Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Is France a misnomer ?

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,132
    Points
    591,498
    Level
    100
    Points: 591,498, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Is France a misnomer ?



    The word "France" comes from "Frank", the Germanic tribe that invaded the Gaulish part of the Roman Empire in the 5th century, and extended until the creation of the Holy Roman Empire by Charlemagne in 800 (see map).

    The Germans call France "Frankreich", literally the "Frank Empire".

    However the Franks, or the Salian Franks to be more accurate, were originally from the Netherlands, founded their new Merovingian kingdom in what is now Belgium, Nothern France, the southern Netherlands and the Rheinland part of Germany. The Meuse valley (Wallonia) was at the centre of the kingdom. Have a look at the map (the darkest part is the original kingdom of Clovis, first Frankish king) :



    The Frankish "homeland", be it Merovingian or Carolingian has always remained the Meuse valley from Clovis to Charlemagne. All the Carolingian dynasty originated from the region of Liege in Belgium. Only Belgium and Luxembourg have had about all their present borders within the Frankish homeland. The Western tip of France remained Breton, the East was Burgundian, the South was Basque, Catalan, Occitan, Provencal, Corsican, etc.

    It is an aberation to associate the whole of France in its present border as the old land of the Franks. France is not even the hair of the Frankish kings. It is Germany and parts of Belgium that remained the centre of the Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne, while the Kingdom of France seceded from it in 843.

    The Salian Franks that founded the Merovingian and Carolingian kingdoms being of Dutch origin, and having settled and left most of their offspring in what is now Belgium, it should be Belgium that deserve the appellation of "France" and "Frankreich". Ideally the northern tip of France (Nord-Pas de Calais and possibly also Picardie and Champagne-Ardenne) should form one European region with Belgium (at least French-speaking Wallonia) and be called "France".

    It makes sense as the people of these regions are genetically similar (Frankish descent, so higher frequency of blue eyes, blond hair and Frankish facial traits), have a similar traditional architecture (central Lille looks like a Flemish city, and indeed belongs to the Flandre francaise), a similar geography and climate (Flanders, the Ardennes and the Meuse Valley are split between France and Belgium)... What is more Northern French dialects (Picard, Champenois, Lorrain) are closer to Walloon language than to other French dialects or languages. The historical counties of Flanders and Hainaut lied half in Belgium and half in France. This is only one ethnico-cultural entity, the true heir of the Franks.

    May present-day France split in culturally uniform regions such as Brittany, Normandy, Alsace, Savoy, Provence, Corsica, Languedoc, etc., each having their own language, culure and history. If the centre wants to remain unifiied, let's call it "Gaul", but "France" is only suitable for the North and Belgium.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    The Hairy Wookie Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Mycernius's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-02-05
    Location
    Hometown of George Eliot
    Age
    47
    Posts
    916
    Points
    21,649
    Level
    44
    Points: 21,649, Level: 44
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 1
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: UK - England



    Not exactly a unique position. The Scot in Scotland comes from the name of an Irish tribe who invaded and settled in Scotland. I'm sure if you looked into the history of other countries you would find similar connections.

  3. #3
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,132
    Points
    591,498
    Level
    100
    Points: 591,498, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Several Germanic dialects/languages directly descended from the Old Frankish language are still spoken nowadays in the Frankish homeland, like Letzebuergesch (Luxembourg; Mosel Frankish dialect), Kölsch (Ripuarian Frankish dialect) and of course Dutch itself (Salian Frankish dialect).

    It could be that Wallonia adopted French because it was the heartland of Frankish rulers and nobility, which dropped Frankish for Latin since the Merovingian period. The region of Liege/Luik/Lüttich presumably has the highest number of descendents of Frankish royalty and nobility.

    In the same way, the English aristocracy spoke French while the populace spoke Middle English (a close cousin of Frisian, Frankish and Saxon languages). The difference is that the two languages eventually merged in England because of intermarriages and closer contact between the nobility and the rest of the population, while on the continent the elite continued to speak French until the 20th century. Wallonia became predominantly French-speaking as it was the first region were Vulgar Latin/Old French became spoken widely, due to the high density of noblemen and children (legitimate or not) of Frankish monarchs.

    Let's also note that 16 out of 28 Holy Roman Emperors since Charlemagne (800-814) until the rise of the Habsburgs in the mid-15th century, were of Frankish descent (Carolingian, Salian Frankish, and Luxembourg dynasties), and thus with roots in the modern Benelux. After them, all the emperors were emperor-elect, and all Habsburgian but one, until Napoleon disolved the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 (see list of Holy Roman Emperors).

    Here is a map of modern languages and dialects in France, Belgium and Rhineland combined with the borders of Europe in the 6th century, when Germanic tribes invaded the Roman Empire. The birthplace of French language correspond roughly to the area in shades of Greens, which extended into the yellow, then orange. Other colours are not descended from the langue d'oil of the Franks. The blue dote is Tournai, the Merovingian capital during the late Roman period and until Clovis' conquest of Roman Gaul. Merovingian kings before Clovis are buried in Tournai. The two red dots indicate Liege (cradle of the Carolingian dynasty) to the left and Aachen (capital of Charlemagne's new Empire) to the right. They are only 40km apart from each others.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 19-12-06 at 18:38.

  4. #4
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered

    Join Date
    13-09-11
    Posts
    1


    Country: Austria



    Yes, The Name is a misnomer.

    I was interested in the Franks since my early Childhood and have read since this time heaps of books about them. While these Books are written (in its nature) very diplomatic and academic, there is still no legitimation at all for french people to call themselves "the franks". I lately have gained some insight in french publications... and I can say these works are as closest to propaganda as it gets when you keep in mind the indoctrination they already start with comics for kids. And the french people I have TRIED to have discussions with, were so indoctrinated, that some of them said as stupid things as: that the real name of "(ch)lodowech" has always been "clovis" and "luis" and that names like Chlodowech or"Chlodwig" are horrible distortions. One even told me the language of the franks has always been french.
    however the official position of the french government according to Wikipedia is that the current State of France, does not represent a country based arround any ethnic groupings, nor shares a "common ancestor", french school politics and "education" surely proof this hypocricy. The average narzisist and completely-egocentric french-nationalist individual still waves french flags when somebody only mentions the franks. Even when it are austrasians like "Karolus Magnus", "Karl Martell", or even Chlodwig. This is really bothering me because it is thefthood, false, and stands not even in legitimation of the single nomer "state", because these persons were not originating in western frankish lands. The problem we have here is an example of collective (and false) racism (born from a historical inferiority-complex of the "conquered" bearing the wish to be seen from later generations as "the conquerors") While I can understand some sort of patriotism in characters like "Charles the bald" (who was born in newadays germany), I can not accept the uncivilized behaviour of "grapping for all and lable it french". This all becomes; at its best - Boring.. Especially, because I MYSELVE do not claim any direct frankish decendance, but want to treat this topic realisticly. It is just mere historic fraud and cultural robbery that is ALL based arround the Name "France". (which simply goes back to the circumstance that modern france was the biggest land-mass the franks conquered. You have similar examples in history, one extreme is for instance the ROMAN empire)

    genetic tests, aswell as anthropologic studies (I read about it in "gallo romans and germany" and in the Book "Die Franken - Wegbereiter Europas", which is actually written as pro-french at its most extreme and carries the signature of the french president itself preluding the prologue) state clearly, that the franks that were present in france were a HUGE minority and just positioned there for stability of the realm and to govern the areas, and that NO NEW HUMAN MASSES (roman gaul was compared to germania much more densely populated at this time anyway) or big scale massacres were taking place. The french cemetaries do not at all show burried "Franks"(maybe with the exception of the most northern part.) but "germanised" natives (sometimes called "gallo-romans", which I find not completely fitting, for french people are not at all in majority decending from romans either) in adopted frankish fashion and burial customs. It is clear that the morphing of the ""gallo-romans"" did not happen on a huge-ethnic scale. Those NEW persons someone might call "Franks" but please just culturally....... this does NOT resemble THE french ethnic decendance par excellence which might ONLY be popular amongst french nobles at all. I want this to be CLEAR. It can never be an ethnic debate here at all. If this would be so, the french would have to get rid of other parts of their history (which at least some decend ones) treasure.

    Most of france decendence has indeed staid native and - in big parts - spared from any huge "foreign" influences/overbreeding.

    It is true, that the Low-countries and germany stand in legitimation of the real Franks AS A PEOPLE/TRIBE. NOT as a culture. Culturally france has very well adopted frankish customs, even though if they did not change radically, as someone can see simply by the language.
    If I could make a guess, I would suggest, that Dutch persons are closest and most "pure" of ORIGINAL FRANKISH salian stock(like chlodwig), while the riquarian franks (Carolus magnus was most definitely one) blended in into the north and middle german lands. With some parts of both in the benelux. This was all in its majority the domain of the Holy Roman Empire and lead by german kings when we bother to look at history.

    While the frankish dialects survived partly, the original Salian frankish is (except one scarce hint) lost. Linguists are certain that the low-german dialects, but MOST OF ALL THE DUTCH dialects gow back to frankish tribes. The Dutch language is according to modern scolarship the closest and most "unalterated" form of old frankish. Frankish was one of the four main-tribal influences on the german language, while france has ONLY 100 loan words (partly strongly alterated) of ALL frankish dialects.

    I do not need to mention that it is pure hypocracy of modern french to call germans "aleman" while inheriting much more alemanni territory due to french imperialism then what is left on "german" soil. Further the alemanni were just a submissed tribe of the franks, together with the french nationalist claims, to be "the germanic frank" show a very dangerous altitude, which- (would it not be for "la grande nation" against beaten germany) already equal a social threat if the roles would be switched.

  5. #5
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,132
    Points
    591,498
    Level
    100
    Points: 591,498, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Welcome to the forum, sonofpeleus, and thanks for this first contribution. I wholeheartedly agree with you on most points.

    As for how much "Roman" (Italian) ancestry the French/Gauls really have, this is still an unresolved matter genetically. One sure thing is that the French and the North and Central Italians are very close with one another, both in terms of Y-DNA and autosomal DNA. There are surely parts of France (and not just in the Southeast) where the people are closer to Central or North Italians than to other parts of France. The Parisian region has a staggering amount of haplogroup E1b1b, for instance, which places it almost at the level of South Italy (and a bit higher than in Central Italy). The problem is that there is no way at present to determine whether haplogroups such as E1b1b and J2 are mostly of Roman origin in France, or were there since Neolithic or Bronze Age. So far there is no evidence of these haplogroups in the Neolithic, and I don't see how it could date from the Bronze Age. Even haplogroup R1b-S28, originally thought to be exclusively Celtic, might turn out to be more Italic after all. All things considered, I think it is possible that the French have a significant percentage of Italian/Roman ancestry (definitely higher than all Germanic ancestry combined). This may also explain why French language and its dialects are considerably closer to Italian than to any Romance language from the Iberian peninsula.

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    24,910
    Level
    48
    Points: 24,910, Level: 48
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 640
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by sonofpeleus View Post
    however the official position of the french government according to Wikipedia is that the current State of France, does not represent a country based arround any ethnic groupings, nor shares a "common ancestor", french school politics and "education" surely proof this hypocricy.

    Then where is your propaganda?
    How is the French state trying to legitimate the fact that we call themselves Franks?
    BTW since the Third French republic, what kids were taught was "Our ancestors the Gauls".

    If we have no legitimacy to call ourselves France, why German speaking people call us "Frankreich"?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    bertrand's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-09-11
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    56
    Points
    1,502
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,502, Level: 10
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 48
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152

    Country: France



    Maciamo,
    I agree with you; the current limit of France do not make sense and are not what they should be.
    You are totally right: France (or Frankreich) should include also at the very least Belgium, Netherland, Luxembourg, and Germany.
    In fact, if you consider that Charlemagne took further the unification of European Christians started by Clovis, meaning that the Franks became the political arm of the church to unify all non-heretical christians, France (Frankreich) should also include Czech republic, slovakia, Italy, Slovenia, austria, Switzerland, Hungary and Spain.
    This beautiful empire was broken by the Oath of Strasbourg in 842 for selfish reasons, with various sons each taking a piece, but it really does not make any sense.
    The european countries all have the same root and culture. The very essence of Europe takes its root in the baptism of Clovis of 498. In the same way that the Roman empire brought civilisation to Europe, The franks brought the christian values that their descendants (the teutonic nights) carried to the borders of Russia.
    This is why, I believe, the Reich of the Franks, today should go from Brest to Brest-Litovsk, no?

  8. #8
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,132
    Points
    591,498
    Level
    100
    Points: 591,498, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    Maciamo,
    I agree with you; the current limit of France do not make sense and are not what they should be.
    You are totally right: France (or Frankreich) should include also at the very least Belgium, Netherland, Luxembourg, and Germany.
    In fact, if you consider that Charlemagne took further the unification of European Christians started by Clovis, meaning that the Franks became the political arm of the church to unify all non-heretical christians, France (Frankreich) should also include Czech republic, slovakia, Italy, Slovenia, austria, Switzerland, Hungary and Spain.
    This beautiful empire was broken by the Oath of Strasbourg in 842 for selfish reasons, with various sons each taking a piece, but it really does not make any sense.
    The european countries all have the same root and culture. The very essence of Europe takes its root in the baptism of Clovis of 498. In the same way that the Roman empire brought civilisation to Europe, The franks brought the christian values that their descendants (the teutonic nights) carried to the borders of Russia.
    This is why, I believe, the Reich of the Franks, today should go from Brest to Brest-Litovsk, no?
    Thanks for agreeing with me, but what you wrote is different from what I wrote and meant. I don't mean to say that France should be the name of Gaul + Benelux + Germany, but only of the original Frankish homeland, a region that shares close histircal and cultural ties to this day (Belgium, Luxembourg, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Southeast Netherlands and the part of Germany west of the Rhine). It's not exactly the medieval Low Countries because it excludes regions like Zealand, Holland and Frisia, but includes the Eifel region of Rhineland. I cannot think of another word for it than France/Francia. Unfortunately it is already taken by what should be called Gaul.

    I also don't think of the Franks as missionary Christians. Most of the land they conquered (Gaul, southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Catalonia) was already Christian before Clovis converted, and he did it mostly to be seen as the heir of the late Western Roman Empire. No sovereign at the time had any legitimacy to rule over most of Western Europe without the blessing of the Pope. Every historian knows that Clovis didn't convert due to religious convictions (he kept practising pagan rituals after his conversion) but for political reasons. The Franks were first and foremost warriors, not evangelists. Most of the missionaries and influential clergymen at the time of Charlemagne came from Ireland or Italy.

  9. #9
    aimless wanderer Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Mzungu mchagga's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-10
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    638
    Points
    10,047
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,047, Level: 30
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 503
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Germany



    Is it just me or do other people also recognize that the kernel of the EU, the founding members (France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, West Germany, Italy) roughly match the borders of the Frankish Empire under Charlemagne? I always wondered whether there is a cultural coincidence, that specially ties these countries together.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-08-10
    Posts
    50
    Points
    1,932
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,932, Level: 12
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 218
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    I've had the same thought. Thanks for pointing this out Maciamo. You often seem to be be anti-French but I would agree with you here. Ethnic names them selves can indeed be very deceptive. What springs to mind in particular is today's people of the Republic of Macedonia. The people who use it in an ethnic sense have only really been using it as such for less than a century yet lay claim to a much more ancient tribe.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-08-10
    Posts
    50
    Points
    1,932
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,932, Level: 12
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 218
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    As for the adoption of language, perhaps it's due to, as Dylan Moran pointed out, that Germanic languages sound like "a disgusting language, ...a horrible sound like typewriters eating tinfoil being kicked down the stairs." or something like that.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    bertrand's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-09-11
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    56
    Points
    1,502
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,502, Level: 10
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 48
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152

    Country: France



    Maciamo,
    you are talking about Frankland, the orginal land of the Franks. I am talking about
    Frankreich, the empire over which the Franks established their authority.

    At the time of Clovis there were several primary kingdoms: the Wisigoths in Spain, the Ostrogoths in Italy the burgondes in Burgundy and so on. But all these kingdoms were heretics (Arians) with no legitimacy from the pope, the sole authority with repect to the Christian dogma.

    So Clovis is the very first monarch to convert to Catholicism and therefore provide a political arm to the church.

    Clovis didn't have to get baptised since at the time he ruled already over a large country and he could have stayed a pagan like other rulers. The church at the time had very little to offer. Of course it is not true that he did this for political reasons. The only historical source for this event is Gregory of Tours that clearly states the context of his conversion.
    Historians of our times choose to discard Gregory's testimony even though it is the only one; they cannot accept the truth that one could convert based on faith because it is so contrary to the habits of modern times. So historians make stories without any fact.
    they did the same thing with Constantine the Great.

    So with the baptism of Clovis, Frankland becomes Frankreich even though the actual emperor title only comes later with Charlemagne. It is really a shame that Charlemagne's achievement have been squandered. The fact that after him the term Frankreich only applied to the western kingdom makes no sense. So France should be West-Frankreich, Benelux and Italy should be Mittel-Frankreich and Germany should be Ost-Frankreich since again all these country find their Christian(catholic) roots in the Frankish monarchy.
    As for Belgium, the mere existance of this country is an aberration created by the British to keep the French in check. There is really no sound historical or cultural reason to keep it a seperate country and even the Belgians dont believe it has real root to justify this.

  13. #13
    aimless wanderer Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Mzungu mchagga's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-10
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    638
    Points
    10,047
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,047, Level: 30
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 503
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Germany



    Uhm, it said my post had to be approved first before it will be shown here. Was my post so terribly inappropriate that it still doesn't show up?

  14. #14
    Banned Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-12-10
    Location
    Brabant
    Age
    64
    Posts
    768

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a2* SNP P312

    Ethnic group
    Proto Celtic
    Country: Netherlands



    Ah well.. I think Clovis did get baptized a Christian because he saw the possibilities of getting support from the Pope.

    Why? A lot of Frank rulers got the power, and were murdered by their rivals.
    Clovis needed a protection power..
    He simply saw the light.. ;)
    A clever man..

    Don't deny that!

    And the Franks weren't Dutch! They came from Germany!
    It's still in the name of Frankfurt.

    The Dutch were Celts, and still are for a great deal.

  15. #15
    Banned Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-12-10
    Location
    Brabant
    Age
    64
    Posts
    768

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a2* SNP P312

    Ethnic group
    Proto Celtic
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Uhm, it said my post had to be approved first before it will be shown here. Was my post so terribly inappropriate that it still doesn't show up?
    I guess the CIA is checking political correctness..
    I got the same treatment on other threads.

    I get the impression everybody has freedom of speech on this forum, at least if it's right wing hogwash.

    Left wing logic and rational remarks and conclusions are being moderated.

  16. #16
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,132
    Points
    591,498
    Level
    100
    Points: 591,498, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    Maciamo,
    you are talking about Frankland, the orginal land of the Franks. I am talking about
    Frankreich, the empire over which the Franks established their authority.
    Frankland is what I am talking about, but even you have to use a German term (also usable in English I guess) because French language doesn't distinguish France, Frankland, and Francia/Frankreich. Well, Francie is a possible name for the old Merovingian kingdom or even the Carolingian Empire, but there is no word for Frankland.

  17. #17
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,132
    Points
    591,498
    Level
    100
    Points: 591,498, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Uhm, it said my post had to be approved first before it will be shown here. Was my post so terribly inappropriate that it still doesn't show up?
    The moderation is automatic. I have no control over it. I can just approve the posts listed for review. I have no idea why your posts and Gusar's two posts were moderated.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    bertrand's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-09-11
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    56
    Points
    1,502
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,502, Level: 10
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 48
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152

    Country: France



    yes Reinart is right, the Franks were definitely German, so a german name makes sense for their territory; the difficulty is to assess how much control they had over a given region in terms of:
    - political control
    - Language dominance
    - Genetic dominance

    For instance it is said that in 511, the Franks took control over all of Alsace from the alamans.
    Yet, their colonists seem to have been no further than the Zorn river (south of haguenau)
    And their language went no further south than Wissembourg.
    So Alsace probably represent a good gradiant of Frankish influence north to south.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Stellenbosch
    Posts
    454
    Points
    14,795
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,795, Level: 36
    Level completed: 94%, Points required for next Level: 55
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-FGC13617
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b1

    Ethnic group
    European
    Country: South Africa



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for agreeing with me, but what you wrote is different from what I wrote and meant. I don't mean to say that France should be the name of Gaul + Benelux + Germany, but only of the original Frankish homeland, a region that shares close histircal and cultural ties to this day (Belgium, Luxembourg, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Southeast Netherlands and the part of Germany west of the Rhine). It's not exactly the medieval Low Countries because it excludes regions like Zealand, Holland and Frisia, but includes the Eifel region of Rhineland. I cannot think of another word for it than France/Francia. Unfortunately it is already taken by what should be called Gaul.

    I also don't think of the Franks as missionary Christians. Most of the land they conquered (Gaul, southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Catalonia) was already Christian before Clovis converted, and he did it mostly to be seen as the heir of the late Western Roman Empire. No sovereign at the time had any legitimacy to rule over most of Western Europe without the blessing of the Pope. Every historian knows that Clovis didn't convert due to religious convictions (he kept practising pagan rituals after his conversion) but for political reasons. The Franks were first and foremost warriors, not evangelists. Most of the missionaries and influential clergymen at the time of Charlemagne came from Ireland or Italy.
    I enjoyed reading this post, thanks Maciamo.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 16-09-11 at 22:03.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Franci as they called themselves settled mainly in NorthWest France - Ill d France , but probably in moderate numbers , while in other aerias they number is realy small . So I agred France is misnomer . About what lands should be called Francia - France I would say Belgium , Franconia ( in Germany ) , Luxemburg and south Nederlands . Franks were probably aliance of nations not only one nation - they first apearance is about III century , when in German lands was some kind of power shift , and creation of new aliances like Alemans ( " of all nations ")and Franks ( " brave ones , honorable ones " ) . In this aliance were probably included German nations like Suebi and Frisi and other lesser groups , but also Celtic tribes of Belgae .

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Stellenbosch
    Posts
    454
    Points
    14,795
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,795, Level: 36
    Level completed: 94%, Points required for next Level: 55
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-FGC13617
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b1

    Ethnic group
    European
    Country: South Africa



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Franci as they called themselves settled mainly in NorthWest France - Ill d France , but probably in moderate numbers , while in other aerias they number is realy small . So I agred France is misnomer . About what lands should be called Francia - France I would say Belgium , Franconia ( in Germany ) , Luxemburg and south Nederlands . Franks were probably aliance of nations not only one nation - they first apearance is about III century , when in German lands was some kind of power shift , and creation of new aliances like Alemans ( " of all nations ")and Franks ( " brave ones , honorable ones " ) . In this aliance were probably included German nations like Suebi and Frisi and other lesser groups , but also Celtic tribes of Belgae .
    What haplogroups were originally found in the Franks? I have come across a dutch family with links to the Merovingians, ydna testing found them to be L21. The Walloon franco-phone regions have elevated R1b-U152. The region of Poitou and Saintonage may hold some clues as they have long been associated with the Franks and are surrounded by other communities. If we assume for a moment that the Franks had limited amounts of R1b-U106 and I1, could they have been predominantly R1b-U152 Northern 'Celtic' peoples who remained in the North and formed a loose confederation of smaller tribes? The names Lotharingia, Merovingia and others have a distinct Northern quality to them, perhaps even Scandinavian or Norse if I may venture into the realm of fantasy.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 17-09-11 at 08:50.

  22. #22
    Banned Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-12-10
    Location
    Brabant
    Age
    64
    Posts
    768

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a2* SNP P312

    Ethnic group
    Proto Celtic
    Country: Netherlands



    A Frank means a free man.

  23. #23
    aimless wanderer Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Mzungu mchagga's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-10
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    638
    Points
    10,047
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,047, Level: 30
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 503
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Germany



    Is it just me or do other people also notice that the Frankish Kingdom under Charlemagne roughly matches the borders of the founding members of the EU (France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, West Germany, Italy)? I've always been wondering whether there are cultural ties up to this day that bound these countries together.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    What haplogroups were originally found in the Franks? I have come across a dutch family with links to the Merovingians, ydna testing found them to be L21. The Walloon franco-phone regions have elevated R1b-U152. The region of Poitou and Saintonage may hold some clues as they have long been associated with the Franks and are surrounded by other communities. If we assume for a moment that the Franks had limited amounts of R1b-U106 and I1, could they have been predominantly R1b-U152 Northern 'Celtic' peoples who remained in the North and formed a loose confederation of smaller tribes? The names Lotharingia, Merovingia and others have a distinct Northern quality to them, perhaps even Scandinavian or Norse if I may venture into the realm of fantasy.
    It is real posibility Franks had a lot Celtic blood , maybe even lot more than Germanic.
    From Wikipedia :
    The ethnonym Frank has sometimes been traced to the Germanic word for "javelin" (cf. Old English franca, Old Norse frakka), as opposed to Latin francisca "throwing axe", which was named after the tribe. A weapon-based tribal name would be comparable to that of the Saxons. Others tie the name to a word for "bold, fierce" (cf. Middle Dutch vrac, Old English frǣc, Old Norwegian frakkr). The name's origin remains disputed.[4]
    Modern scholars of the Migration Period are in agreement that the Frankish identity emerged at the first half of the 3rd century out of various earlier, smaller Germanic groups, including the Salii, Sicambri, Chamavi, Bructeri, Chatti, Chattuarii, Ampsivarii, Tencteri, Ubii, Batavi and the Tungri. These tribes inhabited the lower and middle Rhine valley between the Zuyder Zee and the river Lahn and extended eastwards as far as the Weser, but were the most densely settled around the IJssel and between the Lippe and the Sieg. The Frankish confederation probably began to coalesce in the 210s around the area Romans called Germania inferior.
    Abouth Lotharingia it is named after Lothar one of sons that shared Charles empire .
    Merovingians were named after Merovech father of Childerich , who was father of Chlodovech / Clovis/ Ludwig I conqueror of the Gaul.
    To me Merovech sound somehow Latin more than Germanic, maybe conected with Marius ?

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Is it just me or do other people also notice that the Frankish Kingdom under Charlemagne roughly matches the borders of the founding members of the EU (France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, West Germany, Italy)? I've always been wondering whether there are cultural ties up to this day that bound these countries together.
    Yes there is definetly conection .

Similar Threads

  1. R-L21* in France Thus Far
    By rms2 in forum R1b
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 15-04-14, 20:28
  2. How is France for you?
    By ElleN in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 01-03-11, 01:31
  3. Let's make fun of France TV
    By Maciamo in forum Chit-Chat
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 30-03-10, 12:15
  4. Franks and the name of france
    By motatalea in forum History & Civilisations
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-08-09, 00:16
  5. Tour De France
    By Minty in forum France
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-08-06, 00:27

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •