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Thread: Is social security to blame for high unemployment rates ?

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    Post Is social security to blame for high unemployment rates ?



    I saw a prorgramme on Belgian TV about the dole and how social security is a "job trap" in Belgium. The main problem is that the unemployed are entitled to the dole without limitation in time and can only lose it if they refuse too often to take jobs that the National Organisation for Employment (ONEM) proposes to them. An unemployed person in Belgium receives in average 723 euro per month (in 2005), but sometimes over 1000 euro for married people with chidlren.

    The truth is that even people who are not entitled to the dole can get money from the government, through another social organisation called "CPAS" in French and "OCMW" in Dutch (initials for "Public Centre of Social Aid"). To show how illogical the Belgian social security system was, the reporter explained that one could earn more at the CPAS/OCMW than on the dole or working !

    What is more, unemployed people can sometimes be entitled to "social lodging", which means that they only pay a fraction of the normal rent of a house/apartment. Finding a job also means losing such advantage (as well as other discounts).

    Because the Belgian social security is so generous, it does not encourage people to work. The TV reporter explained that most unemployed people had no interest in taking a job paying less than 1500 euro per month (i.e. 1000 GBP, 1925 UD$ or 225,000 yen). As a result, nobody wants such jobs anymore, except foreigners from poorer countries that are not entitled to social security (i.e. if they do not become Belgian after 5 years of residence).

    In Belgium it is possible to earn more on the dole than working part-time, and sometimes even full-time. The irony is that one is not allowed to do even part-time or temporary work while being on the dole (that does not prevent working in black). It is probably the same in France and Germany, where the social security system is similar. No wonder the unemployment rate does not drop. It is not a sign of a lagging economy, but of a too generous system, aimed at reduced poverty but in fact encouraging immigration from developing countries.

    Proposed solution

    I think that they should allow temporary work for up to 3 months a year, because otherwise many people will work in black anyway. Regularising this will increase the tax revenue on the 3 months worked, which can only benefit the government and lighten the burden on other tax payers. In other words, people on the dole pay for part of their dole. In fact, work allowed while on the dole should be more taxed than the same job for someone not on the dole, so as that part of the money earned by the "dolers" goes back exclusively to the social security fund. The same could be envisaged for part-time work (let's say up to 15 or 20 hours per week). It's a win-win situation as dolers earn more (and are active) and the government earn more. It is better than suppressing the dole for people with temporary (max 3 months per year) or part-time jobs because they wouldn't be able to make a sufficient living with that, and probably less than on the dole alone. Finally, people would rather do legal temporary/part-time work with higher taxes and no risk of losing the dole (acting as a 'minimum guaranteed revenue') than work in black while on the dole.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 01-09-06 at 12:38.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What do you think about creating a system of "social honor" ranking. Every person at birth starts with a 10, and then as they commit more and more problems for society, their ranking gets lowered. The lower the ranking, the lower the social security benefits and the like. And if one were to reach the bottom point (one), you would get deported or executed. Society after all is a social-contract. If you break the contract, there is no reason to tolerate you.

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    Social security is about to help people, and society,
    in an old review i had read that a European maybe chanfe from 3-7 jobs in his life time,
    it is supposed that is helping people in their changes of life,

    when social security becomes a job then society has a problem,

    that is why social security must have a time limit, and have limits on how much the sum must be,

    social secutity is a must for our modern societies,
    but it is after politician to decide how much time and how much E will be,
    personally I believe that according the years you have worked the time must be from 1-3 years and the sum from 60% of a basic salary droping to 20% if no another job is taken at the time limit

    on the other hand public help must be a debate, since a woman with 5 children gets a retirement for life time even at early age,
    while many families live by the money that state provides for children
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    What do you think about creating a system of "social honor" ranking. Every person at birth starts with a 10, and then as they commit more and more problems for society, their ranking gets lowered. The lower the ranking, the lower the social security benefits and the like. And if one were to reach the bottom point (one), you would get deported or executed. Society after all is a social-contract. If you break the contract, there is no reason to tolerate you.
    It actually sounds like a good idea, although I am sure that many bad elements of society would be opposed to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    What do you think about creating a system of "social honor" ranking. Every person at birth starts with a 10, and then as they commit more and more problems for society, their ranking gets lowered. The lower the ranking, the lower the social security benefits and the like. And if one were to reach the bottom point (one), you would get deported or executed. Society after all is a social-contract. If you break the contract, there is no reason to tolerate you.

    and how we honor a woman with many kids? (>5)
    an honorable? or a bad person?

    every kid will give a + or a - honor?

    considering that is giving soldiers and workers must be a +
    considering that is bringing more unemployed persons or trouble-makers must be a -?

    considering that Europeans are dying due to low birth she is a hero,
    considering that it cost to public since her work is to bear and raise kids is a non valuable to the productive material world, so she is a bad person that costs,

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    and how we honor a woman with many kids? (>5)
    an honorable? or a bad person?
    every kid will give a + or a - honor?
    Haha, that's not what I meant. People shouldn't lose government support based on their private fertility issues. What I suggest is taking away welfare/social security and other free government benefits from criminals and people who spread ideas that hurt the well being of the nation (for example religious extremists). And if you do something as bad as: murder an innocent person, you should be killed. If you rape someone you should be put in prison for life (and the funding for the prison will come from your own savings). Good-natured people should not have to pay for the damage caused by the intellectually or socially inferior. THEY (the problem-makers) should carry the weight for their actions, in every way possible. If they can't pay, their families will have to. Parents are obligated to raise their children in a manner which creates productive and morally "good" individuals. If a parent can't do this, they should either be ready to pay for the bad acts of their children or not have children at all.

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    Who are the bad elements of society? Got any examples?

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    @Templar

    That is nothing new what you are proposing!
    We already had this here in Germany some while ago. Anti-social people who were a danger to society were sent to concentration camps where they were gased, those who were not so dangerous were only castrated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I saw a prorgramme on Belgian TV about the dole and how social security is a "job trap" in Belgium. The main problem is that the unemployed are entitled to the dole without limitation in time and can only lose it if they refuse too often to take jobs that the National Organisation for Employment (ONEM) proposes to them. An unemployed person in Belgium receives in average 723 euro per month (in 2005), but sometimes over 1000 euro for married people with chidlren.

    The truth is that even people who are not entitled to the dole can get money from the government, through another social organisation called "CPAS" in French and "OCMW" in Dutch (initials for "Public Centre of Social Aid"). To show how illogical the Belgian social security system was, the reporter explained that one could earn more at the CPAS/OCMW than on the dole or working !

    What is more, unemployed people can sometimes be entitled to "social lodging", which means that they only pay a fraction of the normal rent of a house/apartment. Finding a job also means losing such advantage (as well as other discounts).

    Because the Belgian social security is so generous, it does not encourage people to work. The TV reporter explained that most unemployed people had no interest in taking a job paying less than 1500 euro per month (i.e. 1000 GBP, 1925 UD$ or 225,000 yen). As a result, nobody wants such jobs anymore, except foreigners from poorer countries that are not entitled to social security (i.e. if they do not become Belgian after 5 years of residence).

    In Belgium it is possible to earn more on the dole than working part-time, and sometimes even full-time. The irony is that one is not allowed to do even part-time or temporary work while being on the dole (that does not prevent working in black). It is probably the same in France and Germany, where the social security system is similar. No wonder the unemployment rate does not drop. It is not a sign of a lagging economy, but of a too generous system, aimed at reduced poverty but in fact encouraging immigration from developing countries.

    Proposed solution

    I think that they should allow temporary work for up to 3 months a year, because otherwise many people will work in black anyway. Regularising this will increase the tax revenue on the 3 months worked, which can only benefit the government and lighten the burden on other tax payers. In other words, people on the dole pay for part of their dole. In fact, work allowed while on the dole should be more taxed than the same job for someone not on the dole, so as that part of the money earned by the "dolers" goes back exclusively to the social security fund. The same could be envisaged for part-time work (let's say up to 15 or 20 hours per week). It's a win-win situation as dolers earn more (and are active) and the government earn more. It is better than suppressing the dole for people with temporary (max 3 months per year) or part-time jobs because they wouldn't be able to make a sufficient living with that, and probably less than on the dole alone. Finally, people would rather do legal temporary/part-time work with higher taxes and no risk of losing the dole (acting as a 'minimum guaranteed revenue') than work in black while on the dole.
    I am sorry, but I must make only a brief lecture of all your text, and this is clear that there is a big problem that you pose.

    Obviously, the answer seemed to be here in the question.
    This is not genius to say that this is the economy that make the laws of employment,
    when this is the State, which is looking after the social help.

    So the answer seemed to be no.

    So after that, there is the numbers that you pose, and there, this pose another question (I think: before searching a solution):
    Why is the social aid in Belgium so high, in comparison of the salary proposed by the economy ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    What do you think about creating a system of "social honor" ranking. Every person at birth starts with a 10, and then as they commit more and more problems for society, their ranking gets lowered. The lower the ranking, the lower the social security benefits and the like. And if one were to reach the bottom point (one), you would get deported or executed. Society after all is a social-contract. If you break the contract, there is no reason to tolerate you.
    Sorry, but you are a sweet idealist:
    unfortunately, people don't birth with the same note - in this case this is not a social honour (is it sure ?) but we must take it in consideration - , and generally, this is not 10/10.

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    @Mzungu mchagga

    That is nothing new what you are proposing!
    We already had this here in Germany some while ago. Anti-social people who were a danger to society were sent to concentration camps where they were gased, those who were not so dangerous were only castrated.
    This has nothing to do with fascism or Nazism. You just see things through a biased lens. Germans are uber liberal because they try to compensate for their past sins. Even though they themselves had nothing to do with it, just a few members of the older (mostly dead) generation. You are a silly people.

    National order has a bad reputation, because the Nazis took it to the extreme. But keep in mind that the only reason that something as extreme as Nazism arose, was due to the extreme environment surrounding it. The great depression, huge war reparations being demanded by the Allies after WW1, national pride was destroyed, all German colonies were given to the Germans, etc.

    This doesn't mean that the government should tolerate CRIMINALS. The current state of Western Europe has become as extreme in tolerance as Nazi Germany was extreme in intolerance.

    Balance is the truth and the light. Be good to everyone. But if someone betrays you (i.e. commits a crime), you punish them. They broke the social contract, and therefore no longer should benefit from altruism and comfort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    @Mzungu mchagga



    This has nothing to do with fascism or Nazism. You just see things through a biased lens. Germans are uber liberal because they try to compensate for their past sins. Even though they themselves had nothing to do with it, just a few members of the older (mostly dead) generation. You are a silly people.

    National order has a bad reputation, because the Nazis took it to the extreme. But keep in mind that the only reason that something as extreme as Nazism arose, was due to the extreme environment surrounding it. The great depression, huge war reparations being demanded by the Allies after WW1, national pride was destroyed, all German colonies were given to the Germans, etc.

    This doesn't mean that the government should tolerate CRIMINALS. The current state of Western Europe has become as extreme in tolerance as Nazi Germany was extreme in intolerance.

    Balance is the truth and the light. Be good to everyone. But if someone betrays you (i.e. commits a crime), you punish them. They broke the social contract, and therefore no longer should benefit from altruism and comfort.

    hmmm an interesting view but already answered by Emil Zola

    read the case of an officer was accused wrong,
    hope one day you will not be in his position,
    the penalty of death is not the answer,
    but a penalty on a repeated crime that must be high I agree

    the problem of Europe is that knows much more about Madonna's life and Ozzy, and less its own culture, and the spirits of older centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    (...)And if one were to reach the bottom point (one), you would get deported or executed. Society after all is a social-contract. If you break the contract, there is no reason to tolerate you.
    Sorry for quoting you one more time, but there another naive thing here. We all understand what you seem with "social contract", but there is the following problem:
    That doesn't make me pleasure to inform you this, but before definying "social contract", we should indeed define "contract", and.. .."society" itself. So there no equivalence, a priori, between "society" and "social contract". And which society ?
    And is this a contract between you and the other people, or (seven billions of people minus one) and (seven billion people minus one) ?

    And you should have made the following reflexion: some people born with no intention of according or signing any contract - did we include there only psychopath ? - so the "contract" is not accorded/signed, so the contract is not broken.
    Last edited by ACourvoisier; 02-11-11 at 07:20. Reason: Omitted the question of "equivalence"

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    the penalty of death is not the answer,
    but a penalty on a repeated crime that must be high I agree
    Well I wasn't really being specific, I was just talking about the foundation/basics of the way it would work. I agree that in most cases the punishment for the crime shouldn't be too high if it was the person's first time doing it ( and especially if the evidence was sketchy).

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    And is this a contract between you and the other people, or (seven billions of people minus one) and (seven billion people minus one) ?
    The contract is between the citizens of a country, although part of it should relate to other countries (don't invade other countries for bad reasons, don't trade with despotic tyrant-ruled countries, etc.). The contract in its essence is a mutually beneficial bond. It is the glue which holds society together. By knowing that people won't randomly murder you and take your resources, you feel comfortable and are therefore able to peacefully accomplish your goals and aspirations in life.

    And you should have made the following reflexion: some people born with no intention of according or signing any contract - did we include there only psychopath ? - so the "contract" is not accorded/signed, so the contract is not broken.
    That's like claiming that one is free to murder, because no one at birth told them that by being born they were losing that right. During your childhood you learn the difference between right and wrong, and likewise the difference between gifts/punishments. All who know what is wrong, yet do it anyways, are no longer helping the people, they are hurting them. If you hurt someone, there is no reason why should not hurt you back. It perhaps explains why most ancient civilizations had an eye-for-an-eye system of punishment.

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    Ok, all what you say is verry right, and it goes better with some explanations, of which I am honoured.
    Yes the good hearing between people, as people of a Country, is completly fundamental.

    But I would not say that "one is free of mureder" in the ideal; but in the practise, this is unfortunately sometimes the case (think to all the murderers that are not catch by the police).
    And one more not exactly thing (a detail of expression): We maybe don't lost some "rights" such all negatives ones, as murder, at the birth, if we had not these rights before the birth.

    But it is clear, that, on the other side, we have some "obligations" in "complements" of the rights.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    @Mzungu mchagga



    This has nothing to do with fascism or Nazism. You just see things through a biased lens. Germans are uber liberal because they try to compensate for their past sins. Even though they themselves had nothing to do with it, just a few members of the older (mostly dead) generation. You are a silly people.

    National order has a bad reputation, because the Nazis took it to the extreme. But keep in mind that the only reason that something as extreme as Nazism arose, was due to the extreme environment surrounding it. The great depression, huge war reparations being demanded by the Allies after WW1, national pride was destroyed, all German colonies were given to the Germans, etc.

    This doesn't mean that the government should tolerate CRIMINALS. The current state of Western Europe has become as extreme in tolerance as Nazi Germany was extreme in intolerance.

    Balance is the truth and the light. Be good to everyone. But if someone betrays you (i.e. commits a crime), you punish them. They broke the social contract, and therefore no longer should benefit from altruism and comfort.
    To put it this way, I fully agree that welfare-spendings in Germany are exagerated! Or at least, handed over to the wrong people: lazy people who don't want to work and lazy people without even German citizenship, instead of young families who really work a lot and really need the money. If I had any political decision, I would severely cut welfare spendings of long-term unemployed and criminals, and instead lower taxes for full-time but low-income employed families.
    I also agree that arresting laws in Germany are too weak! At least, trials are waaay too slow. And I like your idea that criminals should be asked to pay more for their trials and imprisonments, or prison conditions should be lowered.

    But IMO there is still a huge gap between cutting social welfare and sending people to death! Maybe I am blinded by the results of enlightenment and the Third Reich, but rather listening to your affectation instead of rational level-headed thinking will put Western Europe, well, into a state of the Balkans...

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    Maybe I am blinded by the results of enlightenment and the Third Reich, but rather listening to your affectation instead of rational level-headed thinking will put Western Europe, well, into a state of the Balkans...
    Some death has to happen, even if it is only reserved for the most heinous people (like serial killers). The Balkan problems are quite different in every way. Yugoslavia was composed of several different ethnic/cultural areas. The different people were never truly united and assimilated into one ethnicity/culture (even though they were all extremely similar by both blood and culture). Instead their government tried to unite everyone under a communist pan-southslav culture. This never destroyed the boundaries between them, but rather just ignored them. Nationalists were squeezed to the periphery of things, and eventually they had to squeeze back. Now nationalists are the ones running everything in the balkans. We went from one extreme to another.

    Don't bash the balkans when you don't know the causes of its problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Some death has to happen, even if it is only reserved for the most heinous people (like serial killers). The Balkan problems are quite different in every way. Yugoslavia was composed of several different ethnic/cultural areas. The different people were never truly united and assimilated into one ethnicity/culture (even though they were all extremely similar by both blood and culture). Instead their government tried to unite everyone under a communist pan-southslav culture. This never destroyed the boundaries between them, but rather just ignored them. Nationalists were squeezed to the periphery of things, and eventually they had to squeeze back. Now nationalists are the ones running everything in the balkans. We went from one extreme to another.

    Don't bash the balkans when you don't know the causes of its problems.
    Oh my, weren't you the one who started saying Germans are a silly people?

    Look, I think we're both not in a condition to teach each other lessons of culture! Western Europeans have their culture(s) and the Balkans have their culture(s)! I am not happy about how everything is working here, but I'm prefering our way to manage problems. With you it is probably similiar, you're not happy with everything in the Balkans either, but you have your own way of coping with it. So let there be peace!

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    Oh my, weren't you the one who started saying Germans are a silly people?
    I didn't say it to be an insult or at least not one as big as what you said. You dismissed my theories and bundled them together with the problems of the Balkans. By doing this you belittle my intelligence, you categorize all Balkan people as a backward region of loonies, and you show ignorance regarding the terrible problems facing people in the Balkans (problems which were mainly not caused by them in the first place but rather by foreign communist manipulation and Western (mostly American) sponsoring of nationalist groups during the 1980s).

    Look, I think we're both not in a condition to teach each other lessons of culture! Western Europeans have their culture(s) and the Balkans have their culture(s)! I am not happy about how everything is working here, but I'm prefering our way to manage problems. With you it is probably similiar, you're not happy with everything in the Balkans either, but you have your own way of coping with it. So let there be peace!
    I agree. Though I do think that we both should criticize the leaders of our nations AND all others of the world. Society's interests are becoming less and less important, while the greed and personal ambitions of the leaders is ever-increasing. And that is the crux of the matter. Every country in the world has this problem. This why they tend to ignore social problems, but strongly attack anyone who can take away their political power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    To put it this way, I fully agree that welfare-spendings in Germany are exagerated! Or at least, handed over to the wrong people: lazy people who don't want to work and lazy people without even German citizenship, instead of young families who really work a lot and really need the money. If I had any political decision, I would severely cut welfare spendings of long-term unemployed and criminals, and instead lower taxes for full-time but low-income employed families.
    I also agree that arresting laws in Germany are too weak! At least, trials are waaay too slow. And I like your idea that criminals should be asked to pay more for their trials and imprisonments, or prison conditions should be lowered.

    But IMO there is still a huge gap between cutting social welfare and sending people to death! Maybe I am blinded by the results of enlightenment and the Third Reich, but rather listening to your affectation instead of rational level-headed thinking will put Western Europe, well, into a state of the Balkans...

    It reminds me Nero and after him the christians,
    when rome was in Decadence some wise claim that it was the christians,
    and they burn and tolerate cristians,
    when later christian became rulers, at any decadence or lost battle it was the pagans, and they burn pagans,
    later it was the witch and the black cat,
    same was the 3rd reich,
    the Nazi decadence and the their lost effort created witches and pagans and christians, only that time had another name,

    I agree with you that some prisoners pass better in prison than outside,
    and that depends on state,
    I agree with labor of prisoners to earn some money to cover their medicines, but I disagree with gullag (how ever is spelled) and the forced laboury of prisoners, or easy execution, etc,
    and for me it is another story the public help and another the social insurance,
    the problem of the state, at least my country is that the state mixed both medicine and health care with retirements,
    I believe that must split,
    on the other hand the public help to someone with special needs, etc is another case,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    I didn't say it to be an insult or at least not one as big as what you said. You dismissed my theories and bundled them together with the problems of the Balkans. By doing this you belittle my intelligence, you categorize all Balkan people as a backward region of loonies, and you show ignorance regarding the terrible problems facing people in the Balkans (problems which were mainly not caused by them in the first place but rather by foreign communist manipulation and Western (mostly American) sponsoring of nationalist groups during the 1980s).
    I didn't say that people from the Balkans are less intelligent, or are silly or whatever! If that was your impression, I apologize for choosing the wrong words. Yet I do believe, from what I've experienced, that people from the Balkans show more emotions during debates, and let these emotions guide their decisions stronger. This can of course also affect politics and laws! The explanation might be in it's history, that you probably know better than I do.

    --> Ok, at this point one might argue that Western Europeans also have their emotions in political decisions, which due to history are somewhat different. But no one becomes sillier because of that!

    I agree. Though I do think that we both should criticize the leaders of our nations AND all others of the world. Society's interests are becoming less and less important, while the greed and personal ambitions of the leaders is ever-increasing. And that is the crux of the matter. Every country in the world has this problem. This why they tend to ignore social problems, but strongly attack anyone who can take away their political power.
    I agree, too!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hmm well then we should be allies

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    Funny that you mention the nazis at the beginning of the thread, Mpunzu. I've been in Berlin for a year and haven't heard about any gassing since I am here. European politicians should be honest and organise studies of german economy from 1933 to 1939. If Hitler was definitely a mass murderer from 1942 on, his economic policies from 1933 to 1939 did achieve some impressive results. I am persuaded we can learn something from it, by studying how his measures affected the economic life.
    But of course, borrowing methods used by fascists will be too much for some politicians, who prefer to let their country be hammered back to the Middle-Ages by the economic crisis they helped creating.

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