Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 21 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 543

Thread: Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,775
    Points
    728,636
    Level
    100
    Points: 728,636, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

    BBC News : Catalonia votes on autonomy plan

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC
    The Spanish region of Catalonia is voting on a new charter that would declare it a nation within Spain.

    If the "yes" vote for greater autonomy is successful, Catalonia, in the north-east, would become one of Europe's most independent regions.

    The draft plan allows for more independence in areas such as how tax is spent and immigration policies.

    Latest opinion polls suggest most Catalans favour the plan, but more than half of all Spaniards reject it.

    The proposal is supported by the Spanish government, Catalonia's ruling Socialists and moderate nationalists, but it is opposed by both the conservative Popular Party and leftists who favour outright independence.
    ...
    I support the independence of Catalonia, as I do for the Basque country of any other region of Europe (Scotland, Corsica, Flanders...) that wishes it while staying in the EU. This is an important step in the process of increasing democracy (government closer to the people) and strengthening regional cultures within Europe. This is how I see Europe evolving toward more decentralised federalism, where the EU is one single market and economy, but each cultural nation-state has a maximum of autonomy for such things as education, taxation and regional laws.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered
    Sensuikan San's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-02-05
    Location
    Nr. Vancouver, Canada
    Age
    76
    Posts
    346


    Ethnic group
    Anglo-Irish-Norse
    Country: Canada



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I agree.

    Catalonia has waited an awful long time for this moment. It was, I believe, promised its autonomy by the Spanish Republican Government (along with the Basque provinces) waaaaay back in the 1930's ... but history intervened!

    Non Pasaran!

    However ... the question does have to be asked ....

    Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?

    Just a thought.

    W
    If you haven't been a Communist by the time you're 40 - then you don't have a heart.

    If you're still a Communist after the age of forty - you don't have a head ....

    (Denis Healey)

    If you're still a communist after the age of sixty ... you're coming to your senses again ....

    (Sensuikan San)

  3. #3
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,775
    Points
    728,636
    Level
    100
    Points: 728,636, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Sensuikan San
    However ... the question does have to be asked ....
    Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?
    Absolutely not. They are even inter-dependent for a proper functionning of the EU. I wish this was explained more properly to the European population. There are still too many people who think that the EU will mean less autonomy for their region and the dissolution of their culture into a more and more uniformised nation that will ultimately speak a common language ! This is all what the EU is NOT about.

    Since the beginning the EU (or EEC...) has always considered the respect of the diversity of Europe's cultural heritage a top priority. Their is a Committee of the Regions, which aim is to increase the participation of European regions in (European) community life. The EU may strife to harmonise the distribution of wealth around Europe, open borders and speak of one powerful voice to the international community... but there is no better guarantee for the preservation of regional cultures and languages than the European Union.

    Here is an example of of it works. Since joining the EU, Belgium has been able to become an extremely decentralised federal country, and it wouldn't even be a problem if they country split in 2, 3 or 4 smaller nation-states, mainly because the EU guarantees that there won't be any borders, there won't be any visa required for people to go to work in Brussels if they live in Flanders or Wallonia, and with the Euro there also won't be a need to change currency all the time. Defence-wise, the EU protects smaller states, so that it is no longer required to have an oversized army for fear of being invaded by the bigger neighbour (like Taiwan and the Koreas now). Politically, there is no need to be a bigger country you get the same number of seats at the EU parliament, and the EU speaks for you in the world.

    Thanks to globalisation (which is NOT EU-related), companies merge across borders and become more international anyway. Looking at Belgian banks, in a just over a decade they have all become international holdings (mostly Belgo-Dutch or Belgo-French). ING and Fortis for instance have branches in numerous European countries and even on other continents... This is just to illustrate that splitting countries in smaller entities doesn't change anything for companies, as in today's world comapnies are no longer national.

    The same would be true for Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even splitting completely from Spain, it wouldn't change anything in terms or borders, currency, visas, companies... So why do it ? It gives the region more cultural autonomy on such things as education, tourism, social security or taxation, and so it makes people happy. Needless to say that "cultural groups" are directly linked to the language they speak. So why be Spanish when your mother-tongue is Catalan or Basque ?

  4. #4
    Seasonal Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Minty's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-02-06
    Location
    Luxembourg
    Age
    34
    Posts
    614
    Points
    15,777
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,777, Level: 38
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 673
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I am human
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I am human

    Ethnic group
    I am citizen of the world, or you could call me Chiwanese
    Country: Luxembourg



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Absolutely not. They are even inter-dependent for a proper functionning of the EU. I wish this was explained more properly to the European population. There are still too many people who think that the EU will mean less autonomy for their region and the dissolution of their culture into a more and more uniformised nation that will ultimately speak a common language ! This is all what the EU is NOT about.

    Since the beginning the EU (or EEC...) has always considered the respect of the diversity of Europe's cultural heritage a top priority. Their is a Committee of the Regions, which aim is to increase the participation of European regions in (European) community life. The EU may strife to harmonise the distribution of wealth around Europe, open borders and speak of one powerful voice to the international community... but there is no better guarantee for the preservation of regional cultures and languages than the European Union.

    Here is an example of of it works. Since joining the EU, Belgium has been able to become an extremely decentralised federal country, and it wouldn't even be a problem if they country split in 2, 3 or 4 smaller nation-states, mainly because the EU guarantees that there won't be any borders, there won't be any visa required for people to go to work in Brussels if they live in Flanders or Wallonia, and with the Euro there also won't be a need to change currency all the time. Defence-wise, the EU protects smaller states, so that it is no longer required to have an oversized army for fear of being invaded by the bigger neighbour (like Taiwan and the Koreas now). Politically, there is no need to be a bigger country you get the same number of seats at the EU parliament, and the EU speaks for you in the world.

    Thanks to globalisation (which is NOT EU-related), companies merge across borders and become more international anyway. Looking at Belgian banks, in a just over a decade they have all become international holdings (mostly Belgo-Dutch or Belgo-French). ING and Fortis for instance have branches in numerous European countries and even on other continents... This is just to illustrate that splitting countries in smaller entities doesn't change anything for companies, as in today's world comapnies are no longer national.

    The same would be true for Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even splitting completely from Spain, it wouldn't change anything in terms or borders, currency, visas, companies... So why do it ? It gives the region more cultural autonomy on such things as education, tourism, social security or taxation, and so it makes people happy. Needless to say that "cultural groups" are directly linked to the language they speak. So why be Spanish when your mother-tongue is Catalan or Basque ?
    I don't agree. I think the Brexit will possibly evoke the Split of the UK, and if Catalans get their independence, Bretons would use this opportunity to try for their independence. Nearly one in five residents of Brittany favour independence from France, according to an opinion poll whose results have sparked a censorship row in the Atlantic coastal region.

    There might then be a split between the Wallonians and the Flemish, then Europe will disintegrate.

    It’s just a matter of time, Britain has set a precedent. Other member states will follow and the whole thing will fall apart. It will happen very soon.



    桃李滿天下

  5. #5
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-16
    Posts
    89


    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
    I don't agree. I think the Brexit will possibly evoke the Split of the UK, and if Catalans get their independence, Bretons would use this opportunity to try for their independence. Nearly one in five residents of Brittany favour independence from France, according to an opinion poll whose results have sparked a censorship row in the Atlantic coastal region.

    There might then be a split between the Wallonians and the Flemish, then Europe will disintegrate.

    It’s just a matter of time, Britain has set a precedent. Other member states will follow and the whole thing will fall apart. It will happen very soon.
    I had no idea that Brittany had a movement of their own. That's interesting - what does this suggest; a resurrection of the Breton language? I know the French government were very harsh on Bretons. Some of my ancestors were Bretons. So I am quite concerned with this movement. At this point I am indifferent, but if France is willing (which I doubt) would they give it up peacefully?

    Boy, Brexit was pretty shocking. I wonder if Spain can handle it the best they can. Another mass civil war or Balkanization like Yugoslavia is not what we want to see, though. I would hate for another Spanish civil war to come out of this. It would be quite painful. That is why Brexit (many will disagree) but I think Brexit could have stirred citizens across Europe to get angry and a civil unrest to materialize.

  6. #6
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-16
    Posts
    89


    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Catalans have the chance to get independence - that is clear. I am indifferent mostly to it, but probably they should stay. (at least for now?)

    Basques, on the other hand ... I would say they have no chance. A Basque independent state seems too barren and feeble enough to prosper independently.... They would have to get a big nation like USA or Russia to support that. (Americans are not going to waste their taxpayers money on a small, almost insignificant territory of Spain just to get independent...let me tell you that for sure. If Basques think that, and that Americans are their friends; they are dreaming.) Perhaps a non-EU country like Britain itself. But to the contrary, Britain might get into a quarrel with Spain. British aren't going to be dumb enough to start a war in Europe just to take care of a small region that wants to become it's own country, either.

  7. #7
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-16
    Posts
    89


    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
    I don't agree. I think the Brexit will possibly evoke the Split of the UK, and if Catalans get their independence, Bretons would use this opportunity to try for their independence. Nearly one in five residents of Brittany favour independence from France, according to an opinion poll whose results have sparked a censorship row in the Atlantic coastal region.

    There might then be a split between the Wallonians and the Flemish, then Europe will disintegrate.

    It’s just a matter of time, Britain has set a precedent. Other member states will follow and the whole thing will fall apart. It will happen very soon.
    I had an English friend who was pro-Brexit and he loved it. But I am wondering if this is a big mistake. It seems like a blow to EU and the rest of Europe; and tensions can rise more. If the EU were to break up, it could be similar to a civil war, even if it isn't a real nation. It could break-up all other nations in Europe if the EU dissolves. People will be more disgruntled, more successful economies. More people (i.e. Basques) having an explanation to get away from the "evil Spanish" who are "bringing down their economy" apparently. (The Basques really have no understanding of economics whatsoever; and have just gotten lucky because of becoming more municipal, business-oriented and civilized. (Bilbao, after post-WW2 baby boom etc.)

    (In my opinion; Basques are fixated on Marxism and Socialism when it is the reality that Madrid has given them the privileges to be economically successful. Imagine the Basque country without a centralizing power, and as small as Slovenia and under a socialist state. And also - unarmed. It won't be like Switzerland at all - these people wouldn't last long. Immigrants would take them over, and people would stop buying from a Basque independent state. Nobody recognizes what Basques are about. Even thinking about it now, Spain might not even need 'em, even if they did go independent. But I think I digress.)

    I think Portugal and a Spanish merge would be a good idea though. The Portuguese and Spanish need to reconcile their differences; it would be very beneficial if both nations became one. The Portuguese might get jealous though - because it's like submitting to Spain once and for all. Their biggest rival - this is what they overlook when it comes to their nationalism...)

  8. #8
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-16
    Posts
    89


    Country: USA - Louisiana



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The same would be true for Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even splitting completely from Spain, it wouldn't change anything in terms or borders, currency, visas, companies... So why do it ? It gives the region more cultural autonomy on such things as education, tourism, social security or taxation, and so it makes people happy. Needless to say that "cultural groups" are directly linked to the language they speak. So why be Spanish when your mother-tongue is Catalan or Basque ?
    Old post, but, in my opinion at least; it's not in terms of them and their mother tongue, or distinct ancient cultures. This is more superficial. If Basque or Catalan become extinct it is for the greater good of Spain. Not necessarily a bad thing. If their own culture (Basque/Catalan) is used politically it degrades into selfishness and superficiality; and thus more separatism and hatred. I am sure that some Spanish people are fascinated by both cultures; but it isn't worth the effort in saving them, if it causes more social disorder in Europe. France wouldn't appreciate it, as well.

    In order for those two regions (in my opinion) to become free as a necessity; it would be better for Spain to have a healthier form of management and economy.

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,506
    Points
    28,824
    Level
    52
    Points: 28,824, Level: 52
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 926
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Sensuikan San View Post
    I agree.

    Catalonia has waited an awful long time for this moment. It was, I believe, promised its autonomy by the Spanish Republican Government (along with the Basque provinces) waaaaay back in the 1930's ... but history intervened!

    Non Pasaran!

    However ... the question does have to be asked ....

    Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?

    Just a thought.

    �W����
    Not really, if you give the people the right to self government they will be able to work with each other more. If you force oeike to live together under one government it will always happen that the majority group will try to rule over the minorities. This is one of the main reasons why the Middle East is still not much progressed.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Location
    Newcastle upon Tyne
    Posts
    54
    Points
    1,811
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,811, Level: 11
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 39
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    White (Nordic)
    Country: UK - England



    I totally agree that Catalonia should by all means get its independence, but not now. Maybe when they create a United States Of Europe they could apply for 'statehood' just like I think Scotland, Bavaria, Corsica, the Basque country, Flanders etc.

    Regional cultures are dying off and everybody knows it, why else would there be so much worry about it and so many regional and cultural protection? I think we all need to assimilate into a wider European society.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Dinarid's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-05-16
    Location
    Islamic-occupied Croatian Herzegovina
    Posts
    413
    Points
    2,856
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,856, Level: 15
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 194
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b – Dinaric
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Herzegovinan Croat
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Brett142 View Post
    I totally agree that Catalonia should by all means get its independence, but not now. Maybe when they create a United States Of Europe they could apply for 'statehood' just like I think Scotland, Bavaria, Corsica, the Basque country, Flanders etc.

    Regional cultures are dying off and everybody knows it, why else would there be so much worry about it and so many regional and cultural protection? I think we all need to assimilate into a wider European society.
    That is because EU federalists want to destroy these cultures. The popularity of independence movements shows why that won't work, thankfully.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran25000 Experience Points
    Carlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-09-11
    Posts
    1,949
    Points
    29,871
    Level
    53
    Points: 29,871, Level: 53
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 979
    Overall activity: 76.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V22>YF66572
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5c1

    Ethnic group
    España
    Country: Spain



    It is not fair to condemn and deprive generations of the cultures of the great European nations and force them to regionalism, that takes a toll. I do not know if you are informed of the activities and lies that holds the nationalist Catalan regionalist policy. I do not think you have no idea what they are doing.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    I agree with maciano.

    BTW, it seems the UK will leave the EU after today's vote.......80 MPs of Camerons party voted against him to get the UK out
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I wouldn't want to be part of the EU, that is a joke of an institution.

  15. #15
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    71,186
    Level
    82
    Points: 71,186, Level: 82
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I wouldn't want to be part of the EU, that is a joke of an institution.
    You want an independent Catalonia with its own currency and no EU membership? Would it at least be in the Schengen Area, like Switzerland and Norway? How popular is that position in Catalonia? (Sorry for the barrage of questions; I'm genuinely interested in this topic.)

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Cimmerianbloke's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-06-11
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    332
    Points
    4,156
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,156, Level: 18
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 94
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Latin-Germanic
    Country: Germany - Berlin



    I have lived three years in Tarragona, and even though I am a convinced European, I support Catalan autonomy with all my heart. There's all over Spain, but mainly in Madrid and in Andalusia a very strong anti-catalan feeling bordering on racism. Catalonia is very much in the same position as Flanders, language problems, massive amounts of money paid to keep other communities afloat, and a deep desire to have its destiny finally back into her own hands. The only difference being that Catalonia is full of immigrants (Spaniards and from abroad) who feel ostracised because they do not speak, and do not learn, Catalan. CiU, the party in charge, is aware of the chance being part of the EU is, and I cannot imagine them pulling away. As in other hot spots in Europe, they want to push for a referendum that would allow them to declare their independence. Note that the current economic situation might speed up the process if the PP candidate wins the election next year, as the polls seem to indicate.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-11
    Location
    Somewhere in Spain
    Posts
    139

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Ethnic group
    Spanish (from Spain of course, not Mexican and such)
    Country: Spain - Andorra



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Given that the future Spanish government will be the Spanish right wing it's extremely odd that Cataluña will get the independence. It would have been more plausible during the weak administration of Mr Zapatero. As for those worried about things such as "preservation of regional cultures" why is it necessary to commit seccession from Spain to achieve that goal? Catalan is already an official language in Catalonia, Valencia (called Valencian there) and Majorca. Cervantes institutes around the globe teach Spanish and also the regional tongues like Catalan. It would make more sense that Occitania splits off from France, as Occitan is nowadays extremelly close to being an extinct language due to the hyper-centralization of the French Government which does not recognise the cultural diversity of France.

  18. #18
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Cimmerianbloke's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-06-11
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    332
    Points
    4,156
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,156, Level: 18
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 94
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Latin-Germanic
    Country: Germany - Berlin



    Three days before the vote in 2004, the PP was given as winner. Then the attacks at Atocha happened, the rest is history... I think Spain needs the PP in charge, as the socialists haven't a clue about how the situation got that bad. Zapatero took publicly responsability in order to give Rubalcaba a chance to distance himself, even though all odds point to an overwhelming victory of the PP. The PP is notoriously anti-secessionist, and anti-catalan but they will have to deal with the autonomic regional governments, and CiU in Cataluña has the best cards to get what it wants.
    Considering Occitania to get independence is no comparison, as no political party lobbies for it. The occitan promotion language organisations have problems founding students to fill their classes, never mind founding a secessionist party...

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Are we all saying here that if a people vote in a big majority to get independence, they cannot have it. ?

    Do we live in the 21 st century or as I suspect do we all live in a "modern" feudal system which practices royaly and serfs.? a caste system like India has

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-11
    Location
    Somewhere in Spain
    Posts
    139

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Ethnic group
    Spanish (from Spain of course, not Mexican and such)
    Country: Spain - Andorra



    Quote Originally Posted by Cimmerianbloke View Post
    Three days before the vote in 2004, the PP was given as winner. Then the attacks at Atocha happened, the rest is history... I think Spain needs the PP in charge, as the socialists haven't a clue about how the situation got that bad. Zapatero took publicly responsability in order to give Rubalcaba a chance to distance himself, even though all odds point to an overwhelming victory of the PP. The PP is notoriously anti-secessionist, and anti-catalan but they will have to deal with the autonomic regional governments, and CiU in Cataluña has the best cards to get what it wants.
    Considering Occitania to get independence is no comparison, as no political party lobbies for it. The occitan promotion language organisations have problems founding students to fill their classes, never mind founding a secessionist party...
    Islamic attack in 2004 that benefited the socialist party was unexpected and similiar circumstance won't happen again. You can bet the righ wing will win Spanish elections and separatists will have no chance to promote their agendas as they will no have direct influence on the Government as they have right now because the socialist party did need their votes on the Parliament to pass the laws. I see this post is five years old. So where is Catalonia's independence? I can't see it. Nothing has changed even a little bit from then for practical purposes, Catalonia is the same Spanish region with the same degree of self-government as before, which is a lot compared to French regions. Well, something did, now the Spanish Constitutional Court has decided that the Catalan language must be the language to be used at schools alongside Spanish. So I would say secession in Catalonia is losing momentum. I agree that if big majority of Catalans want to commit secession sonner or later they will achieve it, but get your facts right, there is no majority of Catalans who desire being independent right now. Separatists are very loud but not majority.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,444
    Points
    9,065
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,065, Level: 28
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    ¿Not a majority? ¿are you sure? Some people seem to forget easily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlSI1GxNjs (10/07/2010)

    The largest crowd of people ever concentred in the whole Spain. It's too bad the crisis is kicking hard now, but this will surely emerge again.

    Having an agenda is try to hide or minimize things. Time to think about it ;)

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-11
    Location
    Somewhere in Spain
    Posts
    139

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Ethnic group
    Spanish (from Spain of course, not Mexican and such)
    Country: Spain - Andorra



    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    ¿Not a majority? ¿are you sure? Some people seem to forget easily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlSI1GxNjs (10/07/2010)The largest crowd of people ever concentred in the whole Spain. It's too bad the crisis is kicking hard now, but this will surely emerge again.Having an agenda is try to hide or minimize things. Time to think about it ;)
    I'm willing to keep a discussion with a separatist as long as he keeps some intellectual integrity and respects facts. You know as well as me that separatists are a minority in Catalonia. A sizeable minority like 20%? Maybe, but still a minority. You can bring up whatever survey made by separatist parties, but you must acknowledge that the best survey to know the will of Catalans is free elections, and no separatist party has won a single regional election in Catalonia, unless you try to convince me that the PSC, a branch of Spanish national socialist party for practical purposes, is a separatist party. No, it isn't and CiU who rules now regional Government isn't separatist as well, furthermore its leaders like Duran y Lleida talk now about collaborating with the Popular Party to overcome the economic crisis that affects the whole contry, of course Catalonia too. They may ask for a referendum timidly from time to time, but they use that just as a strategy to press the central government and get more privileges, they don't push for independence seriously and never will. You delude yourself thinking to the contrary. The only chance for Catalonia to commit seccession is separatist ERC winning the elections, and that is a sci-fi scenario so far. Bye.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,444
    Points
    9,065
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,065, Level: 28
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Oh! talking about democratic elections with an incredibly high percent of abstention (equal to joke)...good point, yes xd. For you to understand: quite people who wants independence prefers not to vote in elections, simply because they don't feel themselfs represented by the ERC stupidity or other political options. Typical Spanish error to think ERC represents true independentism...keep dreaming, keep.

    For this reason I didn't mention the referendums. Because according to them, vast majority of Catalans want independence, even the one made in Barcelona. However, there's also lack of participation there.

    So considering this facts, I think the most objective way to measure this at the moment, is popular movilization. And like it or not, the Catalan manifestation was the biggest one ever made in Spain (possibly in Europe), wich for sure means something. And sorry for you: it won't be the last time you have to see more than a million Catalans in the street breaking all records.

    This is just the beggining.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-11
    Location
    Somewhere in Spain
    Posts
    139

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Ethnic group
    Spanish (from Spain of course, not Mexican and such)
    Country: Spain - Andorra



    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Oh! talking about democratic elections with an incredibly high percent of abstention (equal to joke)...good point, yes xd. For you to understand: quite people who wants independence prefers not to vote in elections, simply because they don't feel themselfs represented by the ERC stupidity or other political options. Typical Spanish error to think ERC represents true independentism...keep dreaming, keep.For this reason I didn't mention the referendums. Because according to them, vast majority of Catalans want independence, even the one made in Barcelona. However, there's also lack of participation there.So considering this facts, I think the most objective way to measure this at the moment, is popular movilization. And like it or not, the Catalan manifestation was the biggest one ever made in Spain (possibly in Europe), wich for sure means something. And sorry for you: it won't be the last time you have to see more than a million Catalans in the street breaking all records. This is just the beggining.
    Those referendums you talk about had zero legitimacy . They were not recognised officially and were a complete fraud. For example 15 y.o. boys and girls were allowed to vote. In Barcelona, the least nationalist part of Catalonia, participation was 20%, according to the people who organised it. True numbers are probably much lower. But I'm talking about regular elections, where all parties concur and there is transparency. No separatist Catalan party has won so far, so most of Catalans are not separatists. Please accept facts and democracy, separatis lose all elections in Catalonia and always will because separatists are not majority in Catalonia. Organising parallel referendums manipulated by separatists where there existed even duplicated votes won't change that.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,444
    Points
    9,065
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,065, Level: 28
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    The referendums are the same democratic (free) as elections and, as I said, the lack of participation is evident in both. So you are the one who must accept facts, and understand that ERC does not represent nothing but a small portion of independentism in Catalonia.

    I see you keep ignoring the hugest crowd of people ever seen claiming independence in the street. Now go and tell the people this was also manipulated, come on XD
    PD: Nice nick. I'd better not ask why this choice

Page 1 of 21 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Return to accuse U.S.A. of infringing Catalonia Human Rights
    By Carlitos in forum EU politics & government
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 13-04-11, 01:10
  2. Who are the most aggressive Nation?
    By edao in forum History & Civilisations
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: 11-04-11, 20:09
  3. What is a nation-state ?
    By Invictus_88 in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 03-09-10, 10:27

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •