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Thread: Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Is there something like ethnic Catalan? For me it's bit funny to base nationalism (Catalan) and chauvinism (Castillan) on a language when both languages are derived from a language of conquering Romans...
    Reminds bit a situation in Nigeria where there is a big rivalry and animosity between francophones and anglophiles...
    For me ethnic identity is closely related to blood and descent rather than language which can change fast.
    Well, Catalan or for that matter Castillian developed here, in other words, they were created here, even if evolving from Latin. Another thing is the genetic question, I agree that ethnicity implies also genetics, and only Basques could form a different ethnicity (altough they are not as different as some people would like), but spaniards are pretty homogeneus genetically, altough there are some differences on an intra-iberian level, like ethnic Catalans being closer to French, the Aragonese closer to Basques, etc. And despite Catalan is a Roman derived langauge, and being a heavily Romanized region (actually the first region where Romans arrived in their conques of the Peninsula ), the Romans in Catalonia had a very low genetic impact, as seen by the very low levels of haplogroups J, or autosomal West-Asian, so abundant in the Italic peninsula, but which reach levels similar to northern europeans in Catalonia...

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    Yeah right, Catalans tend to be closer to French, although some of them are very close to Basques (I've seen at least a couple or three, including myself). Most populations in Europe have been influenced by others in relatively recent times, that's common. Following the mentioned pattern there's more reason to say there's no "French ethnicity", because from north to south the differences are noticeable (and even from Southwest France to Southeast France).

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    Nationalism Catalan regionalist think it was imported to Catalonia by Mr. Robert in a prefab and unnatural.


    Do not forget that Catalonia had the Spanish market to itself with the approval of the dictatorship of Franco, was thus able to industrialize more, some people of course, because the working class never rich.



    Regionalist nationalism invents, misrepresents history, lie more than blink, and they want to convince the world and to other Western European countries that are more European than the rest of Spanish.


    But the truth is that they have never proved anything, the Olympics paid 92 the whole of Spain. Nationalists also had Spanir airline, which ended in disaster an accident with all passengers dead because the plane was not fit and finally the airline Spanair bankruptcy and closure.


    Catalonia has never been a country, regionalist nationalists want comparse with the great European nations, but have never been, and never will have shown. Country already have a large part of which is Spain, it is not necessary to invent a country.

    Moreover, it is regrettable that the BBC collect all the lies of catalan nationalism and published as truth, you want other European countries the destruction of the unity of Spain?


    We note from Spain is not capturing the reality of our country abroad.


    Even in a North American newspaper published a photograph of an African immigrant looking in a trash container, please! that immigrant and looking in the trash even when Spain's economy was better.


    I advise the media of European and international comunición on the case of Catalan secessionist nacionalistmo contrary opinions are published and then they will realize who they really are as nationalists and lie.


    Think you may be supporting or viewing kindly to a philosophy and ideology that is imported and that once the world got eradicate.


    Do not be fooled.


    Catalonia has always been favored by the centrality of Madrid to the detriment of other Spanish regions, so anyone gets rich.


    After the Multinationals in Catalonia, Spain and the cake is shared between Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country, is outdated mentality, now today is equal to all Spanish and is at this point that the nationalists regionalist catalan does not want to, because they want to continue to have privileges and modern times say that this model no longer works, is retrogressive and discriminatory.

    The regional government of Catalonia has been a bad manager, has wasted money, including its president Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy who is the president of Spain.

    Entrepreneurs of Catalonia are very angry about the position and the Catalan regional government statements.


    What is produced in Catalonia, pizzas, sausage, wine, etc. bone more than 75% of what is produced in Catalonia are sold in the rest of Spain.


    Nationalism served regionalist sentiment, the love that everyone has for their land, region or short cut in order to brainwash people, not sound to something?


    Please international press that echoes the truth and other contrary opinions, thus they will realize the truth.


    The regional government is using the feeling of the people to plug in a smokescreen their mismanagement, their uselessness as rulers and bad politics, disguising themselves as victims and thus present themselves to the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Nationalism Catalan regionalist think it was imported to Catalonia by Mr. Robert in a prefab and unnatural.


    Do not forget that Catalonia had the Spanish market to itself with the approval of the dictatorship of Franco, was thus able to industrialize more, some people of course, because the working class never rich.



    Regionalist nationalism invents, misrepresents history, lie more than blink, and they want to convince the world and to other Western European countries that are more European than the rest of Spanish.


    But the truth is that they have never proved anything, the Olympics paid 92 the whole of Spain. Nationalists also had Spanir airline, which ended in disaster an accident with all passengers dead because the plane was not fit and finally the airline Spanair bankruptcy and closure.


    Catalonia has never been a country, regionalist nationalists want comparse with the great European nations, but have never been, and never will have shown. Country already have a large part of which is Spain, it is not necessary to invent a country.

    Moreover, it is regrettable that the BBC collect all the lies of catalan nationalism and published as truth, you want other European countries the destruction of the unity of Spain?


    We note from Spain is not capturing the reality of our country abroad.


    Even in a North American newspaper published a photograph of an African immigrant looking in a trash container, please! that immigrant and looking in the trash even when Spain's economy was better.


    I advise the media of European and international comunición on the case of Catalan secessionist nacionalistmo contrary opinions are published and then they will realize who they really are as nationalists and lie.


    Think you may be supporting or viewing kindly to a philosophy and ideology that is imported and that once the world got eradicate.


    Do not be fooled.


    Catalonia has always been favored by the centrality of Madrid to the detriment of other Spanish regions, so anyone gets rich.


    After the Multinationals in Catalonia, Spain and the cake is shared between Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country, is outdated mentality, now today is equal to all Spanish and is at this point that the nationalists regionalist catalan does not want to, because they want to continue to have privileges and modern times say that this model no longer works, is retrogressive and discriminatory.

    The regional government of Catalonia has been a bad manager, has wasted money, including its president Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy who is the president of Spain.

    Entrepreneurs of Catalonia are very angry about the position and the Catalan regional government statements.


    What is produced in Catalonia, pizzas, sausage, wine, etc. bone more than 75% of what is produced in Catalonia are sold in the rest of Spain.


    Nationalism served regionalist sentiment, the love that everyone has for their land, region or short cut in order to brainwash people, not sound to something?


    Please international press that echoes the truth and other contrary opinions, thus they will realize the truth.


    The regional government is using the feeling of the people to plug in a smokescreen their mismanagement, their uselessness as rulers and bad politics, disguising themselves as victims and thus present themselves to the world.
    I find the whole article bias and against most of what history tells us ( basically castilian propaganda) ..........who taught you the history of Spain?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    ^^

    You still believe in the lies of the Catalan regionalist nationalism if you will, but totally lying.


    Moreover Spain is not in the Middle Ages, we have that feeling in modern Spain, so their perception of modern Spain think that is contaminated by other times and you will have read in ancient history books.


    The modern Spanish believe in equality and growth in Spain alike, is not feasible at present that Catalonia is privileged at the expense of other regions, there is no reason for it, no reason.


    Separatist nationalists want to maintain the privileges that once gave the Bourbons and then the dictator Franco, but times have changed and not feasible in modern Spain.


    I posted an article on this same thread over all Catalan government corruption within health, education, councils etc and is under the supervision of the moderators, I hope to be published and uncensored, because it is the other way around the world, the international media believing the lies of Catalan nationalism, Oh, my God, crazy!

    Nationalists want to make the world believe that they are northern Europe or focuses, which are Europe's Germany, but the corruptions of their regional governments during the 30 years of democracy in Spain do not show it.


    What have they shown?


    1. Privileges in Spain for hundreds of years.
    2. Having the market in Spain available for approval of General Franco, the dictator.
    3. Being chosen ground in Spain to install most multinationals who came to settle in Spain.
    4. Today many Catalan towns in foreign universities exemplify what it means to build poorly, poorly constructed cities to receive the payment bleeding in people who did other regions to have their citizens to emigrate to Catalonia, by the political plan was this.


    What inventions Catalans there? What distinctly Catalan industry leader in the world are there?


    What can boast to differentiate themselves in Spanish?


    Are the same as the rest of Spanish that make different regions with a common history. They are not the only ones who love their region other regions also love our home, but we also love the unity of Spain, our country.

    In schools of Madrid, Murcia, Andalusia, Extremadura, etc. not taught children hatred and resentment towards Spain, do you know that schools are indoctrinated Catalan children in alienation of Spain?


    In summary:


    Catalan nationalists want to compare with the rich Europe, but have not proven anything, it's all words and aesthetics. With the privileges granted by Spain itself have enriched a little more than the rest, have been ground multinational policies Catalan Spain itself, but Catalonia is currently in deficit and is impoverished, once they leave the multinationals, not is nothing, invented nothing, or created a distinctly Catalan industry relevant importance.


    So I do not know why both boast and try to convince the world that are different from other Spanish, Western culture, like any other region of Spain, small differences folk, but then to copararse with the great European nations, it seems something outrageously ridiculous, you can only see and believe people actually seek the destruction of the unity of Spain as a country.

    All nationalism creates an imagined nation and political fetish becomes locked flag all personal and collective frustrations of its components.


    They want to be because they are neither were.

    Economically there are only Barcelona and Tarragona, and territorial term "Catalan" exists only in the nationalist voluntarism emerged in the nineteenth century and the manipulations of its institutions.


    The "old kingdom" but as there was no county subservient to Aragones, whose flag copied.

    All interventions Catalan national politics have been interested and dire: Cambo in the stage of Primo de Rivera, the solution within the First Republic, the agitations of the II, the betrayal of his allies in the Civil War, the permissiveness of Franco with them and the constant harassment in the current democracy.

    Navarra and the Balearic Islands have a higher per capita income, and Madrid (the obsession of Catalan) beats Barcelona in trade and industrial investment, and above all, even without the market would be less, capital and labor Spanish.

    Lost all American territories, demanded absolute protectionism and created a captive market as its underdeveloped and little industry reinvested.

    Their ideology born of reactionary Catholic, as in Basque, and their "integration" is the reverse of the racist attitude: to deny the other.


    His apparent political "progressives" in the socio-cultural serve to hide their purposes, dilute to the left and democratic forces and eliminate resistance of the people and culture (especially language) Spanish.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The posts above are extremely embarassing, full of lies and and sometimes only showing one side of the coin. If one tells that the national identity of Catalunya could be only traced to the XIXth century, obviously is not versed in history...well, that was clear since the begining reading such an amount of strange things. Note that we don't read anything about the Catalan language in all of this, and the guy pretends Catalunya is the same as other regions. We speak Catalan and Castillian in perfect harmony despite the fact our original language is Catalan, so if someone tries to make believe things are not like this, it's simply totally biased.

    Catalunya has no privileges, rather the opposite. It is contributing to the rest of communities a lot more than the average does, and the Spanish state does not follow their own laws. They are not paying the money required in the Catalan law (with the aproval of Spain), and they are not complying their budget in Catalunya concerning infrastructures since a very long time. Morover, with all the money they should give to Catalunya (and they don't), we still have to ask for money under conditions...a shame. This, of course, does not include taxes: 50% of it goes to the rest of Spain, being Catalunya one of the most important regions, and really apreciated for destination during holidays of people from all over the world.

    Madrid is the community having most of the privileges, and if it became more productive than Catalunya it's only due to the fact that they recived more money for infrastructure, and because the Spanish state authorised more direct flights to Madrid and not to Barcelona. What they achieved with this, is that it became easier for business to settle in Madrid, clear as day. Despite of this, Catalunya still has its own place in the world, and it's the most important region concerning outputs: near 55% of its production goes to the rest of the world, that is a lot more higher than Madrid or other regions, and it's definetely a strong point to go on once we become independent.

    We (Catalans) are doing our job, and for more they lie, shout, or cry, doesn't matter, if the vast majority of us wants to become independent, we'll have it for sure. Time to accept it ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    The posts above are extremely embarassing, full of lies and and sometimes only showing one side of the coin. If one tells that the national identity of Catalunya could be only traced to the XIXth century, obviously is not versed in history...well, that was clear since the begining reading such an amount of strange things. Note that we don't read anything about the Catalan language in all of this, and the guy pretends Catalunya is the same as other regions. We speak Catalan and Castillian in perfect harmony despite the fact our original language is Catalan, so if someone tries to make believe things are not like this, it's simply totally biased.

    Catalunya has no privileges, rather the opposite. It is contributing to the rest of communities a lot more than the average does, and the Spanish state does not follow their own laws. They are not paying the money required in the Catalan law (with the aproval of Spain), and they are not complying their budget in Catalunya concerning infrastructures since a very long time. Morover, with all the money they should give to Catalunya (and they don't), we still have to ask for money under conditions...a shame. This, of course, does not include taxes: 50% of it goes to the rest of Spain, being Catalunya one of the most important regions, and really apreciated for destination during holidays of people from all over the world.

    Madrid is the community having most of the privileges, and if it became more productive than Catalunya it's only due to the fact that they recived more money for infrastructure, and because the Spanish state authorised more direct flights to Madrid and not to Barcelona. What they achieved with this, is that it became easier for business to settle in Madrid, clear as day. Despite of this, Catalunya still has its own place in the world, and it's the most important region concerning outputs: near 55% of its production goes to the rest of the world, that is a lot more higher than Madrid or other regions, and it's definetely a strong point to go on once we become independent.

    We (Catalans) are doing our job, and for more they lie, shout, or cry, doesn't matter, if the vast majority of us wants to become independent, we'll have it for sure. Time to accept it ;)
    i can only agree with you, besides the kingdom of aragon was based on argonese and catalans, ......there is also the catalan company
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company

    and many other information that the catalans/argonese/navaresse where indeed around longer than the castilians/leonese

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    Zanipolo in Spain do not feel to be in the Middle Ages, I say if you think otherwise.


    You can say that Madrid, the Basque Country and Catalonia have divided the Spanish market for too long already, and have expense of other Spanish regions.


    This approach is already outdated, does not work, is not equal.


    Modern Spanish mentality is not to inequality and discrimination among citizens, in that sense you could say that regionalist nationalism not have returned to the Middle Ages rather to the caverns.

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    Coca Cola leaves Catalonia to settle in Madrid

    Cobega has convened general meeting of shareholders on 26 November, in which he intends to give the green light to the new structure.

    The balance of the tilt ended some European managers of The Coca-Cola Company, which moved the desirability of raising all possible firewall against hypothetical trade boycotts. Despite the global nature of the product, the U.S. multinational wants the minimum exposure and political neutrality as possible.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ludger Fretzen, president of Volkswagen-Audi Spain: "If Catalonia becomes independent, the headquarters will move to Madrid"

    The statements of the highest representative of the Volkswagen Group in Spain, whose headquarters are located in Barcelona, are the result of the sovereigntist discourse of President of the Generalitat of Catalonia, Artur Mas, which aims to bring this community to independence, separating it from Spain. In this regard, Fretzen recognized that he had already met with Human Resources team to discuss the potential transaction.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lara: "If it were independent Catalunya, Grupo Planeta would have to go"

    Jose Manuel Lara Andalusian and founder of the largest Spanish-language publishing.

    Planeta Corporación, S.R.L., doing business as Grupo Planeta, is a Spanish media group based in Barcelona. The company operates in Spain, Portugal, France and Latin America. Editorial Planeta, its flagship, was founded in 1949. Planeta owns over 70 publishing houses worldwide. It publishes the newspapers La Razón and ADN. Besides publishing, the group operates in the areas of collectibles, training, direct marketing, distance learning, and audiovisual media. With its purchase of Editis in 2008, it became one of the largest publishers in the world, with over 1 billion dollars of revenue that year.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Artur Mas is becoming the best ambassador of Madrid. Companies Catalonia flee, flee surrealism.


    Catalonia, Artur Mas intended to continue in the EU keep the euro and belongs to NATO, all for the nose.


    The regional government of Catalonia have been poor managers, Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy, have ruined their region and blame the rest of Spain not to take responsibility, the best way is to go to the request for independence as a threat to the Spanish and disrupting the unity of Spain at a time of crisis where it is best to unite and work hard.


    Businesses are fleeing the secessionist ridiculous surrealism.

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    An independence activist has 5,000 complaints against businesses in five years by use Spanish

    Seuba a librarian of 32 years, has five years traveling throughout Catalonia to inform on any employer who does not use Catalan in the labels. The Generalitat has imposed more than a thousand sanctions for this reason since 2004 for a total of over one million euros. However, the Constitutional Court ruled that the fines are illegal language.

    Catalonia has traveled notebook in hand scoring establishments data whose labels were not written in Catalan. From the Costa Brava to the Costa Dorada, from Barcelona and many municipalities in the metropolitan area and inland walks Seuba says he made ​​up to ten hours a day as if it were consumer inspector.


    The Grand Inquisitor recognizes that it has a network of fifty contributors, in addition to inform entrepreneurs who dare to use Castilian in their shops, sign some allegations that he fills.


    Is not this sound like something?

    So are these people and this is the persecution suffered by many citizens.

    Can you be more ridiculous pursue Spanish in Spain?

    It's time to know where they are and to wash the brains.

    The world once ended with "them", we will do ...

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    This guy has serious issues: now he strikes again with more lies.

    Cobega is going to settle in Madrid, NOT Coca-Cola, and this was decided long ago. Nothing to do with independence. About Volkswagen-Audi Spain, it makes perfect sense moving it to Spain (Madrid) if Catalonia gets independence. What it's pretty silly, is to assume there will not be Volkswagen-Audi Catalonia. ¿Or do you pretend they're going to risk their business in Catalunya due to this? In short: nonsense.

    Lara said he may have to move part of their business, but not all. However, it doesn't matter, actually Planeta is not important, even for Lara. He gets money by doing other things.

    Maybe we should talk about Seat and their great inversion for the Leon model production. And, ¿what about Fox Head? ¿Don't like the idea they choose Barcelona to sell all over Europe? What a pitty xd

    Fortunately, not all Spanish people behaves like insane while dealing with Catalunya's independence. But, obviously, quite people do, specially inside Spanish politics. A shame...

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    ^^

    Yes indeed a shame the lies told by the separatists.

    A real shame enhance endophobia, hatred and resentment for their own country.

    Lies, lies, that everyone hears and all the ends of the earth may know the lies of a ridiculous and absurd nazionalismo that can threaten and destabilize their own country at a time of maximum crisis, manipulating and lying on history, for any economic and social data of a hypothetical independence of Catalonia.


    But they're going to get, not the lie, the lie has triundado never, ever lie to the Gloria is reached, hatred never rule the world.

    "Catalonia for sale, buyer take over payments.

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    MARÍA CUESTA / MADRID

    Día 04/11/2012 - 17.05h

    When the "pull" independence sentimental appeal Artur Mas was beginning to waver the first symptoms of the shift in the President's speech was the Generalitat book. In economic crisis, battered played pocket appeal to citizens to score against Madrid supporters. The germ of the economic injury was years maturing in Catalan society and was an asset politically infallible.


    But economic arguments should match the numbers and deepen the thesis of the independence movement involves exposing a cluster of traps that have not overlooked major international investment banks. The Union Bank of Switzerland (UBS), the Japanese bank Nomura and JP Morgan's U.S. entity, true poodles of thousands of investors around the world have posted respective reports that much of the sales pitch collapse used by the Generalitat. In short, more debt and more deficits, and, of course, greater reluctance of international investors towards a territory, independent, very likely be out of the euro and the European Union.


    It is true that this hypothetical new state taxes entirely would be generated in the territory (the tax currently raises about 32,000 million in Catalonia, money that would go to the new state if it maintained the current tax structure). Since budgeted revenues in 2012 of the Generalitat exceed 24,750 million, the money collected for the coffers would Catalan additional resources of about 7250 billion. But those revenues would be insufficient to cover the new expenses.


    The independent Catalonia should take the share of the current state públicadel debt and would face new charges that are now covered with the common box. The payment of pensions, unemployment benefits, the service of foreign policy and military defense structure are just a few examples that have brought out the big banks experts internationally, have made clear they do not believe the But independence chimera.


    "Economically unimaginable»
    The firm Nomura did not hesitate to give a reality check to feint the president of the Generalitat, Artur Mas, "The financial position of Catalonia suggests that a referendum is very unlikely due to its dependence on state funding." The application of Catalonia over 5,000 million Autonomous Liquidity Fund (FLA) to meet expenses such as staff payroll or pay suppliers, is undoubtedly one of the main contradictions of independence challenge. And they exposed the Japanese bank, one of the most influential investment firms in markets: "In terms of market implications of event risk, we believe that a vote on independence is the worst possible scenario."


    "Multiply the image of instability in Spain»
    But the main argument of the Japanese entity is based on the impossibility of the challenge to the practice: "It would be economically unthinkable, especially for the size of the banking sector Catalan 'which, he says, suffer" negative consequences such as the flight of deposits. " And is that the large banks based in Catalonia, La Caixa Sabadell, has long ceased to be Catalans in terms of business and have a significant-and growing-presence in the country. This not only happens to the banks. Flagships of Catalan business as Natural Gas are, in practice, large multinationals operating nationally and internationally.
    The bank Nomura also highlights the damage that the initiative of Artur Mas is doing the whole of Spain at a time of particular sensitivity of the markets. The bank says in fact that progress electotal could "accelerate the dynamics that lead to a ransom demand for Spain." "The events in Catalonia could not come at a worse time for the Government of Mariano Rajoy," he says. However, the entity qualifies: "In our opinion, this is a speech with which, in reality, the region plans to expand its fiscal autonomy." Because that generate noise elections and independence rhetoric merely multiply the image of instability in the country in the face of some investors already reluctant to Spain, concludes the Japanese.


    "A bleak future and disastrous"
    "Can Catalonia leave Spain? The short answer is no. " It's sharp displays the Swiss investment bank UBS in a report distributed among its customers and which removed one by one the economic arguments put forward by More in his pulse independence. The bank assumes that "the Spanish Constitution is quite clear" and Article 149 states that only the central government can authorize a referendum. Yet the bank's exercise goes further: "Assuming that the consultation is carried out and Catalonia finally declares independence, what are the economic forecasts? We think gloomy and disastrous. "


    "The new nation would have great obstacles fisclaes»
    Let's see why. Catalonia's debt guaranteed by Spain at the end of the year will amount to 42,000 million euros, which represents 21% of GDP. "This will become one of the least indebted countries in Europe," he says. Of course, then clarifies: these numbers do not include the division of the assets and liabilities of the entire State. "And that's the key," says UBS. Making a move in proportion, the bank estimates that, really, the independent Catalonia debt would soar to 78.4%, in line with the figure for the whole of Spain.
    The most "tricky" is in Swiss bank plabras the effect that independence would have on the deficit. Catalonia ended 2011 with a deficit of 3.7% of GDP, so that, assuming good numbers provided by the Government of Mas, who argues that this region contributes 8% of GDP in Spain, secession would be a surplus 4% for Catalonia. However, UBS doubts these calculations because "ignore how divided the assets of the State" and "the great tax obstacles" that the new nation would. For starters, Catalonia must meet the payment of more than 7,000 million in debt maturities in 2013 and access to funding markets has closed. In fact, UBS notes that the region has had to resort to Autonomous Liquidity Fund (FLA), "so the workout with investors would be very difficult."


    But the big question for investors would, according to UBS, would be this: "Where would stand financially Catalonia?». The bank itself gives the answer: "In Europe it seems not. It would be out of the EU and the Eurozone, "he says. A major problem when measuring the risk of the new country. "It would be disastrous", says UBS, who claims that he would close the export market and that costs would increase by having to launch a new currency. "The bankruptcy exit of banks and a sharp fall in wealth and income would be very likely" by the unstoppable effect the flight of capital. In addition, local financial institutions such as La Caixa Sabadell or would not have the safety net of the ECB.


    "It would improve the fiscal situation»
    U.S. bank JP Morgan shoots the heart of the separatist discourse: the alleged economic advantages of Catalonia as a nation. «Catalan not improve its fiscal path in an environment of independence," he says. In its recent report entitled "The real challenge asks questions Catalan to Europe", the entity considers that the alleged majority support of the Catalans to secession is not credible, stresses the illegality of an independence referendum in Catalonia, states that, if secession, Catalonia would be outside of the European Union and put black on white CiU actually settle for greater fiscal autonomy for the region.


    However, JP Morgan warning of the hazard of the movement, which can give rise to other regions and even other EU countries, initiate similar claims. The bank also highlights the costs, if a hypothetical independence, should assume that actuamente assumes Catalonia and the Government, as administrative expenses, defense or security. "In a favorable scenario, with minimal transition costs, without producing a significant break trade with the rest of Spain, by reference to the fiscal deficit by the most pro-nationalist interests and estimating the costs assumed by the Government moderately, the benefit of secession would not reach 3% of GDP "he says.

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    1- To copy paste using google translator is not a good idea. It looks really bad.

    2- Some of you, Spaniards, should stop caring about what Catalunya will do without Spain, and better focus on your own future, which is terrible with or without Catalunya according to most scholars.

    3- The ABC, Mundo, País, and similar Spanish press, has never been reliable when refering to Catalunya's independence, since they obviously show things in the way they like them to be, not how things would be (aproximately).

    4- The article fails since the beginning claiming some things as truth, which are far from being demonstrated: Out of the EU and the Euro currency. Actually, most people having important business in Catalunya, specially those who belong to other countries of the EU, laugh out loud at this possibility. ¿Do you really think more than 4000 companies would renounce to their rights in Catalunya? Not easy, none of the countries having interests in Catalunya would agree with this.

    5- Other stupidities: the Spanish debt belongs to Spain, so, first of all, if they want we keep some part of this, they would have to offer something. Without any negociations it's very difficult, not to say impossible. However, while we are part of Spain, we have to pay what it's due, so using the mentioned argument of this money to say it's nonsense to seek independence, it's basically the real nonsense: if we're part of Spain we'll have to pay this, if not, we'll see.

    6- ¿Aren't you, Spaniards who act this way, tired of the ridiculousness emanating from you? Not only economically speaking, but also refering to questions concerning self determination. The whole world can't believe in Spain is not possible to ask the Catalans about their own future. ¿Is that what wou want to show? The international projection of Spain is getting worse since a very long time, and now its brand means nothing but rubbish to most people, specially in the rest of Europe and the EE.UU. Seriously, It's time to solve your problems so, please, stop acting like insane.

    7- Good night! ;)

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    In Spain (Catalonia included of course) have no absolute monarchies or dictators, sorry but you can not give privileges to Catalonia at the expense of other regions. Absolutist dictators and kings may give privileges to Catalonia regions over others, but the Spanish mentality is present in Europe. The Spanish have a mentality where there is no privilege Catalonia why? I understand that Catalonia is accustomed to the privileges of decades, even centuries ago, but times have changed and a country is to ensure that all regions achieved an excellent standard of living.


    It is more convenient to have privileges, but we must work hard for Spain, we have a crisis and there is no room for selfishness. Spanish is now is solidarity and responsibility.


    If longer Spanish Catalonia also longer European, a paradox when you consider that the secessionists always go around bragging that they are more advanced and Europeans and the rest of Spanish are behind, smacks that gives life when someone thinks up!


    If you no longer stop Spanish EU membership Forces throughout the mouth!


    There's the door, get out when they want.

    I love being Spanish and I love Spain, I'm a Democrat, solidarity and desire that all regions of Spain to work well, and also throughout Europe and the world.


    Please archaic and outdated mentalities are not accepted in Spain.

    Certainly foreign people must know what they are really the secessionists, know that the secessionists have many decades by eating the head of the foreign press and publicizing their cause, with lies of course. That is why the foreign press does not quite capture reality very well.


    Here is a sample of historical quotes of these people, hateful nonsense authentic free to their own country, which is Spain:

    "We will be the fourth power in Europe, and Europe is proud to have finally a civilized state in southern Europe ...".
    (Isabel-Clara Simó, writer and candidate number 4 per Barcelona Catalan Solidarity independence in Catalonia regional elections of 2010, predicting the situation of Catalonia secesionada. November 30, 2010).


    "When you turn the cake, that independence is not is a traitor."
    Joel Joan, actor, promoter Sobirania i Progrés platform-organizer of the informal consultations on secession-founder and president of the Catalan Film Academy, the same month subsidized by the tripartite 625,000 euros. September 15, 2010).

    "We charge to anyone who gets in our way."
    (Joan Carter, Reagrupament leader, at the opening of a branch of the separatist party in Gerona. February 27, 2010).


    "The police have to speak Catalan in Catalan, has to stick even in Catalan."
    (Manuel Cuyàs, deputy director of the newspaper El Punt, during a protest against the actions of the Mossos d'Esquadra in a student demonstration which injured several journalists. March 20, 2009).

    "In Catalonia There can`t be quality service commercially without speaking Catalan."
    (Josep-Lluís Carod-Rovira, vice president of the Generalitat. November 7, 2008).

    "The nationalist not feel or want to own no right to live."
    (Javier Maqueda, Basque Nationalist Party senator during his speech as guest speaker at the 18th Congress of the Socialist Party of Mallorca. May 30, 2006).

    "We would be totally incomprehensible that someone from Catalonia would support the candidacy of Madrid 2012".
    (Josep-Lluís Carod-Rovira, vice president of the Generalitat. November 26, 2004).

    "I've tried a lifetime struggle for non-violent way. But I declare here and I say out loud in case I hear a police or prosecutor: I declare the Spanish state enemy and friend of ETA and Batasuna.
    (Lluís Maria Xirinacs, religious and separatist former senator, in his speech at a rally in Barcelona. September 11, 2002).

    "Not included no luxury, but tools that make my job easier. The idea was to make the car a mobile office. "
    (Ernest Benach, concierge and former president of the Catalan regional parliament, on the commotion made ​​in crisis by the installation in his official car a custom wooden desk, television, mp3, bluetooth and footrest, which cost 9276 euros of treasury public. Oct. 27, 2008).

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  17. #67
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    The issue of independence in Catalonia are handling about 6 families related to each other.


    About 400 people live like kings with Catalan autonomy, is the new Catalan aristocracy.


    It makes me laugh at the rich and poor regions, are misapplied terms, in Catalonia the working class has the same salaries garbage in the rest of Spain. This independence is a business for a few people, the people are being manipulated and the concessions made ​​PP or PSOE nazionalistas to have been fatal in the long run in the social and economic spheres since nazionalistas or Catalan rulers have been poor managers of Catalan autonomy.


    Also point out that you can not talk about Spain-Catalonia in terms of bilateralism because these are two states, Catalonia is a region of Spain.


    Spain has 17 autonomous communities, it is wrong to think that in Catalonia and Spain on the other hand, is a part of the confusion and manipulation of language by nazionalistas.

    Catalonia in recent years has been depleted, are performed many boycotts of products made in Catalonia, many multinationals have gone and what little industry there were clearly small Catalan subsidiaries of multinational companies that manufactured small accessories multinationals, in these 30 years there is no distinctly Catalan industry, have not invented anything, nor have they created anything himself. 92 Olympics, enlarged Prat Airport, the TGV, etc has paid all the Spanish state.

    S & P degrades 'junk' the
    rating of Catalonia and alert
    tensions over fiscal pact




    Standard & Poor's also degrades the debt rating of Catalonia. Just as it did last May Moody's, the rating agency has also downgraded today the region note junk bond level, lower it after two steps, from 'BBB-' to 'BB'. The cut comes after the Government confirmed this week to attend the Autonomous Liquidity Fund and EUR 5.023 million claim to the inability to obtain financing itself.
    "The downgrade of Catalonia is motivated by the growing tensions between the region and the central government, and the potential negative impact we believe that these tensions may have on the ability to obtain financing Catalonia", explains in his statement S & P. The agency warning of a weak credit profile of the community, the deterioration of its liquidity and the high dependence on state support to cover its debt maturities.
    S & P warns, in particular, the consequences of which could carry the Catalan Government's claim to change the regional financing system, articulated last July about the fiscal compact. A requirement that "increases the uncertainties" and "can damage the necessary coordination between the regional and central administration for the smooth implementation of the financial assistance from the Government and can weaken the will of the Government to support under certain scenarios."


    You can see that region rich nothing. In the past it was for the privileges that gave the Bourbons and after General Franco. Think that Catalonia had to herself the whole Spanish market and in all that time and with that advantage has not created a distinctly Catalan industry and strong, has simply put their land to multinationals were coming, nothing more.


    Now is angry because times have changed and will not fit a igualitara Spain, want to continue to have privileges and sorry, that's better for them to go, many Spanish would agree to leave, as the Catalan mentality is outdated and archaic and believe in discrimination and the mentality of the rest of Spain is more advanced and is more universal and wants equality and growth for Spain as a whole.


    It's a problem of not adapting to changing times.

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    All the statements you mention are fairly recent and the consequence of the relation with Castille/Spain since the XVIII th century. Even if Catalonia has never been independent, inside the "Aragonese" framework (Corona de Aragón) there was freedom to preserve its languaje and institutions, and since 1714 that depends only on Spain, forbidding everything and everytime they wanted: that includes languaje, traditions, institutions, and laws from the Catalan parliament during democracy. So it's perfectly understandable some people need to express such a disagreement, maybe not always using the proper words, but it's all due to the mentioned problem. Following this way, there's no place for Catalunya inside Spain, and people won't renounce to their will of one day becoming independent.

    The article is interesting Kardu. It points many of the things I already mentioned, specially concerning the EU, the Euro, and the Spanish debt (which belongs exclusively to Spain for more they claim we must assume some part of it). However, it's true that this are hard times, and the process to get independence is not an easy task and will take some time. Outside Catalunya some people could think there's not really a national majority in Catalunya, but wait until 25-N and you'll see what's going on. 3 weeks, that's it :)

    PD: It's very funny when they try to show we're not only rich, but even poor, and they still don't want an independent Catalunya. ¿What's the problem if we're so poor? Much better for you Spaniards! jaja. Sorry to say this but...it's incredibly ridiculous to talk about obvious things such as this one.

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    Yes, yes, more lies and nonsense:


    Columbus was Catalan, La Gioconda is based in the Virgin of Montserrat, E, T, copied Spilberg a cartoonist catalan, what else? please, that desire for prominence


    Yes, yes, and says that independence: "We will be the fourth European power"


    To love SPAIN is to love EUROPE.



    I dedicate this video of one andalusian woman and a murcian man, for you whit the spanish love for you.

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    And now the guy seems to care if Columbus was Catalan and other theories, which no way are presented as truth, not at least by most of the Catalans. Come on, be serious.

    There you are what the Spanish goverment is trying to hide, making Spaniards (like you) believe Spain has total control of the situation: http://www.salaimartin.com/randomtho...-en-la-ue.html

    The article is in Castillian, very easy for you, if someone else wants to read it, possibly google translator will help. It basically points to the obvious, also mentioned in the article posted by Kardu, and some things also published by other international media (not in Spain, time to wonder why). Sala i Martín is, by the way, one of the most popular Catalan economists, and he is well known in the EE.UU. for his good job.

    Time to open your eyes little guy, that's how things work. Most Catalans right now simply laugh out loud at the Spanish threats. The best one can do in such a pathetic scenario, of course.
    Last edited by Knovas; 05-11-12 at 21:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    The issue of independence in Catalonia are handling about 6 families related to each other.


    About 400 people live like kings with Catalan autonomy, is the new Catalan aristocracy.


    It makes me laugh at the rich and poor regions, are misapplied terms, in Catalonia the working class has the same salaries garbage in the rest of Spain. This independence is a business for a few people, the people are being manipulated and the concessions made ​​PP or PSOE nazionalistas to have been fatal in the long run in the social and economic spheres since nazionalistas or Catalan rulers have been poor managers of Catalan autonomy.


    Also point out that you can not talk about Spain-Catalonia in terms of bilateralism because these are two states, Catalonia is a region of Spain.


    Spain has 17 autonomous communities, it is wrong to think that in Catalonia and Spain on the other hand, is a part of the confusion and manipulation of language by nazionalistas.

    Catalonia in recent years has been depleted, are performed many boycotts of products made in Catalonia, many multinationals have gone and what little industry there were clearly small Catalan subsidiaries of multinational companies that manufactured small accessories multinationals, in these 30 years there is no distinctly Catalan industry, have not invented anything, nor have they created anything himself. 92 Olympics, enlarged Prat Airport, the TGV, etc has paid all the Spanish state.

    S & P degrades 'junk' the
    rating of Catalonia and alert
    tensions over fiscal pact




    Standard & Poor's also degrades the debt rating of Catalonia. Just as it did last May Moody's, the rating agency has also downgraded today the region note junk bond level, lower it after two steps, from 'BBB-' to 'BB'. The cut comes after the Government confirmed this week to attend the Autonomous Liquidity Fund and EUR 5.023 million claim to the inability to obtain financing itself.
    "The downgrade of Catalonia is motivated by the growing tensions between the region and the central government, and the potential negative impact we believe that these tensions may have on the ability to obtain financing Catalonia", explains in his statement S & P. The agency warning of a weak credit profile of the community, the deterioration of its liquidity and the high dependence on state support to cover its debt maturities.
    S & P warns, in particular, the consequences of which could carry the Catalan Government's claim to change the regional financing system, articulated last July about the fiscal compact. A requirement that "increases the uncertainties" and "can damage the necessary coordination between the regional and central administration for the smooth implementation of the financial assistance from the Government and can weaken the will of the Government to support under certain scenarios."


    You can see that region rich nothing. In the past it was for the privileges that gave the Bourbons and after General Franco. Think that Catalonia had to herself the whole Spanish market and in all that time and with that advantage has not created a distinctly Catalan industry and strong, has simply put their land to multinationals were coming, nothing more.


    Now is angry because times have changed and will not fit a igualitara Spain, want to continue to have privileges and sorry, that's better for them to go, many Spanish would agree to leave, as the Catalan mentality is outdated and archaic and believe in discrimination and the mentality of the rest of Spain is more advanced and is more universal and wants equality and growth for Spain as a whole.


    It's a problem of not adapting to changing times.
    Are you a racist?...if a people in todays world want to leave a nation because they voted democratically, let them leave. Stop thinking in a feudal way.
    Spain already has a racist way on enforcing castiliano ( spanish language) on everyone.

    The recent papers on Columbus states he was from Barcelona and moved his family to Genoa, he could not even speak genoese, but resorted to franco-provenzal to get by. The lie of his race was because the castilian cortes under Isabella refused to allow basques, Galicians and Catalans to captain ships to discover the new world.
    The castilians where so racist they they prefered genoese bankers and merchants to govern their money than allow catalan cortes and merchants who already had experience.

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    Monica Pont actress and T.V. Catalan said this:

    Pont Interviú naked 'independence Catalans are selfish and parochial'




    Albert Boadella Catalan theater director has said this:
    Albert Boadella: "Catalonia is a society that has become paranoid"



    The whole society is Catalan independence. The threads of the independence move it a few handlers to the Catalan population, as has happened in other moments of history in Europe without going any further. And we all know that a people can be heated and easily manipulated.

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    And finally, the end credits: CONSPIRATION

    You can take it easy and accept what the vast majority in Catalonia wants, or keep repeating baseless claims like an angry parrot. It's up to you, facts won't change: the Catalans WILL decide. Deal with it, accept it, and don't waste your time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    And finally, the end credits: CONSPIRATION

    You can take it easy and accept what the vast majority in Catalonia wants, or keep repeating baseless claims like an angry parrot. It's up to you, facts won't change: the Catalans WILL decide. Deal with it, accept it, and don't waste your time.
    I'm not angry, we laughed a lot with the things they say the separatists. And by the way why are you so interested in not known reality


    catalibán regime does not like free speech, right?

    Kisses and hugs to my dear fellow Knovas. The rest of Spanish Catalonia worship, I want you with us.

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    You mean freedom of expression. You have it in Catalonia: C's with Rivera + Cañas, and PP with Alicia Sanchez Camacho, both repetting the same nonsense everyday. The problem is that they will be the minority on 25-N, they're not fooling anyone with words such as yours. What a pitty xd

    We don't have anything against the Spanish people, rather the government and individuals supporting their actions concerning Catalonia. Simply, it's better to become neighbors, because as brothers this is not working, like it or not. Catalonia will decide, take it easy.

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