Your beliefs, values and opinions

[Maciamo]

What divides and unites people more than beliefs, values and opinions ?

It may be a double-edge sword to express them, as you never know what reaction to expect from others. On the other hand, everybody has beliefs, values and opinions, and if you have reflected properly about them, you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself for holding them, as long as you can defend them. Once you can't defend them anymore, nothing prevents you from changing them...

So here is a sample of my mind as of today :

Beliefs

- I believe that the universe is eternal (both in past and future) and infinite in every direction. Therefore I do not believe in the creation or end of the universe. Reality cannot cease to exist (except in our minds when we die). Nothing is "created", matter/energy just changes form.

- I believe that life is a biochemical process that does not require any such thing as a(n immortal) soul.

- I believe in life after death in the sense that a life being is composed of eternal matter/energy, which has an eternity to form other life beings in the future (and has in the past).

- I do not believe in any god(s), supernatural powers or miracles. Everything has a scientific explanation, even if we haven't figured it out yet.

- I believe in an infinity of extrterrestrial life somewhere in the universe, because possibilities are infinite in an infinite universe. However, I doubt that any UFO has ever come to our Earth. Rumours are too inconsistent and stereotypical, and obviously linked to our own current advancement in technology.

- I believe that each individual is absolutely unequal to others in every respect (health, physical and mental strength, sensitivity, attractiveness, character, intelligence, experience, wealth...), except possibly in rights. Even for rights, it is obvious that they differ for people around the world, depending on their nationality (e.g. military service), country and state of residence (e.g. legal age for drinking, driving, etc.), age (minor or adult), gender (e.g. custody of the chidren in case of divorce, pension age), status (civilian, politician, diplomat, or military; single or married), wealth (e.g. for education and medical treatment in many countries), and other factors. The saying "all humans are born equal" sounds like the worst absurdity of political correctness to me.


Values

- I value knowledge, intelligence, rationality, creativity, progress, self-improvement, continual change for the better, self-responsibility, peace, beauty, harmony...

- "Better nothing than something bad."

- I strongly disregard hypocrisy, dishonesty, and lies (about facts, not feelings or emotions).


Opinions

- I am for the death penalty for dictators, heads of states, military leaders, leaders of terrorist/criminal organisations, who carry the responsibility of the acts committed by their subordinates. I am against death penalty in most other cases.

- I do not donate to humanitarian aid because I consider that too much of it is wasted, goes to the organisations' administrators or to corrupted officials, or serves to finance wars that only worsen humanitarian problems. Trust issue, due to the numerous abuses that have been revealed. I cannot help but see people who keep donating to humanitarian funds as naive.

- I am for individual freedom to consume drugs (alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, cocaine, chocolate, coffee, etc.) or other addictive products (video games, pornography, TV, music...) on the principle that everybody is free to do what they want with their own body and health. However, I am against smoking in public places as it endangers the health of others. I am also against any other public behaviour that is harmful or disturbing to others, such as listening very loud music in one's car with the windows open.

- I am pro-abortion, even after 3 months, if it can prevent a child from being born in a negative environment (due to poverty or immaturity of the parents), or prevent the parents from having to raise a disabled child.

- I think that parents are fully responsible for their child(ren)'s education and well-being, and should have a minimum of maturity and financial means to be allowed to procreate. I do not understand how people who want to adopt have to be subjected to numerous tests, psychological analysis, and have proven, stable revenues, for the sake of a child given up by an irresponsible mother (e.g. too young or too poor), but that anyone else is free to make children without restrictions. This just does not make sense. What revolts me most is mother beggars who use their children to try to obtain the pity of people. I just want to tell them "If you don't have enough money to feed your children, don't make any, or abort in time ! Why should we sympathise for people who have irresponsible sex, then become irresponsible parents whose children will probably become delinquents or criminals because of them ?"

[Ma Cherie]

Just wondering,

As far as opinions goes, does it have to deal with issues of abortion and the death penalty and the other issues you've mentioned Maciamo? What opinions on other issues like, when is it justifiable to go to war to another country? Or issues like fair trade? I'm just coming up with stuff off the top of my head.

[Maciamo]

Just wondering,
As far as opinions goes, does it have to deal with issues of abortion and the death penalty and the other issues you've mentioned Maciamo? What opinions on other issues like, when is it justifiable to go to war to another country? Or issues like fair trade? I'm just coming up with stuff off the top of my head.

Well, you can mention any opinion about things that are of general concern for most people or government.

I find it quite hard to determine when is it justifiable to go to war to another country. History has shown that the best justifications have been "money", "power" and "religious beliefs". I don't think that any of them are "good" justifications. But is there anything like a "good war" anyway ?

As for fair trade, it is also a matter of point of view, and very much case by case, so it's hard to summarize in a few lines. Trade is like a peaceful substitute to war. It makes some people richer and more powerful.

[Garrick]

Maciamo
Outstanding topic and you gave a lot of examples.

If we follow the model of Schein can add basic assumptions.

Basic assumptions are the circumstances taken for granted. They lie at the deepest level of culture and are the hardest to change. Basic assumptions are difficult to discern, they exist at largely unscious level. Yet they get the key to understanding why things happen in ways that are happening. In the Schein’s model basic assumptions are made at the deepest level, or by some authors classified together with the values and beliefs.

Examples of basic assumptions:

We are one family and take care of each other, but a family is a hierarchy, and children have to obey.

Truth and wisdom reside in those who have more education and expirience.

Truth is discovered through debate and testing (buy in).

[Reinaert]

I don't think there is any truth.

A debate is a clash of different opinions, and is manipulated by all kind of tricks by almost all of the debaters.

Speech is typical for mankind, and it is the instrument of politics.
Or like an old Greek already said. Man is a political animal.

So opinion, belief, or values are nothing more than the product of repression.
Man uses force to get other men into a certain kind of civilization.
Education is a way to do that in a gentle way.

We all want freedom for ourselves, but like to restrict the freedom of others.

Just like the restriction of some words even on this forum.. :)

[^ lynx ^]

I don't think there is any truth.

What a nonsense. Then your statement is not truth either.

Did you ever learnt the basis of "deductive logic" at school?

[Reinaert]

What a nonsense. Then your statement is not truth either.

Did you ever learnt the basis of "deductive logic" at school?

School is the beginning of killing a free mind, like I said already.

And there is some truth in saying there is no truth.

There are many truths .. It's as simple as that.

Many truths have a logical reason to say there is not ONE truth at all.

Deduction.

Just like.. A lynx is a cat, but not all cats are lynxes.

[sparkey]

School is the beginning of killing a free mind, like I said already.

And there is some truth in saying there is no truth.

There are many truths .. It's as simple as that.

Many truths have a logical reason to say there is not ONE truth at all.

Deduction.

Just like.. A lynx is a cat, but not all cats are lynxes.

But if all truths said that there is not one truth, then there would be one truth: that there is not one truth (a contradiction). If there is at least one truth that says that there is one truth, then there would have to be one truth, otherwise that wouldn't be true within that sub-truth, either.

[LeBrok]

Oh sparkey, you mixed his mind well this time!
He won't post for a week from all the confusion now,....I hope.

[Antigone]

Perhaps the word "truth" needs a definition first?

Truth is often confused with interpretation, as I think it was in the context originally used above.

One man's truth is another's lie, as the saying goes.

[LeBrok]

You must be the Greek who opened the Pandora's box. ;) ...half truths, opinions, subjectivism, objectivism, view points, assumptions, believes, and Reineartism (everyone with a different point of view is a CIA agent).

Later

[sparkey]

Perhaps the word "truth" needs a definition first?

Truth is often confused with interpretation, as I think it was in the context originally used above.

One man's truth is another's lie, as the saying goes.

That reminds me of Wittgenstein's later work. The gist of it was that most philosophical disagreements result not from anything actually substantial, but from confusion about terms. So, I don't think Wittgenstein would accept that I have disproven Reinaert's statement, just that I have used the term "truth" in a different way. Hmm...

[Reinaert]

That reminds me of Wittgenstein's later work. The gist of it was that most philosophical disagreements result not from anything actually substantial, but from confusion about terms. So, I don't think Wittgenstein would accept that I have disproven Reinaert's statement, just that I have used the term "truth" in a different way. Hmm...

Well, what Americans advertise as truth is often a lie in European eyes.
And yes, words have different meanings.

Liberal is in American eyes a somewhat leftist policy, but in European eyes liberal is more a conservative view.
So that's why Americans shouldn't spam a European forum with their views, and show no respect for Europeans.

[sparkey]

Well, what Americans advertise as truth is often a lie in European eyes.

To avoid any confusion, you're using the term "truth" here in the "interpretation" sense that Antigone brought up.

Liberal is in American eyes a somewhat leftist policy, but in European eyes liberal is more a conservative view.

Good example. I've always preferred the European terminology, it's less ambiguous. I find myself to be somewhat of a right-wing liberal in European terminology, ala the German FDP, but if I describe myself as a "right-wing liberal" in America, it doesn't make sense to people.

So that's why Americans shouldn't spam a European forum with their views, and show no respect for Europeans.

I don't see how this follows. Explain?

[Reinaert]

Well.. I should have said..
Most Americans on this forum.. ;)

Read the thread again..
Some are constantly using abusive methods to kill the debates.

A result of Schopenhauers writings about how to win an arguement.

http://www.mnei.nl/schopenhauer/38-stratagems.htm

[Gusar]

Values are undervalued in human relations. Values are everything.

[Riccardo]

Do you know that it's not easy to start and talk in such general way? That's why I'll comment your opinions from my point of view! =P

What divides and unites people more than beliefs, values and opinions ?

It may be a double-edge sword to express them, as you never know what reaction to expect from others. On the other hand, everybody has beliefs, values and opinions, and if you have reflected properly about them, you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself for holding them, as long as you can defend them. Once you can't defend them anymore, nothing prevents you from changing them...

So here is a sample of my mind as of today :

Beliefs

- I believe that the universe is eternal (both in past and future) and infinite in every direction. Therefore I do not believe in the creation or end of the universe. Reality cannot cease to exist (except in our minds when we die). Nothing is "created", matter/energy just changes form.

I agree with you, creation as concept has just a human and terrain sense, that's why I don't believe in any "creator", it's just the existence.

- I believe that life is a biochemical process that does not require any such thing as a(n immortal) soul.

I don't know about that, but if an ethereal part of life exists, it's always terrain and it does not depend on superior things imo.

- I believe in life after death in the sense that a life being is composed of eternal matter/energy, which has an eternity to form other life beings in the future (and has in the past).

I agree.

- I do not believe in any god(s), supernatural powers or miracles. Everything has a scientific explanation, even if we haven't figured it out yet.

I agree and we have to consider that scientific explanations don't only solve problems, they open other more questions. We're just part of the universe.

- I believe in an infinity of extrterrestrial life somewhere in the universe, because possibilities are infinite in an infinite universe. However, I doubt that any UFO has ever come to our Earth. Rumours are too inconsistent and stereotypical, and obviously linked to our own current advancement in technology.

I totally agree, combinations are infinite and there can be other forms of life that we can't even imagine as we think life on Earth.

- I believe that each individual is absolutely unequal to others in every respect (health, physical and mental strength, sensitivity, attractiveness, character, intelligence, experience, wealth...), except possibly in rights. Even for rights, it is obvious that they differ for people around the world, depending on their nationality (e.g. military service), country and state of residence (e.g. legal age for drinking, driving, etc.), age (minor or adult), gender (e.g. custody of the chidren in case of divorce, pension age), status (civilian, politician, diplomat, or military; single or married), wealth (e.g. for education and medical treatment in many countries), and other factors. The saying "all humans are born equal" sounds like the worst absurdity of political correctness to me.

That's why there is the "jus cogens" and there are other rights that are at the discretion of the countries and their jurisdiction. We should internationally respect a large basis of common rights. Then, it depends on the cultures and on the differences among countries.


Values

- I value knowledge, intelligence, rationality, creativity, progress, self-improvement, continual change for the better, self-responsibility, peace, beauty, harmony...

Yes. They are important serenity, tranquillity, safety, reflexivity and respect too.

- "Better nothing than something bad."

Of course!

- I strongly disregard hypocrisy, dishonesty, and lies (about facts, not feelings or emotions).

This is really general and large...If you're just talking about information it's ok, but it's even true that nowdays there are a lot of media with which you can take true informations. Obviously not all can reach that and we should solve it. In a more general sense I think that the most important thing is to have honest intentions.


Opinions

- I am for the death penalty for dictators, heads of states, military leaders, leaders of terrorist/criminal organisations, who carry the responsibility of the acts committed by their subordinates. I am against death penalty in most other cases.

I am against the death penalty in any case. To accept it even in the most extreme case means that someone should put a boarder where it is considered right or wrong. And who can do it? I think it would be a pretext to extend it. There are a lot of way to punish people and I think that life sentence is more difficult to serve.

- I do not donate to humanitarian aid because I consider that too much of it is wasted, goes to the organisations' administrators or to corrupted officials, or serves to finance wars that only worsen humanitarian problems. Trust issue, due to the numerous abuses that have been revealed. I cannot help but see people who keep donating to humanitarian funds as naive.

I don't know. Surely what you said is right, but I can assure that there are a lot of good people too who do everything to help. Of course, if you do so, you have to choose a formal and a special organization. What is certain is that West World should start to think seriously to change the way we think to help other people all around the world. Less economic/cultural/scientific colonialism, more concrete help and this means that we should mostly collaborate about with education, training of professionals, technology, etc. in order to improve the real developement.

- I am for individual freedom to consume drugs (alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, cocaine, chocolate, coffee, etc.) or other addictive products (video games, pornography, TV, music...) on the principle that everybody is free to do what they want with their own body and health. However, I am against smoking in public places as it endangers the health of others. I am also against any other public behaviour that is harmful or disturbing to others, such as listening very loud music in one's car with the windows open.

I agree but not about cocaine and hard drugs. Or at least if you want to consume it, you should do it alone at home or it can be dangerous for other people too. Of course, there should be more education about addiction problems.

- I am pro-abortion, even after 3 months, if it can prevent a child from being born in a negative environment (due to poverty or immaturity of the parents), or prevent the parents from having to raise a disabled child.

I agree, but it should be well regulated and safe.

- I think that parents are fully responsible for their child(ren)'s education and well-being, and should have a minimum of maturity and financial means to be allowed to procreate. I do not understand how people who want to adopt have to be subjected to numerous tests, psychological analysis, and have proven, stable revenues, for the sake of a child given up by an irresponsible mother (e.g. too young or too poor), but that anyone else is free to make children without restrictions. This just does not make sense. What revolts me most is mother beggars who use their children to try to obtain the pity of people. I just want to tell them "If you don't have enough money to feed your children, don't make any, or abort in time ! Why should we sympathise for people who have irresponsible sex, then become irresponsible parents whose children will probably become delinquents or criminals because of them ?"

I agree, to be parents is the most delicate task because it will form people that will live in the future societies. Many people are parents without any knowledge and this is a problem.

[gervais]

I do not believe that the universe is eternal and infinite.
Our universe began with the existence of space and time. Before, it can not call a universe.
I do not believe in extra-terrestrial because I do not believe in the infinite.

I think that humans will never live anywhere else than on earth.

I don't believe in god, but I do not mean anti-religious. On other hand, I do not want to influence someone on this opinion. Some people need to believe...

[L.D.Brousse]

I believe all men are created equal. And I believe all men have the right to practice their own religion as long as it does not strip the rights from another to practice his. I believe in the possibility of all things they say are not possible.I believe in giving my trust to all until they prove me wrong. I value culture history and art I value the subtle differences in all that make us who we are. I do lean way right and I'm quick to jump into the fight.I try to walk a straight line through this short life at times I may stumble but for the most part I get back on track

[Nordsee]

I believe the universe has an end. I don't think infinity exists. I believe that the universe has been created by a higher being (and that's not god as we humans imagine him/her/it). I don't believe in the holy books. Maybe some or many or the most stories are true or partly true, but I think the "magical" things aren't. Example: Jesus made wine out of water... I think it's a lie or he used some tricks. I think all the "facts" and believes about god (doesn't matter what religion) are created by the imagination of people a long time ago. I believe in a kind of god, like I said in a higher being, but to me the role of tat creature only was to create the universe, the big bang. After that the higher being did not do anything more. I don't believe this being did or does anything here on Earth. I'm not sure if this being even knows about our existance. I do celebrate christian events like christmas or easter but that has just a traditional aspect to me, not a religious.

I believe the universe is kind of programmed, like a videogame. How does a chestnut know that it needs spikes to protect itself from natural enemies? Or what being does know or think that it needs spikes or that spikes are the best way for a chestnut to protect itself? I really don't believe that something like the big bang and the universe in it's whole complexity happened by accident.

----------

I am not for the death penalty. I don't think we humans have the right to decide who should live and die.

I don't think abortion is right (that's probably not in the sense of mother nature), circumstances doesn't matter.

I believe in intelligence life in outer space.

I believe in "ghosts".

[roseroser]

Believe that life is worth living and your belief will help create the fact.
William James

[JinJin]

I believe in God.
I believe that our deeds return to us at last.
I believe that each person has his/her soulmate in this world.
I believe that nothing happens for no particular reason.

[LeBrok]

I believe in God.
I believe that our deeds return to us at last.
I believe that each person has his/her soulmate in this world.
I believe that nothing happens for no particular reason.

You are spiritual to the max! It is interesting that 99.999% of soulmates speak the same language and live in same city.

[Dinarid]

I am kind of religious, but I very strongly believe in God and life after death (the soul or conscious entity continues). I believe that some things cannot be explained by science- although I see scientific evidence for life after death as sufficient. I believe that there should be a balance between personal freedom and traditional values, which makes sense being from the eastern half of Europe. For me the family is most important. I believe it is important for society to promote altruism which is an essential human value, but I put my own people first. Other people are the most important thing in life, again most of all family, then friends.

[last-resort]

What divides and unites people more than beliefs, values and opinions ?

It may be a double-edge sword to express them, as you never know what reaction to expect from others. On the other hand, everybody has beliefs, values and opinions, and if you have reflected properly about them, you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself for holding them, as long as you can defend them. Once you can't defend them anymore, nothing prevents you from changing them...

So here is a sample of my mind as of today :

.....

I have my response using yours as a basis for comparison/similarity. Mostly we are largely apart. I have a brief version of yours followed by mine. I will add that the fairly common, non-Western practice of killing people for how/what they think is a big change that is needed. Thought that I would emphasize that as I doubt many will read much of the rest. Also, that while I mostly disagree, you set out a nice base.

Beliefs

- universe is eternal (both in past and future) and infinite in every direction.

No. While I have no concept of why there would be a Big Bang, I can accept it. That would be the beginning, even if were part of some type of oscillation – Big Bang –Expansion - Collapse. Reality does not cease to exist - matter/energy just changes form.

- life is a biochemical process….

Yes, but that does not preclude any such thing as a(n immortal) soul.

- believe in life after death in the sense that a life being is composed of eternal matter/energy….

Yes, so that is what a ‘soul’ is.

- do not believe in any god(s), supernatural powers or miracles.

No. Not everything has a scientific explanation, even if we think we have figured it out.

- believe in an infinity of extraterrestrial life somewhere in the universe, …. doubt that any UFO has ever come to our Earth.

Possibly. Belief is too strong a term, The odds are that there are ETs, but life, while abundant on this planet, is very fragile and complex. As to UFO visitation to Earth, possibly also. Our own current advancement in technology allows us to view findings that were overlooked before.

- believe that each individual is absolutely unequal to others in every respect ..., except possibly in rights.

Each individual is born different from each other, except identical twins (excepting birth order, birth defects, early illness, and the like). Nonetheless, differences at birth do not detract from any human’s rights with respect to any other human being. Therefore, all humans are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator (or if you desire, endowed by a common Humanity of personhood) with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, and other rights, including the freedom to think and hold beliefs that are different than the group, however defined. But in thinking or being different, a human must be responsible for the consequences of being different, as may be reasonably anticipated.


Values

- value knowledge, intelligence, rationality, creativity, progress, self-improvement, continual change for the better, self-responsibility, peace, beauty, harmony... But peace, beauty and harmony, and especially progress, cannot be solely group norms.

- "Better nothing than something bad." No. “Better tried and failed, than not tried at all.”

- I strongly disregard hypocrisy, dishonesty, and lies (about facts, not feelings or emotions). Almost. I strongly detest hypocrisy, dishonesty, and lies, except humans are too often in conditions that force them to lie. Also, lies in a social context so as to avoid hurt feelings are usually acceptable (there are exceptions). And making up for dishonesty takes more than an apology. It requires restitution as a minimum, and an apology.


Opinions

- for the death penalty for dictators, heads of states, …, who carry the responsibility of the acts committed by their subordinates. In theory, I am for the death penalty for anyone who has taken another’s life, or has permanently and severely disabled a person, or permanently maimed a person so as to make that person socially unappealing. In practice, I would set a high standard of evidence before sentencing a person to death.

- do not donate to humanitarian aid because I consider that too much of it is wasted, goes to the organisations' administrators or to corrupted officials, or serves to finance wars …. No. It is a virtue to extend aid to others. Good for the ‘soul’ or self-worth. Bogus charities abound, but in at least one country, a great deal can be discovered regarding how much of the donation goes to the intend beneficiaries, and who is paid, etc. People who keep donating to virtuous humanitarian funds are blessed.

- for individual freedom to consume drugs (alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, cocaine, chocolate, coffee, etc.) or other addictive products (video games, pornography, TV, music...)…. am against smoking in public places …. am also against any other public behaviour that is harmful or disturbing to others….. Generally agreed as to adults. Adult humans should be treated as adults, responsible to themselves and society at large.

- am pro-abortion, even after 3 months, if it can prevent a child from being born in a negative environment … or prevent the parents from having to raise a disabled child. No. In the trope of treating adult humans as adults, abortion as a convenience should never be approved, nor non-consensual abortions performed absent mental deficiency of the mother (not as eugenics). And, it is very easy to detect and to abort a fetus much earlier than 3 months. Consensual abortions are to be allowed for rape, incest and the life of the mother. In the case of rape, an under-aged woman’s family can insist on an abortion, but not prevail on preventing one. In the case of saving the life of a mother, if the mother has other children at home, then the abortion cannot be refused.

- that parents are fully responsible for their child(ren)'s education and well-being, and should have a minimum of maturity and financial means to be allowed to procreate. Mostly agree, except for the financial aspects. And tough to enforce without compulsory abortion, which can quickly devolve to eugenics. Parenting and parenting skills, fully revealed, ought to be mandatory subjects in about 8^th grade (13-14 years old) for both sexes. Included, or as separate subject, should be ‘domestic finances’, so that the real world is very clear to them. Also, but may be passé, is a marriage class, that explains that ‘marriage’ is not just romance, sex and inter-personal this and that, but is a civil state under the law. The couple is a unit in the eyes of the state (I assume this is true through most of Europe).


From Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life:

Grim Reaper: Shut up, you American. You Americans, all you do is talk, and talk, and say "let me tell you something" and "I just wanna say." Well, you're dead now, so shut up.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/quotes