Politics Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

[Carlos]

I am a bit angry with the way Madrid has handled this situation: Because, I think that the poll should have been legal. If I were the centralized government (Madrid) and in control of Spain (in terms of strategy) I believe there would probably be no choice but to let Catalonia go, if they had voted YES in a legal referendum. If the Catalonians voted No, then Spain would have absolutely nothing to worry about; at least for a while.

I do not mean to make people upset; but I believe Madrid being provocative towards Catalonia is having dire consequences: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30111044

Catalonia seems like it may be destined to go. Catalonia already has an intense nationalist movement and is a pretty wealthy region. And, compared to the oppressive government of Spain with a falling economy; Madrid's provocative intervention into Catalonia will only bring more division. And Spain as a whole just simply doesn't have the resources or respect, to support this region anymore. I see Madrid has not handled this situation well and the consequences of this may be drastic.

All in all, there were much bigger cons to Madrid not letting Catalonia have a legal polling. There would be more pros to letting Catalonia have a fair and legal polling referendum, rather than an illegal one. If you recall your history, Slovenia broke away from Yugoslavia with an 88% of the population voting for independence. (Catalonia is 80.5%) But I believe Yugoslavia had deemed the Slovenian referendum illegal.

According to Rajoy, we have witnessed "a profound failure of the independence project." The president has shown the limited mobilization achieved Artur Mas, since two thirds of Catalans missed their call for vote on Sunday, even as their own accounts. "It was a demonstration of weakness, not strength." After much noise and so much money spent campaign, said Rajoy, is that two thirds of Catalans did not want to play along Artur Mas.

Rajoy insisted that Artur Mas will gain no political advantage for their separatist challenge, and has defended the government's actions from the beginning. "The government has defended the law, has taken decisions proportionality and moderation.

The Senior Prosecutor of Catalonia this morning the lawsuit against the president of the Generalitat, Artur Mas, and against the vice president, Joana Ortega, and the Minister of Education, Irene Rigau, for his role in organizing the so-called "participatory process "9-N. The offenses for which the accused are trespass, disobedience, embezzlement and usurpation of its functions.

In Spain the bizarre Catalan separatists have become a classic internet humor.

 

[Sile]

This data sharing is equivalent to 31.77% of the 6,224,140 people, according to the National Statistics Institute, are officially surveyed in Catalonia with more than 16 years, the limit set by the Government to participate in the consultation this 9-N.

Citizen participation in the independence talks on Sunday in Catalonia low 25 points on the regional elections held in this community in 2012 and down 22 points from the overall 2011.

Less than general
The percentage turnout of 31.77%-extracted from the INE statistics are well below regular participation in Catalonia, according to data collected by the agency Servimedia the latest regional and general elections.

A complete failure, was practically only vote for these elections the pro-independence voters, the vast majority of the Catalan population stayed at home and not be interested in showing the indepedencia.


The data speak for themselves is evident.

Where is the link for these fantasy figures from Madrid ???

 

[Carlos]

Where is the link for these fantasy figures from Madrid ???

Do you doubt it? It was a failure. Besides the kids vote, voters, aged 16, an illegal immigrant vote, who voted repeatedly. It is an international scandal. A hot flash. The great Catalan ciudadadania stayed home, just went to vote on independence electorate that does everything her master commands him, now a human V, now a human chain now all out on the street, but most do nothing this, stay at home quietly.

You live in the antipodes of Spain, I'm beginning to believe that the News has can reach out to a confused, you do not have a real vision of my country or of the Catalan region.


70%-30%

And I repeat and remind you that voting was 30%, which included children, people 16 years illegal immigrants and people who voted repeatedly.

Son bizarradas independentistas.
Todavía estamos riendo en el resto de España.

Por favor asegúrese que le llegan las noticias frescas a su lejano país, no se deje manipular por medios separatistas. En Cataluña, El periódico, La Vanguardia, TV3 e.t.c. están subvencionados por Artus Mas y su gobierno, no lea basura del régimen.

España es mucha España.

El 70% se quedó en casa confortablemente. Oh mamma mía!!! ¿Se da cuenta?

¿Lo ha entendido o se lo repito?

 

[Sile]

Do you doubt it? It was a failure. Besides the kids vote, voters, aged 16, an illegal immigrant vote, who voted repeatedly. It is an international scandal. A hot flash. The great Catalan ciudadadania stayed home, just went to vote on independence electorate that does everything her master commands him, now a human V, now a human chain now all out on the street, but most do nothing this, stay at home quietly.

You live in the antipodes of Spain, I'm beginning to believe that the News has can reach out to a confused, you do not have a real vision of my country or of the Catalan region.


70%-30%

And I repeat and remind you that voting was 30%, which included children, people 16 years illegal immigrants and people who voted repeatedly.

Son bizarradas independentistas.
Todavía estamos riendo en el resto de España.

Por favor asegúrese que le llegan las noticias frescas a su lejano país, no se deje manipular por medios separatistas. En Cataluña, El periódico, La Vanguardia, TV3 e.t.c. están subvencionados por Artus Mas y su gobierno, no lea basura del régimen.

España es mucha España.

El 70% se quedó en casa confortablemente. Oh mamma mía!!! ¿Se da cuenta?

¿Lo ha entendido o se lo repito?

i get this from newspaper

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20141110/54419122198/resultados-9n.html


you give me your racist views


you know when nationalism began around 1800, lies multiplied ten fold by the governments


Edit:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29982960

I will ask again, where did you get your racist data?

 

[Carlos]

The media in Catalonia are subsidized by the regional government of the separatist nationalism bone, are not reliable means. Separatism is a minority vote was only 30% and low when you consider that voting were children, teenagers also 16, illegal immigrants, foreign more people vote repeatedly. A failure.

It is the reality of Catalonia, the majority was not interested in the independence movement, is moving separatist politics to the electorate to get privileges at the expense of other regions.


Not wanting to admit it is their problem not mine.

 

[Knovas]

Carlos tendentiously ignores the fact that there's always more than 30% of the Catalan population who NEVER votes. The total number of votes PSC, PP, C's, PxC, UPyD accounts for approximately 1.3 million. So I highly doubt his pro-Spanish friends can win referendum. No need to say that not all PSC is against independence, even there was people in PxC (Fascists, though) who created another political party in favor of independence.

I will report the moderators myself because I think they missed some comments.

 

[Melancon]

Carlos tendentiously ignores the fact that there's always more than 30% of the Catalan population who NEVER votes. The total number of votes PSC, PP, C's, PxC, UPyD accounts for approximately 1.3 million. So I highly doubt his pro-Spanish friends can win referendum. No need to say that not all PSC is against independence, even there was people in PxC (Fascists, though) who created another political party in favor of independence.

I will report the moderators myself because I think they missed some comments.

I think we need to let him (Carlos) have his own thoughts and opinions on the matter. Sorry Knovas.

Don't ban him Moderators; let's keep him here.

 

[Sile]

I think we need to let him (Carlos) have his own thoughts and opinions on the matter. Sorry Knovas.

Don't ban him Moderators; let's keep him here.

sometimes there needs to be a sacrifice............but I do not wear the black hood!!!

 

[Knovas]

I think we need to let him (Carlos) have his own thoughts and opinions on the matter. Sorry Knovas.

Don't ban him Moderators; let's keep him here.

To call people in favor of independence Catalibans or nazis it is not an opinion, my friend. In fact, it is an infraction. Case closed.

 

[Kardu]

I agree with Knovas. Plus Carlos is extremely biased and the way he expresses himself nullifies his few valid arguments.

 

[Melancon]

To call people in favor of independence Catalibans or nazis it is not an opinion, my friend. In fact, it is an infraction. Case closed.

It's only an insult if you make it to be one though. Carlos has indeed tried to reason peacefully with the people here; on the other hand. Like, I'm not for you guys or against you, I'm just stating a fact.

 

[Alan]

While talking about Nazi ideology and Spain/Catalonia.

I came across this article a few days ago.

http://rt.com/in-motion/208143-madrid-franco-death-anniversary/

Nazi-saluting supporters celebrate General Franco's anniversary

 

[Melancon]

While talking about Nazi ideology and Spain/Catalonia.

I came across this article a few days ago.

http://rt.com/in-motion/208143-madrid-franco-death-anniversary/

Nazi-saluting supporters celebrate General Franco's anniversary

I must admit, these demonstrations aren't very healthy to the Hispanic/Iberian culture. They will only cause further tensions and division. I see from Spain's point of view (or Madrid's, however you want to view this prospect.) that they are acting more out of aggression rather than trying to respect the Catalan people.

It is beginning to get out of hand and I have been warning people of the dire consequences of these events. (Catalonian flag burning, Spanish central-government intimidation and threats, Neo-Nazis and Fascists.) We don't want to see something like Yugoslavia and the Balkanic wars, in all likelihood; and of course innocents killed. And Portugal being in the midst of this, would really make it worse. Would this situation turn into a civil war, over economy and such; Spain should be a little more shrewd and strategic in their handling of the country. I predict their intimidation and harassment of Catalonia is only a zeitgeist and premonition of bad things to come. Will the current situation turn into something really worse? Spain and their government are acting with overconfidence; (in my opinion) and the centralized government should focus more on their failing economy; rather than trying to intimidate regions such as Catalonia. If Catalonia breaks apart, and there is some internal conflict/civil war. The new independent Catalonia, and Spain; as well as countries surrounding Spain (most notably Portugal) will have to have a run for their money, in order to protect their economy.

If Portugal was smart, they should side with Spain (should there be any conflict). If Portugal acts as a belligerent, things can get really bad and wild. Both Portugal and Spain are countries with failing economies; and if they do not learn to respect each other, or work together; the Iberian peninsula could be heading on the path to some massive devastation and destruction.

I have personally never seen Spain so insane and divided before. (In May, the North voted Right-wing and the South voted Left-wing Socialist; while the Catalonians and Basques voted for their own nationalist parties.) There are a lot of angry and confused people. Quite obviously and understandably. And Madrid will have to take a lot of effort into trying to restore the country. (Even if it means getting Catalonia independence and breaking off that region- because there are more cons to a civil war than letting a region split into a nation peacefully.)

 

[Carlos]

Keep in mind that the Catalan nationalism has over 30 years doing false advertising abroad. Spain is a democratic country, the central government is not so central, we are a country of autonomies where these autonomies have reached unthinkable levels of self-governments in other countries, including Europe itself. It is true that time privileges to regions with independence aspirations already demonstrated after mock referémdum the 9N in Catalonia who are a minority over. I do not know how things look from Louisiana or from New Zealand, but it is clear that are very distorted views of reality. The regionalist nationalist policies intended only small privileges and its threat to the state is the separation, but when the truth are a minority in their own regions. Freedom is the same for all Spaniards, is the mentality of modern Spanish, after centuries of privileges these small regions have nothing, invented nothing, they have a strong own industry, why keep giving privileges? The Spanish policy is in the process of transformation after recent corruption scandals, and the catalan policy is outdated, in the past, inactive, asking and asking, unable incapable of creating anything, just threatening the state's independence, and the moment of truth 30% and traps.


Make no mistake when he speaks of Spain / Catalonia, you can not talk bilateralemente of Spain / Catalonia as if it were two states. It's not real. It is a range with a nationalist government trying to arm wrestle the state on the grounds of independence and thanks to temperance Rajoy has shown that they are a minority. There are many things to do in Spain and it would be better to work shoulder to shoulder not be thinking about oneself, or feel more rights than any other citizen and especially not skip the laws and rules. Artur Mas will give an account and abide by the law.

 

[Melancon]

Keep in mind that the Catalan nationalism has over 30 years doing false advertising abroad. Spain is a democratic country, the central government is not so central, we are a country of autonomies where these autonomies have reached unthinkable levels of self-governments in other countries, including Europe itself. It is true that time privileges to regions with independence aspirations already demonstrated after mock referémdum the 9N in Catalonia who are a minority over. I do not know how things look from Louisiana or from New Zealand, but it is clear that are very distorted views of reality. The regionalist nationalist policies intended only small privileges and its threat to the state is the separation, but when the truth are a minority in their own regions. Freedom is the same for all Spaniards, is the mentality of modern Spanish, after centuries of privileges these small regions have nothing, invented nothing, they have a strong own industry, why keep giving privileges? The Spanish policy is in the process of transformation after recent corruption scandals, and the catalan policy is outdated, in the past, inactive, asking and asking, unable incapable of creating anything, just threatening the state's independence, and the moment of truth 30% and traps.


Make no mistake when he speaks of Spain / Catalonia, you can not talk bilateralemente of Spain / Catalonia as if it were two states. It's not real. It is a range with a nationalist government trying to arm wrestle the state on the grounds of independence and thanks to temperance Rajoy has shown that they are a minority. There are many things to do in Spain and it would be better to work shoulder to shoulder not be thinking about oneself, or feel more rights than any other citizen and especially not skip the laws and rules. Artur Mas will give an account and abide by the law.

You are probably right, in the sense I admit I do not know how well Spain is structured; especially since I am an ocean across from you here in Louisiana. And you are a native Spaniard. So, for me it would be kind of silly to hypothesize an inner conflict or a civil war, as a foreign spectator. But given the data and info, analysis etc. that I know about Spain, it seems like the possibilities of an internal conflict could very well be a high possibility.

I have heard that if Catalonians get independence; the Basques have threatened to get independence illegally. And I have also heard that Galicia is about the least technologically advanced region in Spain; I know their nationalist movements aren't as lively, aggressive or acknowledged as the other two (Catalonia and Basque country) But the Galician citizens are poor, in poverty; and they are tired of waiting. I would wonder in a scenario, if Nationalism would win in the Iberian peninsula, and Catalonia got independence. Would that cause the Basque country to try to get independence too? And maybe the Galicians? The Galicians have a nationalist movement themselves; and I could very well see in the future and would not be surprised if there was a possibility they were annexed to Portugal. Galicians and Portuguese are very culturally related.

Something to think about.

I also believe that Andalusians and Canary Islanders have their own Nationalist movements. But they aren't as acknowledged as the Catalonian and Basque movements, and the more obscure Galician nationalist movement. I've heard from several Andalusians (personally, myself) that they don't even view Andalusia as Spain either; much like the Catalans. And they view it as Andalusia, with an Andalusian "Spanish" language. Do you have anything to say about that? (Or is this just propaganda?)

 

[Carlos]

^^
There are 0% possibility of civil war. Right now the Spanish policy is in full conversion as I said above. There is only one way and that is to honesty and eradication of political corruption. The ordinary citizen is outraged at the continuing corruption scandals, the rest of Spaniards live as a lesser evil show weakness Artur Mas has exercised continuously mobilize their electorate intended to blackmail the state and thus get privileges, an sad and lamentable failure and consequences that will have to explain to the judges involved, as I say in the street care about other things as may be unemployment, corruption or evictions. The regionalist policy is doomed to failure as already seen because it is not progress, a Catalonia hypothetical independent in Europe only make what he does with the state government: ask and ask, its only arguments that have tongues that are different and better!What can I say, everyone has a tongue! and be better and you have to prove they have not done, corruption in Catalonia was daunting, and now to top it was attacked democracy addition to disobey laws, the end to the ridiculous.

On nationalism in the Basque country, well just tell her father is Sabino Arana, look out there where it mattered in nationalism and read your ridiculous comments and understand that this is the future.

¿Galician nationalism?

Yes should be 4 cats, everything sticks.
¿Galicia and Portugal?
Water and oil. The Galicians are very rare, you can hear two Galician arguing, first is that there appears an argument and the second is that you never know who is in dispute with whom.


All Galicians who have met are very Spaniards have never spoken of Portugal. And do not forget that when a Spanish mentally think of Spain in his mind sees the map of the Iberian Peninsula.



Do canaries?
In any Spanish region could have believed volunteers and delusions of a major European nation, and those who have more reason and motive for they who are not for this work, is something retrograde.


Are minorities independence of any region, political ideas that exploit and manipulate some of the people following guidelines usually based on lies. Reinvent history, lying on economic data and created a fictitious enemy of the people fall into that trap and rate them and gain power, but I think these parochialism are out of place and as I told you the mentality of modern Spanish is another and independence have stalled in themselves. What would they do in Europe? just as they do with the Spanish State, ask and ask, manipulate and try to take it all to the detriment of other regions in Europe and many countries and regions are also entitled to part of the investments reach them. The future lies not selfishness, moving towards a more equitable world, where man sees in man his brother and also want prosperity, sharing and walking together, if not, we will all die.

 

[Carlos]

Change your chip, this is not a conflict between two nations or states. This is one of the greatest nations who created mankind, Spain and some smaller political bourgeois regionalist nationalist enriched by nationalist polítcia who manage their electorate as they want and it is true they have achieved many accomplishments for their regions on especially in the hambito of education but in the bad sense and to harm, such as the issue of linguistic immersion in Catalonia where we let the side to Castilian or Spanish, national and international language spoken in the world and is also the common language of all Spaniards, is a stupid achievement of regionalist nationalism in Catalonia, but sold to the electorate as a great achievement, the world upside down, sell involution. In Catalonia there are high rates of unemployment, there is no industry itself, many national and international companies have moved to Madrid since empezá this pulse of small and minority separatist class, yet still a minority in power since CIU he turned to the independence to see if getting your purposes, but it has not happened, the central government has no fear of these threats and attempts to undermine democracy.

Think that is people have falsely created the need to vote a nationalist referendum finally have done and gone to vote their electorate and a thousand snares have remained a minority, very active because they do everything they ask for your love, obey any which are commanded to make a human chain, make a giant V, but after we have seen they are a minority, most do not even want an independence referendum because they are free.

I assure you, health in Catalonia is fatal, nothing works, carried million and lost time on nonsense

 

[Sile]

Keep in mind that the Catalan nationalism has over 30 years doing false advertising abroad. Spain is a democratic country,

There is no such thing as a democratic country, a democratic country would allow an ethnic indigenous race within its borders to vote without interference and accept the decision of the people. If that decision is independence, then without bloodshed the nation should comply.

Even England did wrong in interfering in the scottish referentum by making huge promises to the scottich people to stay in the Union. Now England need to make good on the promises..........just watch Wales, cornwall etc ask for their "special, same as scotland promises".

The only country that comes close to being a democracy in this indepence scenarios was the czech - slovak split.

Carlos, you can have you fantasy dreams that Spain is a democracy, but in reality it is not

 

[Melancon]

Well I think it is about time for me to probably dismiss myself from this thread. It seems like everything has been said; and this debate is starting to become more and more repetitive and stagnant. And it seems that some of my questions were not well reciprocated with reasonable and concrete answers. So I am becoming dissatisfied.

Carlos, I really hate to disagree with you brother; but I am beginning to believe you are holding an agenda of your own. As Knovas, Kardu and Sile seemingly have suggested; and I believe I have to be added to the list of skeptics of you. Please don't take this personally.

 

[Knovas]

It is funny how he keeps insisting on the idea that Catalonia is very corrupt, probably trying to tell us that this is an argument to prove independence as something bad. Like if in any other country in the world there's no corruption, not to say his beloved Spain.

Well guys, you only have to check this map to see where the corruption is and the political parties implicated. How something like this fits Carlos agenda, I really don't know.