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Thread: 'Mohamed' most common given name in Brussels over the last 3 decades

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    Post 'Mohamed' most common given name in Brussels over the last 3 decades



    I stumbled across the list (top 100) of most common given name in Belgium between 1900 and this year. The statistics are broken down by gender and region. Heavy immigration from Morocco and other Muslim countries has left its traces... Mohamed has been the most common male given name in the Brussels Region since the 1980's. If we merge the stats for "Mohamed" and "Mohammed" (just a spelling difference), it was already the most common in the 1960's and 70's, and 5th most common in the 1950's !

    Let's note that other Muslim names top the 2000's list in Brussels, such as Ayoub (3rd), Bilal (5th), Mehdi (6th), Yassine (9th) or Hamza (11th) for boys, and Imane (3rd), Rania (4th), Yasmine (6th) or Yousra (7th) for girls.

    Belgium-wide, Thomas has been the most common male given name since the 1990's, following Kevin in the 1980's, David in the 1970's and Patrick in the 1960's. Before that it had been "Jean" since the 1930's.

    For female given names, Laura has been the most popular since the 1990's, following Julie (80's), Nathalie (70's), Martine (60's). Before that it had always been "Maria" since the early 1900's ("Marie" in Wallonia).

    The early 2000's have seen the rise of previously unusual names such as Manon, Léa, Océane or Margaux for girls in Wallonia. Boys names remain more standard, except for Lucas (5th most common in the early 2000's) or Dylan (22th).

    Figures for the whole population in 2002 show that no less than 3% of the people (6% of women) in Belgium are named "Maria" or "Marie".

    This table shows the 100 most common family names in Belgium by region
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    That is an interesting statistic. The demographics of Belgium are evidently changing and have already shifted to a more diverse population. Although problematic, there are distinct advatages to living a society that is diverse over a more homogenous one.

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    Goodness, in Belguim? Anyways, I read somewhere that Mohamed is one of the most common religious names. But I'm not altogether certian.
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    Just for reference, there are about 85,000 people of Moroccan descent in Brussels, i.e. 9% of the population.

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    can't say that I'm surprised...it's all well and good to try to keep ur roots but having everyone in your area with your same name would be quite confusing...


    where is the integration now

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    Just think of all the kids that will be called Moe by their friends!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Just think of all the kids that will be called Moe by their friends!
    This isn't the US. People don't give more local sounding nicknames in Belgium (or in general in Europe).

    I agree with Duo. Where is the integration here ? Since Mohamed has been the most common boy name in Brussels for over 50 years, most of the babies born in the last few years are 2nd or more likely 3rd generation (if not 4th) of immigrants, but they still keep 100% Arabic names. In the US, I have noticed that even 2nd generation immigrants have English-sounding given names - sometimes keeping a name from their ancestor's country in the middle name. If they don't, as Sabro said, their name will be Anglicised by their friends.

    In Europe, Muslim immigrants do not adopt local names, they do not adopt local clothes and customs, and often don't even speak well the country's language after 2 or 3 generations. Think how much of an American is an Italian or Jewish immigrant who doesn't celebrate the 4th of July or Thanksgiving... I guess that they would not be considered well integrated if they never did, or refused to participate in such celebrations when invited by friends, under the pretext that it doesn't belong to their culture. Well it's exactly what is happening with European Muslims, except that they even want laws to change to accommodate their culture and religion !

    No we don't slaughter sheep at home in Belgium. That is illegal outside slaughter houses. Why would Muslims be exempt ? The Jews, who have a similar custom, never asked for exceptions, although there is a huge Jewish community in Antwerp.

    The Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or whatever don't complain about not being able to wear their traditional clothes in public institutions in France. Muslims do, they organise nation-wide demonstrations and even threaten the government if they don't comply to their demand. What's that for a mentality toward your host country ?

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    Maciamo-
    I think you are making presumptions about the US that don't ring true. At least listen to a third generation Japanese American named Sabro. I have no desire to anglicize my name. Learn it, pronounce it, and I will answer to it. As far as integrating and assimilating-- that is as far as I am willing to go. Leave my name and my diet out of it. And after three generations on my mother's side and eight on my father's, the US is not my host country, it is MY country-- and the state has no right to dictate what my name is, what I should wear, eat, or what customs I will follow.

    English "sounding" given names are probably the rarity, unless you include those with inventive spellings like Mychael, Zhon, Jan-et. (Sometimes it seems that we name our girls after strippers and porn stars- Amber, Diasy, Jade, Star, Goldie.) TV character and entertainer names (Brittney, Dylan, Brad) as well as the more common Bible Jewish names are still popular (John, Rachael, Michael, Joseph, David). In California, you are more likely to have Juan, Maria, and Jose in your class than John, Mary and Joey. And if you are a teacher, you will likely run across a Laquiesha, Yang, Nguyen or Mohammad. Here there isn't a majority ethnic population, Europeans simply are the largest group in the plurality.

    I find it difficult to understand why European countries would have laws governing how people dress and what customs they follow. It seems like a bit of "over the top" state control. Our clothes and customs have a wide range and variety. What you see in the inner city is different than the suburbs. Little Saigon is different than Little Tokyo, South Central and East LA look like different countries. You can wear whatever traditional clothing that you want to. Our school dress codes will make exceptions for clothing worn for religious reasons... although Sikh daggers are problematic. With rare exception, I don't see why the state should care what a person wears.

    In California, you can slaughter sheep at home. There are standards that need to be met which are rather strict, especially if the meat is to be sold. I remember the Portillo family used to raise live stock and chickens in their yard next door to us in East LA. Chickens, pigs, goats, and young cattle. They would slaughter the animals and process the meat in the back yard with giant pit barbeques, pots, and grills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Maciamo-
    I think you are making presumptions about the US that don't ring true. At least listen to a third generation Japanese American named Sabro. I have no desire to anglicize my name. Learn it, pronounce it, and I will answer to it. As far as integrating and assimilating-- that is as far as I am willing to go. Leave my name and my diet out of it. And after three generations on my mother's side and eight on my father's, the US is not my host country, it is MY country-- and the state has no right to dictate what my name is, what I should wear, eat, or what customs I will follow.
    English "sounding" given names are probably the rarity, unless you include those with inventive spellings like Mychael, Zhon, Jan-et. (Sometimes it seems that we name our girls after strippers and porn stars- Amber, Diasy, Jade, Star, Goldie.) TV character and entertainer names (Brittney, Dylan, Brad) as well as the more common Bible Jewish names are still popular (John, Rachael, Michael, Joseph, David). In California, you are more likely to have Juan, Maria, and Jose in your class than John, Mary and Joey. And if you are a teacher, you will likely run across a Laquiesha, Yang, Nguyen or Mohammad. Here there isn't a majority ethnic population, Europeans simply are the largest group in the plurality.
    I find it difficult to understand why European countries would have laws governing how people dress and what customs they follow. It seems like a bit of "over the top" state control. Our clothes and customs have a wide range and variety. What you see in the inner city is different than the suburbs. Little Saigon is different than Little Tokyo, South Central and East LA look like different countries. You can wear whatever traditional clothing that you want to. Our school dress codes will make exceptions for clothing worn for religious reasons... although Sikh daggers are problematic. With rare exception, I don't see why the state should care what a person wears.
    In California, you can slaughter sheep at home. There are standards that need to be met which are rather strict, especially if the meat is to be sold. I remember the Portillo family used to raise live stock and chickens in their yard next door to us in East LA. Chickens, pigs, goats, and young cattle. They would slaughter the animals and process the meat in the back yard with giant pit barbeques, pots, and grills.
    there is a difference,,, i know many americans with asian origins with anglo-saxon names...like jerry woo or john tang or watever... the thing is that why are there so many mohameds in brussels alone, i mean some could at least try to have sm sort of name that would be locally adaptable as well.

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    Do Belgians have trouble saying it or keeping them all separate in their minds? I don't understand what the problem is. Is it any different than having millions of men named James or John (Which are Jewish, not Anglo Saxon)?

    ... and if I understand what you guys are saying-- some of these men are third generation Belgians. This isn't their "host" country anymore, it is their "home" country. Their name is Muhammed- and they are Belgian.

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    Most indians I know have shortened their names down to easy to say nicknames and, in some cases, use an anglified name for example, Harjit to Harry, Abdulla to Abby (one of my school friends did this), Sukjivan to Suki. Even within their own ethnic groups they will shorten names down, not all the time, but it does happen.

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    Nicknames are always common. The ones that I don't get are the ones that are actually as long or longer than what they are replacing or contain consonants that the original lacks- John/Jack Maggie/Margret Bobby/Robert...

    Maybe Belgium should pass a law encouraging all Muhamads to shorten to Moe. Give them a break on taxes or a toaster or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycernius
    Most indians I know have shortened their names down to easy to say nicknames and, in some cases, use an anglified name for example, Harjit to Harry, Abdulla to Abby (one of my school friends did this), Sukjivan to Suki. Even within their own ethnic groups they will shorten names down, not all the time, but it does happen.

    Oh I know what you mean, I know several Indian students, but they do not have those long difficult names. Their names are more like Sheetal and Ajurn. Which are very easy. However, I still think people should try to make the effort to learn people's name from another country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Maybe Belgium should pass a law encouraging all Muhamads to shorten to Moe. Give them a break on taxes or a toaster or something.
    Only if their siblings are called Curly and Larry
    (I'm going to have a fatwa against me for saying that. It's sabros fault, get him first, not me)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Do Belgians have trouble saying it or keeping them all separate in their minds? I don't understand what the problem is. Is it any different than having millions of men named James or John (Which are Jewish, not Anglo Saxon)?
    James or John are English names. Jacques or Jean are French. Giacomo and Giovanni are Italian. I don't know the Jewish version, but it certainly isn't James and John...

    ... and if I understand what you guys are saying-- some of these men are third generation Belgians. This isn't their "host" country anymore, it is their "home" country. Their name is Muhammed- and they are Belgian.
    They are all 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation of Arabs (mostly Moroccans) born in Belgium, but only 5% of all people of Moroccan descent in Belgium have chosen to taken on Belgian nationality, despite being eligible after 5 years of (legal or illegal) residency. This is another sign of them not willing to integrate into Belgian society. How would American consider 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants would are automatically granted American nationality for being born in the US, yet nevertheless refuse the US nationality ? This is what is happening with 95% of Moroccans... Do you find this normal ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycernius
    Most indians I know have shortened their names down to easy to say nicknames and, in some cases, use an anglified name for example, Harjit to Harry, Abdulla to Abby (one of my school friends did this), Sukjivan to Suki. Even within their own ethnic groups they will shorten names down, not all the time, but it does happen.
    Exactly ! So do the Italian immigrants in Belgium. Why is it that Arabic immigrants refuse to do that, even after 4 generations in the country ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    Maybe Belgium should pass a law encouraging all Muhamads to shorten to Moe. Give them a break on taxes or a toaster or something.
    Nicknames aren't common in Dutch-speaking and especially French-speaking culture. At best they would shorten a given name (e.g. Sebastian => Seb; Caroline => Caro), but not modify it like English speakers do (e.g. William => Bill; Henry => Harry; Cassandra => Cassie...).

    So I cannot see how the Belgian government would encourage the use of nicknames for Muslims or anybody else... It just isn't part of the local culture.

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    Perhaps they should outlaw religion to make you happy- as there already seems to be a national dress code. Allowing the state to enforce assimilation and to adapt into the culture of the mainstream would certainly diminish conflict and discomfort. Before I was born schools made kids from different culture adopt American sounding names and punished them for speaking their native languages.

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    I don't think that these communties here are comparable to those in the US. They are very different from each other and so are ethnic relations here. There is consistent and persistent effort by these communities to resist assimilation and integration. The name factor is just another that adds up to the pile. I find it in no way normal that 3rd generation children have such different names from the local culture they reside in. Sure it can be acceptable, but the magnitude of this factor is brough to the light by the sheer amount of the same name out there... i mean it just doesnt make sense to me... it's just another stance to imply that look we are not one of u...well then i must ask why are u living here if you want to be so distant from me?

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    I'm third generation and my name is Sabro. How "Anglo sounding" is that? Does this lack of "assimilation and integration" make me a bad American?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    James or John are English names. Jacques or Jean are French. Giacomo and Giovanni are Italian. I don't know the Jewish version, but it certainly isn't James and John...
    James: From Greek Iakobos became Latin Jacobus (whence French Jacques) later also Jacomus whence Old French (and then English) James. In Gaelic the name is Seusmus (whence Hamish)

    John:From Latin Johannes. ultimately from Hebrew for "God is Gracious". Common Biblical name, but especially popular as that of John the Baptist

    I have a book of names. Sabro was mistaken for James, but not for John, which is Jewish in origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabro
    I'm third generation and my name is Sabro. How "Anglo sounding" is that? Does this lack of "assimilation and integration" make me a bad American?
    That's perfectly fine...but if SABRO is not the most popluar name in the recent years in the US now is it ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycernius
    James: From Greek Iakobos became Latin Jacobus (whence French Jacques) later also Jacomus whence Old French (and then English) James. In Gaelic the name is Seusmus (whence Hamish)
    John:From Latin Johannes. ultimately from Hebrew for "God is Gracious". Common Biblical name, but especially popular as that of John the Baptist
    I have a book of names. Sabro was mistaken for James, but not for John, which is Jewish in origin
    Sabro didn't say "of Jewish origin" but Jewish, but, after checking it the Jewish equivalent is "Yôḥānān" not "John" (and it doesn't sound more similar than it is spelt). My point was that the spelling and pronunciation of names which have been present in a culture for a long time (no matter their origin) change to adapt to the sonority of a particular linguistic group.

    This thread is about integration into a new culture (and linguistic group). I expect an English-speaker called "John" to change their name to "Jean" if they live in a French-speaking area, Juan if they live in Spain or Giovanni if they live in Italy. I do it for myself naturally, and I actually find it weird to use the French pronuciation of my name in English or the English pronuciation in French. So you can understand how weird I find it for parents from immigrant families to all give their children names of their ancestors' country without any attempt to find names that will make life easier for them in the host country where they are born and will almost surely live all their life. A few months ago I read and heard on TV that many Arabs in France complained about not being able to find a job just because of their Arabic names. To that, some better integrated Arabs replied that they changed their name to a French name and never had any problem, despite clearly looking Arabic.

    The real problem with Arabs in Belgium and France is that they almost do not try at all to adapt to their host country and on the contrary try to recreate their country and culture of origin in Belgium and France. They refuse to use European names, they refuse to wear European clothes, they refuse to speak properly the language of the country where they live, they ask the government for exceptions to be made just for them, they cause lots of troubles (e.g. insulting or assaulting people in the street, vandalism...), very few finish highsschool or attend the free universities, and then they call the French or Belgians racist for not given them jobs when nobosy could get such jobs with their qualifications. Those who really try to integrate, and study like any regular European do manage to get a good job and escape poverty and problems. But that's only a tiny percentage. Why ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo
    That's perfectly fine...but if SABRO is not the most popluar name in the recent years in the US now is it ;)
    It is not. But I am not changing it just to integrate or assimilate.

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    I don't read French, but isn't Muhamad the 28th most common name?

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