Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

[Maciamo]

BBC News : Catalonia votes on autonomy plan

The Spanish region of Catalonia is voting on a new charter that would declare it a nation within Spain.

If the "yes" vote for greater autonomy is successful, Catalonia, in the north-east, would become one of Europe's most independent regions.

The draft plan allows for more independence in areas such as how tax is spent and immigration policies.

Latest opinion polls suggest most Catalans favour the plan, but more than half of all Spaniards reject it.

The proposal is supported by the Spanish government, Catalonia's ruling Socialists and moderate nationalists, but it is opposed by both the conservative Popular Party and leftists who favour outright independence.
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I support the independence of Catalonia, as I do for the Basque country of any other region of Europe (Scotland, Corsica, Flanders...) that wishes it while staying in the EU. This is an important step in the process of increasing democracy (government closer to the people) and strengthening regional cultures within Europe. This is how I see Europe evolving toward more decentralised federalism, where the EU is one single market and economy, but each cultural nation-state has a maximum of autonomy for such things as education, taxation and regional laws.

[Sensuikan San]

I agree.

Catalonia has waited an awful long time for this moment. It was, I believe, promised its autonomy by the Spanish Republican Government (along with the Basque provinces) waaaaay back in the 1930's ... but history intervened!

Non Pasaran!

However ... the question does have to be asked ....

Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?

Just a thought.

ƒWƒ‡ƒ“

[Maciamo]

However ... the question does have to be asked ....
Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?

Absolutely not. They are even inter-dependent for a proper functionning of the EU. I wish this was explained more properly to the European population. There are still too many people who think that the EU will mean less autonomy for their region and the dissolution of their culture into a more and more uniformised nation that will ultimately speak a common language ! This is all what the EU is NOT about.

Since the beginning the EU (or EEC...) has always considered the respect of the diversity of Europe's cultural heritage a top priority. Their is a Committee of the Regions, which aim is to increase the participation of European regions in (European) community life. The EU may strife to harmonise the distribution of wealth around Europe, open borders and speak of one powerful voice to the international community... but there is no better guarantee for the preservation of regional cultures and languages than the European Union.

Here is an example of of it works. Since joining the EU, Belgium has been able to become an extremely decentralised federal country, and it wouldn't even be a problem if they country split in 2, 3 or 4 smaller nation-states, mainly because the EU guarantees that there won't be any borders, there won't be any visa required for people to go to work in Brussels if they live in Flanders or Wallonia, and with the Euro there also won't be a need to change currency all the time. Defence-wise, the EU protects smaller states, so that it is no longer required to have an oversized army for fear of being invaded by the bigger neighbour (like Taiwan and the Koreas now). Politically, there is no need to be a bigger country you get the same number of seats at the EU parliament, and the EU speaks for you in the world.

Thanks to globalisation (which is NOT EU-related), companies merge across borders and become more international anyway. Looking at Belgian banks, in a just over a decade they have all become international holdings (mostly Belgo-Dutch or Belgo-French). ING and Fortis for instance have branches in numerous European countries and even on other continents... This is just to illustrate that splitting countries in smaller entities doesn't change anything for companies, as in today's world comapnies are no longer national.

The same would be true for Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even splitting completely from Spain, it wouldn't change anything in terms or borders, currency, visas, companies... So why do it ? It gives the region more cultural autonomy on such things as education, tourism, social security or taxation, and so it makes people happy. Needless to say that "cultural groups" are directly linked to the language they speak. So why be Spanish when your mother-tongue is Catalan or Basque ?

[Brett142]

I totally agree that Catalonia should by all means get its independence, but not now. Maybe when they create a United States Of Europe they could apply for 'statehood' just like I think Scotland, Bavaria, Corsica, the Basque country, Flanders etc.

Regional cultures are dying off and everybody knows it, why else would there be so much worry about it and so many regional and cultural protection? I think we all need to assimilate into a wider European society.

[zanipolo]

I agree with maciano.

BTW, it seems the UK will leave the EU after today's vote.......80 MPs of Camerons party voted against him to get the UK out

[Wilhelm]

I wouldn't want to be part of the EU, that is a joke of an institution.

[sparkey]

I wouldn't want to be part of the EU, that is a joke of an institution.

You want an independent Catalonia with its own currency and no EU membership? Would it at least be in the Schengen Area, like Switzerland and Norway? How popular is that position in Catalonia? (Sorry for the barrage of questions; I'm genuinely interested in this topic.)

[Cimmerianbloke]

I have lived three years in Tarragona, and even though I am a convinced European, I support Catalan autonomy with all my heart. There's all over Spain, but mainly in Madrid and in Andalusia a very strong anti-catalan feeling bordering on racism. Catalonia is very much in the same position as Flanders, language problems, massive amounts of money paid to keep other communities afloat, and a deep desire to have its destiny finally back into her own hands. The only difference being that Catalonia is full of immigrants (Spaniards and from abroad) who feel ostracised because they do not speak, and do not learn, Catalan. CiU, the party in charge, is aware of the chance being part of the EU is, and I cannot imagine them pulling away. As in other hot spots in Europe, they want to push for a referendum that would allow them to declare their independence. Note that the current economic situation might speed up the process if the PP candidate wins the election next year, as the polls seem to indicate.

[Franco]

Given that the future Spanish government will be the Spanish right wing it's extremely odd that Cataluña will get the independence. It would have been more plausible during the weak administration of Mr Zapatero. As for those worried about things such as "preservation of regional cultures" why is it necessary to commit seccession from Spain to achieve that goal? Catalan is already an official language in Catalonia, Valencia (called Valencian there) and Majorca. Cervantes institutes around the globe teach Spanish and also the regional tongues like Catalan. It would make more sense that Occitania splits off from France, as Occitan is nowadays extremelly close to being an extinct language due to the hyper-centralization of the French Government which does not recognise the cultural diversity of France.

[Cimmerianbloke]

Three days before the vote in 2004, the PP was given as winner. Then the attacks at Atocha happened, the rest is history... I think Spain needs the PP in charge, as the socialists haven't a clue about how the situation got that bad. Zapatero took publicly responsability in order to give Rubalcaba a chance to distance himself, even though all odds point to an overwhelming victory of the PP. The PP is notoriously anti-secessionist, and anti-catalan but they will have to deal with the autonomic regional governments, and CiU in Cataluña has the best cards to get what it wants.
Considering Occitania to get independence is no comparison, as no political party lobbies for it. The occitan promotion language organisations have problems founding students to fill their classes, never mind founding a secessionist party...

[zanipolo]

Are we all saying here that if a people vote in a big majority to get independence, they cannot have it. ?

Do we live in the 21 st century or as I suspect do we all live in a "modern" feudal system which practices royaly and serfs.? a caste system like India has

[Franco]

Three days before the vote in 2004, the PP was given as winner. Then the attacks at Atocha happened, the rest is history... I think Spain needs the PP in charge, as the socialists haven't a clue about how the situation got that bad. Zapatero took publicly responsability in order to give Rubalcaba a chance to distance himself, even though all odds point to an overwhelming victory of the PP. The PP is notoriously anti-secessionist, and anti-catalan but they will have to deal with the autonomic regional governments, and CiU in Cataluña has the best cards to get what it wants.
Considering Occitania to get independence is no comparison, as no political party lobbies for it. The occitan promotion language organisations have problems founding students to fill their classes, never mind founding a secessionist party...

Islamic attack in 2004 that benefited the socialist party was unexpected and similiar circumstance won't happen again. You can bet the righ wing will win Spanish elections and separatists will have no chance to promote their agendas as they will no have direct influence on the Government as they have right now because the socialist party did need their votes on the Parliament to pass the laws. I see this post is five years old. So where is Catalonia's independence? I can't see it. Nothing has changed even a little bit from then for practical purposes, Catalonia is the same Spanish region with the same degree of self-government as before, which is a lot compared to French regions. Well, something did, now the Spanish Constitutional Court has decided that the Catalan language must be the language to be used at schools alongside Spanish. So I would say secession in Catalonia is losing momentum. I agree that if big majority of Catalans want to commit secession sonner or later they will achieve it, but get your facts right, there is no majority of Catalans who desire being independent right now. Separatists are very loud but not majority.

[Knovas]

¿Not a majority? ¿are you sure? Some people seem to forget easily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlSI1GxNjs (10/07/2010)

The largest crowd of people ever concentred in the whole Spain. It's too bad the crisis is kicking hard now, but this will surely emerge again.

Having an agenda is try to hide or minimize things. Time to think about it ;)

[Franco]

¿Not a majority? ¿are you sure? Some people seem to forget easily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlSI1GxNjs (10/07/2010)The largest crowd of people ever concentred in the whole Spain. It's too bad the crisis is kicking hard now, but this will surely emerge again.Having an agenda is try to hide or minimize things. Time to think about it ;)

I'm willing to keep a discussion with a separatist as long as he keeps some intellectual integrity and respects facts. You know as well as me that separatists are a minority in Catalonia. A sizeable minority like 20%? Maybe, but still a minority. You can bring up whatever survey made by separatist parties, but you must acknowledge that the best survey to know the will of Catalans is free elections, and no separatist party has won a single regional election in Catalonia, unless you try to convince me that the PSC, a branch of Spanish national socialist party for practical purposes, is a separatist party. No, it isn't and CiU who rules now regional Government isn't separatist as well, furthermore its leaders like Duran y Lleida talk now about collaborating with the Popular Party to overcome the economic crisis that affects the whole contry, of course Catalonia too. They may ask for a referendum timidly from time to time, but they use that just as a strategy to press the central government and get more privileges, they don't push for independence seriously and never will. You delude yourself thinking to the contrary. The only chance for Catalonia to commit seccession is separatist ERC winning the elections, and that is a sci-fi scenario so far. Bye.

[Knovas]

Oh! talking about democratic elections with an incredibly high percent of abstention (equal to joke)...good point, yes xd. For you to understand: quite people who wants independence prefers not to vote in elections, simply because they don't feel themselfs represented by the ERC stupidity or other political options. Typical Spanish error to think ERC represents true independentism...keep dreaming, keep.

For this reason I didn't mention the referendums. Because according to them, vast majority of Catalans want independence, even the one made in Barcelona. However, there's also lack of participation there.

So considering this facts, I think the most objective way to measure this at the moment, is popular movilization. And like it or not, the Catalan manifestation was the biggest one ever made in Spain (possibly in Europe), wich for sure means something. And sorry for you: it won't be the last time you have to see more than a million Catalans in the street breaking all records.

This is just the beggining.

[Franco]

Oh! talking about democratic elections with an incredibly high percent of abstention (equal to joke)...good point, yes xd. For you to understand: quite people who wants independence prefers not to vote in elections, simply because they don't feel themselfs represented by the ERC stupidity or other political options. Typical Spanish error to think ERC represents true independentism...keep dreaming, keep.For this reason I didn't mention the referendums. Because according to them, vast majority of Catalans want independence, even the one made in Barcelona. However, there's also lack of participation there.So considering this facts, I think the most objective way to measure this at the moment, is popular movilization. And like it or not, the Catalan manifestation was the biggest one ever made in Spain (possibly in Europe), wich for sure means something. And sorry for you: it won't be the last time you have to see more than a million Catalans in the street breaking all records. This is just the beggining.

Those referendums you talk about had zero legitimacy . They were not recognised officially and were a complete fraud. For example 15 y.o. boys and girls were allowed to vote. In Barcelona, the least nationalist part of Catalonia, participation was 20%, according to the people who organised it. True numbers are probably much lower. But I'm talking about regular elections, where all parties concur and there is transparency. No separatist Catalan party has won so far, so most of Catalans are not separatists. Please accept facts and democracy, separatis lose all elections in Catalonia and always will because separatists are not majority in Catalonia. Organising parallel referendums manipulated by separatists where there existed even duplicated votes won't change that.

[Knovas]

The referendums are the same democratic (free) as elections and, as I said, the lack of participation is evident in both. So you are the one who must accept facts, and understand that ERC does not represent nothing but a small portion of independentism in Catalonia.

I see you keep ignoring the hugest crowd of people ever seen claiming independence in the street. Now go and tell the people this was also manipulated, come on XD
PD: Nice nick. I'd better not ask why this choice

[Kardu]

Well, I am not legitimate to participate in this discussion, but to my observation I'd say at least 80% of ethnic Catalans would vote for independence. I also have met quite some non-ethnic Catalans who also support secession.
The point is due to immigration from other parts of Iberia and elsewhere ethnic Catalans are not the majority in Catalonia any more.

[Knovas]

Most people in Catalonia has roots in other parts of Spain, me included even when genetics show I'm different from main Spaniards.

That's not the point. Vast majority of people who was part of the manifestation wasn't 100% Catalan (sure), so is not necessary to have this condition.

Or perhaps I missed something in your understanding of "ethnic" in this case.

[Kardu]

Considering that to me (correct me if I am wrong) confrontation and distinction between Catalans and Spanish is more cultural/political rather than ethnic (unlike e.g. Georgians vs. Russians) both entities descending more or less from the source population and speaking non-ethnic languages derived from an ancient conqueror (Latin), I define ethnic Catalans as having both surnames Catalan and speaking only Catalan at home.

[Knovas]

Genetically is also possible to distinguish someone with totally or substantial Catalan ancestry, but the difference is not incredibly huge from other Spaniards. That's more exact to say.

Both Catalan surnames it's quite difficult today, and even having both surnames from here, it's not rare that a grandparent has a surname from another part and the person does not inherit it. I mean, the question is not than simple.

[Kardu]

Genetically is also possible to distinguish someone with totally or substantial Catalan ancestry, but the difference is not incredibly huge from other Spaniards. That's more exact to say.

Both Catalan surnames it's quite difficult today, and even having both surnames from here, it's not rare that a grandparent has a surname from another part and the person does not inherit it. I mean, the question is not than simple.

Ok, thanks, good to know

[Franco]

Well, I am not legitimate to participate in this discussion, but to my observation I'd say at least 80% of ethnic Catalans would vote for independence.

That may have some logic, but it is not necessarily true unless you can present some evidences. There are non nationalist people with Catalan surnames and nationalists of non catalan extraction. Often the most radical Catalan nationalists are people of andalusian extraction who try to erase their non Catalan origin by acting as zealots. But once again they are minority, whether they are pure Catalans or not. Montserrat Caballé is a true Catalan mistress who belongs to the traditional catalan burgeoise and she always defended the hispanicity of Catalonia wherever she went abroad.

[Cimmerianbloke]

I believe the PP coming to power is the best that can happen to Spain at the moment. A coalition PP-CiU in Cataluña is also the most interesting solution considering the economic disaster. On another hand, the PP is unlikely to get financial balance corrected in the coming years, and I believe there'll be political rioting when the government will have to plunder the Catalans pockets again. Fudder for nationalists...

[Canek]

Catalonians are like tha last "indians" trying to win their freedom from the castillian opressors. All my best wishes to them. VISCA CATALONYA LLIUBRE!