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Thread: Walloon, a Germanised Romance language ?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sennevini View Post
    People differ in how easy they take on a new language, if they do they often keep their way of pronunciation. If someone has difficulties changing their language to the new dominant one, surely his children will learn it easily.
    In this respect, your people are amongst the most multi-lingual in all of Europe. in the context of Belgie, the Flemish are far more likely to be able to speak French than the Walloons are able to speak Dutch (as a general rule).

    That being the case, little wonder that the taalgrens continues its slow inexorable march Northwards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    In this respect, your people are amongst the most multi-lingual in all of Europe. in the context of Belgie, the Flemish are far more likely to be able to speak French than the Walloons are able to speak Dutch (as a general rule).

    That being the case, little wonder that the taalgrens continues its slow inexorable march Northwards.
    The "taalgrens" is not pushing northwards in Belgium at all, nor French is "creeping" in Flanders.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tchek View Post
    The "taalgrens" is not pushing northwards in Belgium at all, nor French is "creeping" in Flanders.
    Well, the taalgrens used to go through the extreme North-West of France, well into the 20th century.

    Are there many Dutch speakers left in North-West France? I don't know, but if not, or if there are far less there now than one century ago, then I suggest to you that that is equivalent to the taalgrens shifting North.

    I note the Dutch wikipedia has this map and this to say about Frans-Vlaanderen:



    Frans-Vlaanderen (lichtrood) en het gedeelte dat tot in de 20e eeuw voornamelijk Nederlandstalig was (donkerrood)


    Now my Dutch may not be up to scratch, but it appears to be saying that the dark red zone was Dutch speaking up to the 20th century (intimating that it no longer is).

    To me at least, that is indicative of a Northwards movement of the taalgrens.

    It is certainly true that the Flemish have become far more protective of their language over the past half century, clearly a stance taken out of necessity given the Northwards march of the taalgrens.

    In this article in the Dutch wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederlands_in_Belgi%C3%AB
    we read:

    De laatste officiële talentelling in Brussel dateert van 1947. (Daarna werden officiële talentellingen onder Vlaamse politieke druk afgeschaft omdat ze vaak onbetrouwbaar werden uitgevoerd en geen argument mochten zijn om het Nederlands verder te 'minoriseren'.) Toen lagen de verhoudingen als 24,24% Nederlandstalig en 70,61% Franstalig. Volgens verschillende bronnen leek het aantal Nederlandstaligen in Brussel in 2010 tussen de 6 en de 8% te liggen.
    Een in 2001 gehouden steekproef door de Vrije Universiteit Brussel naar het gebruik van de thuistaal gaf het volgende resultaat:[bron?]

    • NL: 9%
    • NL & FR: 11%
    • FR: 50%
    • FR & Anderstalig: 10%
    • Anderstalig: 20%

    In 2013 is er een kleine verschuiving te zien van deze percentages:[1]

    • NL: 5%
    • NL & FR: 17%
    • FR: 38%
    • FR & Anderstalig: 23%
    • Anderstalig: 17%

    De kennis van het Nederlands is derhalve die van de derde taal geworden...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There was a sharp shift fro Dutch to French in the Nord department of France over the last 100 years. This map shows the evolution of the speakers of each language from 1874 to 1972 in the arrondissement of Dunkirk. Dark green is Dutch speaking only. Light green is bilingual with a Dutch majority. Orange is bilingual with a French majority. And reddish brown is French-speaking only. Most of it was Dutch speaking in the late 19th century but it is now overwhelmingly French speaking.




    This map shows the longer term evolution since Frankish times. Dutch was spoken over most of the Nord-Pas-de-Calais, but receded to the corner between Dunkirk and Hazbroek in the 20th century.

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    All the examples you showed above is in France not in Belgium.

    In Belgium, the Dutch-speakers are progressively more and more dominant, politically, economically, demographically for 40 years now; all the historical French-speaking minorities of Flemish cities (Antwerp, Ghent...) are gone, Francophones were kicked out of Leuven university, and more recently were pushed away from the army. I don't think the Dutch language ever enjoyed such a dominant position ever in History in the area.

    Maybe there is a push from France to Flanders I don't know (I doubt it, France has zero political power in Belgium); but there is no push of Wallonia into Flanders at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tchek View Post
    All the examples you showed above is in France not in Belgium.

    In Belgium, the Dutch-speakers are progressively more and more dominant, politically, economically, demographically for 40 years now; all the historical French-speaking minorities of Flemish cities (Antwerp, Ghent...) are gone, Francophones were kicked out of Leuven university, and more recently were pushed away from the army. I don't think the Dutch language ever enjoyed such a dominant position ever in History in the area.

    Maybe there is a push from France to Flanders I don't know (I doubt it, France has zero political power in Belgium); but there is no push of Wallonia into Flanders at all.
    I think we would all accept that there has been a major move to protect and strengthen Dutch in the Dutch speaking parts of Belgium, arguably out of necessity because of the Northwards movement of the taalgrens and in the context of what we are talking about, what happened in far North-West France is relevant).

    In terms of Belgium itself, I put this to you. Not too long ago, Brussels would have been viewed as a bilingual island in Dutch speaking territory. But for decades now, the area immediately South of Brussels has become more French-speaking, effectively joining Brussels to the French speaking part of Belgium.

    If people have a different view on this, I'm genuinely interested in hearing it.

    I should add, I come to this discussion as a neutral. I have a great deal of respect for French and Dutch people and language (including the Belgians of course, in fact, here in Australia, we feel we have a very special relationship with the people of Belgium). I am merely reporting what I understood the situation to be (admittedly it's some time since I've taken a close look at the subject).

    It's about 20 years ago since I last visited Belgium. I stayed with a lovely couple in Brugge and at that time they expressed a lot of frustration at the language situation, and the encroachment of French.

    If that has since slowed down, I will be the first to applaud.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    I think we would all accept that there has been a major move to protect and strengthen Dutch in the Dutch speaking parts of Belgium, arguably out of necessity because of the Northwards movement of the taalgrens and in the context of what we are talking about, what happened in far North-West France is relevant).

    In terms of Belgium itself, I put this to you. Not too long ago, Brussels would have been viewed as a bilingual island in Dutch speaking territory. But for decades now, the area immediately South of Brussels has become more French-speaking, effectively joining Brussels to the French speaking part of Belgium.

    If people have a different view on this, I'm genuinely interested in hearing it.

    I should add, I come to this discussion as a neutral. I have a great deal of respect for French and Dutch people and language (including the Belgians of course, in fact, here in Australia, we feel we have a very special relationship with the people of Belgium). I am merely reporting what I understood the situation to be (admittedly it's some time since I've taken a close look at the subject).

    It's about 20 years ago since I last visited Belgium. I stayed with a lovely couple in Brugge and at that time they expressed a lot of frustration at the language situation, and the encroachment of French.

    If that has since slowed down, I will be the first to applaud.
    The problem is that the Flemish are far far more vocal about the situation and the international press is very flemish-centered (the British press took sides, helped with their traditional francophobia). Paul Belien who is a far right Flemish nationalist journalist, is a regular writer in the Telegraph and the Dailymail when Belgium is mentionned.
    When BBC World made a little documentary about the Belgian crisis few years ago, they summoned... Filip Dewinter, the leader of the Vlaams Belang (far-right Flemish nationalists) to explain the situation.
    Those people are sollicitated in the international mainstream medias as if they were normal, objective observers. If you want to talk about race relations, you don't ask the KKK (or Nation of Islam or whatever) for objective answers.

    No wonder a lot of people around the world think the Flemish are little snowflakes threatened by some malevolent Walloon menace who lurks or "creeps in" , that's the idea Flemish nationalists try hard to push. Fact is that people move very little in Belgium. It's one of the country with the least mobile people in Europe, so no one is invading anyone within the country. People tend to die in the city they were born.

    Now it doesn't mean there are no valid concerns. Belgium is not effective as it is and it doesn't allow the regions any freedom of decisions, Brussels is a mess. Politics in Wallonia is a complete mess because of stupid politicians. Obv, it's a easy for a Flemish to think "we don't talk anymore and we don't know what's up over there".
    I don't know why you think there is a northward movement of the "taalgrens" in Belgium, it's actually a very stable border.

    Francophones (or walloons) are not invaders, they are as much the historical inhabitants of the area as any Dutch-speakers, for centuries.

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    I'm certainly not viewing walloons as invaders, nor am I suggesting that the Flemish have not fought back, but they would have fought back because the taalgrens had been moving northwards for over 100 years. They most definitely would have had legitimate concerns at one point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tchek View Post
    Fact is that people move very little in Belgium. It's one of the country with the least mobile people in Europe, so no one is invading anyone within the country. People tend to die in the city they were born.
    That's a good point. The only regular migration within Belgium is toward Brussels. That's why Brussels has become increasingly French speaking. As central Brussels was taken over by poor (and mostly Muslim) immigrants, wealthier Brusselers moved progressively away from the centre toward the suburbs, just like in many American cities. When the suburbs within the boundaries of Brussels became full, they started moving into the adjacent municipalities in Flanders. In some cases, like Kraainem and Wezenbeek-Oppem, these municipalities have become predominantly French speaking too over the last 50 years, but that's just because the population of Brussels has been growing and suburbs needed to expand. I also know many Flemings who moved to Wallonia, but they are more dispersed and normally adopt French as they are cut off completely from Flanders. Among those I know, the Flemish parents who moved to Wallonia didn't even bother speaking (much) Dutch with their kids, so that the second generation is native French speaking with Dutch as a second language learned most at school. Even in Flanders itself, many upper-middle to upper class Flemings speak French at home.

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    It was the dominant opinion among linguists, even if the palatalisation/non-palatalisation is as well an "ethnic"/stratum question as an affiliation to a peculiar language family. ATW it really seems linked to peopling history...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Oddly enough, the Walloon word for potato (krompir) is related to many central European languages (identical in Slovene, krumpir in Serbo-Croat, krumpli in Hungarian, crumpenă in Romanian). Apparently it derives from the German Grundbirne ("ground pear") and the term spread around the Austrian empire.
    I've always learned that this typically Serbo-Croat word "krompir" originated in this area (Hainaut & Namur) during the very first years of the 18th century. The French king Louis de bourbon the XIVth had enrolled some "Cravate" regiment (the tie was invented in Croatia, Hrvatska in their own language) during the war along the Danube against the army of the duke of Marlborough.
    my thoughts for a penny.

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    My grandma's still speeking this language at home. It's a bit weird

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