrepreneurs of Catalonia are very angry about the position and the Catalan regional government statements.


What is produced in Catalonia, pizzas, sausage, wine, etc. bone more than 75% of what is produced in Catalonia are sold in the rest of Spain.


Nationalism served regionalist sentiment, the love that everyone has for their land, region or short cut in order to brainwash people, not sound to something?


Please international press that echoes the truth and other contrary opinions, thus they will realize the truth.


The regional government is using the feeling of the people to plug in a smokescreen their mismanagement, their uselessness as rulers and bad politics, disguising themselves as victims and thus present themselves to the world.
 
Nationalism Catalan regionalist think it was imported to Catalonia by Mr. Robert in a prefab and unnatural.


Do not forget that Catalonia had the Spanish market to itself with the approval of the dictatorship of Franco, was thus able to industrialize more, some people of course, because the working class never rich.



Regionalist nationalism invents, misrepresents history, lie more than blink, and they want to convince the world and to other Western European countries that are more European than the rest of Spanish.


But the truth is that they have never proved anything, the Olympics paid 92 the whole of Spain. Nationalists also had Spanir airline, which ended in disaster an accident with all passengers dead because the plane was not fit and finally the airline Spanair bankruptcy and closure.


Catalonia has never been a country, regionalist nationalists want comparse with the great European nations, but have never been, and never will have shown. Country already have a large part of which is Spain, it is not necessary to invent a country.

Moreover, it is regrettable that the BBC collect all the lies of catalan nationalism and published as truth, you want other European countries the destruction of the unity of Spain?


We note from Spain is not capturing the reality of our country abroad.


Even in a North American newspaper published a photograph of an African immigrant looking in a trash container, please! that immigrant and looking in the trash even when Spain's economy was better.


I advise the media of European and international comunición on the case of Catalan secessionist nacionalistmo contrary opinions are published and then they will realize who they really are as nationalists and lie.


Think you may be supporting or viewing kindly to a philosophy and ideology that is imported and that once the world got eradicate.


Do not be fooled.


Catalonia has always been favored by the centrality of Madrid to the detriment of other Spanish regions, so anyone gets rich.


After the Multinationals in Catalonia, Spain and the cake is shared between Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country, is outdated mentality, now today is equal to all Spanish and is at this point that the nationalists regionalist catalan does not want to, because they want to continue to have privileges and modern times say that this model no longer works, is retrogressive and discriminatory.

The regional government of Catalonia has been a bad manager, has wasted money, including its president Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy who is the president of Spain.

Entrepreneurs of Catalonia are very angry about the position and the Catalan regional government statements.


What is produced in Catalonia, pizzas, sausage, wine, etc. bone more than 75% of what is produced in Catalonia are sold in the rest of Spain.


Nationalism served regionalist sentiment, the love that everyone has for their land, region or short cut in order to brainwash people, not sound to something?


Please international press that echoes the truth and other contrary opinions, thus they will realize the truth.


The regional government is using the feeling of the people to plug in a smokescreen their mismanagement, their uselessness as rulers and bad politics, disguising themselves as victims and thus present themselves to the world.

I find the whole article bias and against most of what history tells us ( basically castilian propaganda) ..........who taught you the history of Spain?
 
^^

You still believe in the lies of the Catalan regionalist nationalism if you will, but totally lying.


Moreover Spain is not in the Middle Ages, we have that feeling in modern Spain, so their perception of modern Spain think that is contaminated by other times and you will have read in ancient history books.


The modern Spanish believe in equality and growth in Spain alike, is not feasible at present that Catalonia is privileged at the expense of other regions, there is no reason for it, no reason.


Separatist nationalists want to maintain the privileges that once gave the Bourbons and then the dictator Franco, but times have changed and not feasible in modern Spain.


I posted an article on this same thread over all Catalan government corruption within health, education, councils etc and is under the supervision of the moderators, I hope to be published and uncensored, because it is the other way around the world, the international media believing the lies of Catalan nationalism, Oh, my God, crazy!

Nationalists want to make the world believe that they are northern Europe or focuses, which are Europe's Germany, but the corruptions of their regional governments during the 30 years of democracy in Spain do not show it.


What have they shown?


1. Privileges in Spain for hundreds of years.
2. Having the market in Spain available for approval of General Franco, the dictator.
3. Being chosen ground in Spain to install most multinationals who came to settle in Spain.
4. Today many Catalan towns in foreign universities exemplify what it means to build poorly, poorly constructed cities to receive the payment bleeding in people who did other regions to have their citizens to emigrate to Catalonia, by the political plan was this.


What inventions Catalans there? What distinctly Catalan industry leader in the world are there?


What can boast to differentiate themselves in Spanish?


Are the same as the rest of Spanish that make different regions with a common history. They are not the only ones who love their region other regions also love our home, but we also love the unity of Spain, our country.

In schools of Madrid, Murcia, Andalusia, Extremadura, etc. not taught children hatred and resentment towards Spain, do you know that schools are indoctrinated Catalan children in alienation of Spain?


In summary:


Catalan nationalists want to compare with the rich Europe, but have not proven anything, it's all words and aesthetics. With the privileges granted by Spain itself have enriched a little more than the rest, have been ground multinational policies Catalan Spain itself, but Catalonia is currently in deficit and is impoverished, once they leave the multinationals, not is nothing, invented nothing, or created a distinctly Catalan industry relevant importance.


So I do not know why both boast and try to convince the world that are different from other Spanish, Western culture, like any other region of Spain, small differences folk, but then to copararse with the great European nations, it seems something outrageously ridiculous, you can only see and believe people actually seek the destruction of the unity of Spain as a country.

All nationalism creates an imagined nation and political fetish becomes locked flag all personal and collective frustrations of its components.


They want to be because they are neither were.

Economically there are only Barcelona and Tarragona, and territorial term "Catalan" exists only in the nationalist voluntarism emerged in the nineteenth century and the manipulations of its institutions.


The "old kingdom" but as there was no county subservient to Aragones, whose flag copied.

All interventions Catalan national politics have been interested and dire: Cambo in the stage of Primo de Rivera, the solution within the First Republic, the agitations of the II, the betrayal of his allies in the Civil War, the permissiveness of Franco with them and the constant harassment in the current democracy.

Navarra and the Balearic Islands have a higher per capita income, and Madrid (the obsession of Catalan) beats Barcelona in trade and industrial investment, and above all, even without the market would be less, capital and labor Spanish.

Lost all American territories, demanded absolute protectionism and created a captive market as its underdeveloped and little industry reinvested.

Their ideology born of reactionary Catholic, as in Basque, and their "integration" is the reverse of the racist attitude: to deny the other.


His apparent political "progressives" in the socio-cultural serve to hide their purposes, dilute to the left and democratic forces and eliminate resistance of the people and culture (especially language) Spanish.
 
The posts above are extremely embarassing, full of lies and and sometimes only showing one side of the coin. If one tells that the national identity of Catalunya could be only traced to the XIXth century, obviously is not versed in history...well, that was clear since the begining reading such an amount of strange things. Note that we don't read anything about the Catalan language in all of this, and the guy pretends Catalunya is the same as other regions. We speak Catalan and Castillian in perfect harmony despite the fact our original language is Catalan, so if someone tries to make believe things are not like this, it's simply totally biased.

Catalunya has no privileges, rather the opposite. It is contributing to the rest of communities a lot more than the average does, and the Spanish state does not follow their own laws. They are not paying the money required in the Catalan law (with the aproval of Spain), and they are not complying their budget in Catalunya concerning infrastructures since a very long time. Morover, with all the money they should give to Catalunya (and they don't), we still have to ask for money under conditions...a shame. This, of course, does not include taxes: 50% of it goes to the rest of Spain, being Catalunya one of the most important regions, and really apreciated for destination during holidays of people from all over the world.

Madrid is the community having most of the privileges, and if it became more productive than Catalunya it's only due to the fact that they recived more money for infrastructure, and because the Spanish state authorised more direct flights to Madrid and not to Barcelona. What they achieved with this, is that it became easier for business to settle in Madrid, clear as day. Despite of this, Catalunya still has its own place in the world, and it's the most important region concerning outputs: near 55% of its production goes to the rest of the world, that is a lot more higher than Madrid or other regions, and it's definetely a strong point to go on once we become independent.

We (Catalans) are doing our job, and for more they lie, shout, or cry, doesn't matter, if the vast majority of us wants to become independent, we'll have it for sure. Time to accept it ;)
 
The posts above are extremely embarassing, full of lies and and sometimes only showing one side of the coin. If one tells that the national identity of Catalunya could be only traced to the XIXth century, obviously is not versed in history...well, that was clear since the begining reading such an amount of strange things. Note that we don't read anything about the Catalan language in all of this, and the guy pretends Catalunya is the same as other regions. We speak Catalan and Castillian in perfect harmony despite the fact our original language is Catalan, so if someone tries to make believe things are not like this, it's simply totally biased.

Catalunya has no privileges, rather the opposite. It is contributing to the rest of communities a lot more than the average does, and the Spanish state does not follow their own laws. They are not paying the money required in the Catalan law (with the aproval of Spain), and they are not complying their budget in Catalunya concerning infrastructures since a very long time. Morover, with all the money they should give to Catalunya (and they don't), we still have to ask for money under conditions...a shame. This, of course, does not include taxes: 50% of it goes to the rest of Spain, being Catalunya one of the most important regions, and really apreciated for destination during holidays of people from all over the world.

Madrid is the community having most of the privileges, and if it became more productive than Catalunya it's only due to the fact that they recived more money for infrastructure, and because the Spanish state authorised more direct flights to Madrid and not to Barcelona. What they achieved with this, is that it became easier for business to settle in Madrid, clear as day. Despite of this, Catalunya still has its own place in the world, and it's the most important region concerning outputs: near 55% of its production goes to the rest of the world, that is a lot more higher than Madrid or other regions, and it's definetely a strong point to go on once we become independent.

We (Catalans) are doing our job, and for more they lie, shout, or cry, doesn't matter, if the vast majority of us wants to become independent, we'll have it for sure. Time to accept it ;)

i can only agree with you, besides the kingdom of aragon was based on argonese and catalans, ......there is also the catalan company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company

and many other information that the catalans/argonese/navaresse where indeed around longer than the castilians/leonese
 
Zanipolo in Spain do not feel to be in the Middle Ages, I say if you think otherwise.


You can say that Madrid, the Basque Country and Catalonia have divided the Spanish market for too long already, and have expense of other Spanish regions.


This approach is already outdated, does not work, is not equal.


Modern Spanish mentality is not to inequality and discrimination among citizens, in that sense you could say that regionalist nationalism not have returned to the Middle Ages rather to the caverns.
 
Coca Cola leaves Catalonia to settle in Madrid

Cobega has convened general meeting of shareholders on 26 November, in which he intends to give the green light to the new structure.

The balance of the tilt ended some European managers of The Coca-Cola Company, which moved the desirability of raising all possible firewall against hypothetical trade boycotts. Despite the global nature of the product, the U.S. multinational wants the minimum exposure and political neutrality as possible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ludger Fretzen, president of Volkswagen-Audi Spain: "If Catalonia becomes independent, the headquarters will move to Madrid"

The statements of the highest representative of the Volkswagen Group in Spain, whose headquarters are located in Barcelona, are the result of the sovereigntist discourse of President of the Generalitat of Catalonia, Artur Mas, which aims to bring this community to independence, separating it from Spain. In this regard, Fretzen recognized that he had already met with Human Resources team to discuss the potential transaction.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lara: "If it were independent Catalunya, Grupo Planeta would have to go"

Jose Manuel Lara Andalusian and founder of the largest Spanish-language publishing.

Planeta Corporación, S.R.L., doing business as Grupo Planeta, is a Spanish media group based in Barcelona. The company operates in Spain, Portugal, France and Latin America. Editorial Planeta, its flagship, was founded in 1949. Planeta owns over 70 publishing houses worldwide. It publishes the newspapers La Razón and ADN. Besides publishing, the group operates in the areas of collectibles, training, direct marketing, distance learning, and audiovisual media. With its purchase of Editis in 2008, it became one of the largest publishers in the world, with over 1 billion dollars of revenue that year.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artur Mas is becoming the best ambassador of Madrid. Companies Catalonia flee, flee surrealism.


Catalonia, Artur Mas intended to continue in the EU keep the euro and belongs to NATO, all for the nose.


The regional government of Catalonia have been poor managers, Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy, have ruined their region and blame the rest of Spain not to take responsibility, the best way is to go to the request for independence as a threat to the Spanish and disrupting the unity of Spain at a time of crisis where it is best to unite and work hard.


Businesses are fleeing the secessionist ridiculous surrealism.
 
An independence activist has 5,000 complaints against businesses in five years by use Spanish

Seuba a librarian of 32 years, has five years traveling throughout Catalonia to inform on any employer who does not use Catalan in the labels. The Generalitat has imposed more than a thousand sanctions for this reason since 2004 for a total of over one million euros. However, the Constitutional Court ruled that the fines are illegal language.

Catalonia has traveled notebook in hand scoring establishments data whose labels were not written in Catalan. From the Costa Brava to the Costa Dorada, from Barcelona and many municipalities in the metropolitan area and inland walks Seuba says he made ​​up to ten hours a day as if it were consumer inspector.


The Grand Inquisitor recognizes that it has a network of fifty contributors, in addition to inform entrepreneurs who dare to use Castilian in their shops, sign some allegations that he fills.


Is not this sound like something?

So are these people and this is the persecution suffered by many citizens.

Can you be more ridiculous pursue Spanish in Spain?

It's time to know where they are and to wash the brains.

The world once ended with "them", we will do ...
 

This thread has been viewed 275618 times.

Back
Top