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Thread: European Serial Killers

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    European Serial Killers



    Surfing through the web I came across a few interesting statistics, 85% of all serial killers come from America (USA) according to the FBI, there are at least 35 at large any one time who have not been identified (They are not known or being actively sought although they have already committed their first crime), the majority are white male. While the FBI put it at 20 – 50 Joel Norris in his 1990 book Serial Killers The Growing Menace put it as many as 500.

    Serial Killers are usually defined as having killed 2 or more unrelated victims in separate incidents. They often target prostitutes, runaways and others who lead transient and anonymous lives usually not reported missing promptly and receive little police or media attention.

    Now the USA has approx. 300 million people and Europe (27 nation block) 500 million with plenty of white males. Is it possible we have our own serial killers in equivalent numbers in Europe who go undetected?

    There have been plenty to date coming from European countries for example:

    • Marc Dutroux Belgium
    • Antti Taskinen Finland
    • Thierry Paulin France
    • Volker Eckert Germany
    • Fred Rose West GB

    The list goes on and on.

    But if we had how would we know? In America they have the FBI Behavioural unit, is there a European equivalent? Or is it down to departments in the individual European National police forces?

    Do individual countries, or even better at a European level keep statistics on missing persons? Figures that could be compared with America and allowances made for the distorted effect of conflicts like Yugoslavia.

    I assume that would be a good place to start anyone any ideas?

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    Europe alreday has Europol. They are the ones looking for cross-border criminals within the EU since 1999. There is a reference to it in the film Ocean's 12.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Europe alreday has Europol. They are the ones looking for cross-border criminals within the EU since 1999. There is a reference to it in the film Ocean's 12.

    These are frequently asked questions and answers from EUROPOL.
    Is Europol a European FBI?


    No. Europol has no executive powers. The European Police Office is a support service for the law enforcement agencies of the EU Member States. This means that Europol officials are not entitled to arrest suspects or act without the approval of national authorities. However, the support provided by Europol consists of tools that can contribute to the executive measures carried out by the relevant national authorities. The tools are: fast information exchange, sophisticated intelligence analysis, co-ordination, expertise and training.

    What is Europol's mandate?


    In short, Europol supports the law enforcement activities of the Member States mainly against:
    • illicit drug trafficking;
    • illicit immigration networks;
    • terrorism;
    • forgery of money (counterfeiting of the Euro) and other means of payment;
    • trafficking in human beings including child pornography;
    • illicit vehicle trafficking;
    • money-laundering.
    In addition, other main priorities for Europol include crimes against persons, financial crime and cyber crime. All of these apply where an organised criminal structure is involved and two or more Member States are affected.
    Europolfs mandate includes all forms of serious crime as mentioned in Article 2 of the Europol Convention.

    No doubt a worthwhile organisation but I don't think they are interested in serial killers.

    Over the last 15-20 years a number of women have gone missing in Ireland under suspicious circumstances, a one point the police were looking at the theory that perhaps one person may have been responsible. They eventually ruled a serial killer out but with no bodies (no crime) conventional forces maybe limited, I could be wrong here but I think they went to America for assistance with profiling, do you not think it strange Europe has not branched into this area by now?

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    Yet, in the link you posted :

    List of other serious forms of international crime which Europol could deal with in addition to those already provided for in Article 2(2) in compliance with Europol's objective as set out in Article 2(1).

    Against life, limb or personal freedom:

    * murder, grievous bodily injury
    ...

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    France holds man over 18 murders

    A 68-year-old man has been arrested by French police on suspicion of murdering 18 people, most of them homosexuals, between 1980 and 2002, officials say.

    During the 1980s, there was a spate of unsolved murders of homosexuals across the border from Mulhouse in the French-speaking part of Switzerland.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7116628.stm

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    18 murders over 22 years involving the movement accross at least 2 state lines.

    The arrest followed a 2 year investigation by a Montbeliard police officier, who spotted the suspects name in database files relating to a string of unsolved murders.

    I haven't come accross a mention of Europol in any of the reports yet but I wonder could a FBI style agency have been of benefit here?

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    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...749573,00.html

    Experts Say New Alert System Needed in EU Child Searches

    Are these the first painful steps towards a more integrated police network in Europe? With the free movement of goods and peoples (and criminals) more urgency should be placed on the matter.

    France has proposed setting up European Police stations in tourist areas staffed by officers from all over the Eu, long over due.

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    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...e-1433814.html

    {The Garda Inspectorate is to consider whether the setting up of a dedicated unit would help the force to trace missing people.

    It will also examine the introduction of a response network similar to the US "amber alert" model.}

    About bloody time but it should be a EU wide unit.

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    You should look into Thomas Quick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starship View Post
    Surfing through the web I came across a few interesting statistics, 85% of all serial killers come from America (USA) according to the FBI, there are at least 35 at large any one time who have not been identified (They are not known or being actively sought although they have already committed their first crime), the majority are white male. While the FBI put it at 20 – 50 Joel Norris in his 1990 book Serial Killers The Growing Menace put it as many as 500.

    Serial Killers are usually defined as having killed 2 or more unrelated victims in separate incidents. They often target prostitutes, runaways and others who lead transient and anonymous lives usually not reported missing promptly and receive little police or media attention.

    Now the USA has approx. 300 million people and Europe (27 nation block) 500 million with plenty of white males. Is it possible we have our own serial killers in equivalent numbers in Europe who go undetected?

    There have been plenty to date coming from European countries for example:

    • Marc Dutroux Belgium
    • Antti Taskinen Finland
    • Thierry Paulin France
    • Volker Eckert Germany
    • Fred Rose West GB

    The list goes on and on.

    But if we had how would we know? In America they have the FBI Behavioural unit, is there a European equivalent? Or is it down to departments in the individual European National police forces?

    Do individual countries, or even better at a European level keep statistics on missing persons? Figures that could be compared with America and allowances made for the distorted effect of conflicts like Yugoslavia.

    I assume that would be a good place to start anyone any ideas?


    Maybe U.S.A is a country easier for a psycho act; is more spacious, when i see films or reports, i´m surprised by the open spaces in many areas, compared, it seems that in Europe we live in a sardine can: this is good for anonymity. On the other hand, there are large number of psychopaths in the world who will never act, this is because they have a strong sense of survival and are deterred by the idea of going to jail or suffer any damage in his own person.

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    On the other hand, there are large number of psychopaths in the world who will never act, this is because they have a strong sense of survival and are deterred by the idea of going to jail or suffer any damage in his own person.
    How do you know that?!
    What about them abusing wives, husbands, kids, the easiest prey. You're sure they will resist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    How do you know that?!
    What about them abusing wives, husbands, kids, the easiest prey. You're sure they will resist?
    Hi, well, i´m studient of psichology, i mean, i´m not an expert, but in college, they say there are many psychopaths and probably you will find some of them in some moments of your life; these personalities are characterized by tendencies to sadism, 0 empathy, aggressiveness, egocentrism etc some en up being murderes or serial killers, but probably most of them have a strong survival instinct ; this includes social survival, may appear to be normal people, and not to kill, but do harm in many ways, less obvious; just they are what popular culture calls "bad persons"...however, is a very complicated issue and also very controversial. Of course, is very probably they abuse people around, as you say, husbands, wives, kids...but just you don´t know because it is not so obvious. Even some children clearly show these trends still very little, but you can´t do too much, because you can´t even diagnose a personality disorder to them officially until eighteen: is very complicated and i'm not very advanced in the university, so may i can be a bit wrong in some points but that's what i heard from some teachers.

    Please, forgive my spelling mistakes.

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    Don't apologies, your English is great and better than mine, :)
    I agree with your posts. My point was that serial killers are the extreme case of psychopaths. Most of them are not going to the extreme of torturing to death, but thrive on small mischieves , and suffering of people around them. Many of them pick an occupation to be in position of power, like person guards, drill sergeants, orphanages, even teachers, etc.
    I wish you luck in your study. Make our planet a safer place. :)
    Welcome to Eupedia loladunas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Don't apologies, your English is great and better than mine, :)
    I agree with your posts. My point was that serial killers are the extreme case of psychopaths. Most of them are not going to the extreme of torturing to death, but thrive on small mischieves , and suffering of people around them. Many of them pick an occupation to be in position of power, like person guards, drill sergeants, orphanages, even teachers, etc.
    I wish you luck in your study. Make our planet a safer place. :)
    Welcome to Eupedia loladunas.
    Hi, Lebrock, then you wanted to say the shame...thanks for the welcome¡

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    But with our numerous National governments, police forces and legal systems (jurisdictions) and relatively litlle land borders could there be several undetected (or unrecognized patterns) serial killers at large in the Union as we speak.

    Would a European FBI style agency be of benefit to us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starship View Post
    But with our numerous National governments, police forces and legal systems (jurisdictions) and relatively litlle land borders could there be several undetected (or unrecognized patterns) serial killers at large in the Union as we speak.

    Would a European FBI style agency be of benefit to us?
    No, not at all.

    In Europe the states pretty well know all about their people.
    In the USA, you can commit a crime, move to another state, and nobody finds out about it.
    That's why the FBI is necessary over there.
    In Europe, social control is better, but the administration goofs sometimes in a dramatic way.
    In the Netherlands a suicidal freak killed people shooting at random, and then taking his own life.
    The idiot even had a permit for weapons, because he was a member of a shooting club.
    Even if weapons are put under heavy restrictions, they will be abused!!
    So, if shooting weapons are easy to get, you get serial killers on the warpath.

    Killing with a knive, an axe, a hammer or a sword is so much more hard to do.
    A normal human being feels the fear, the sweating, the smell of blood and guts.
    How much easier it is to shoot a gun. And even bomb a target from a plane.

    So, the real serial killers are up in the sky.
    Have a good night, and sweet dreams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ina View Post
    You should look into Thomas Quick



    I had a quick look at Thomes, Im not sure he qualifies as a serial killer, a fantasist certainly and a golden opportunity for the police to clear a back log of unsolved crimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    No, not at all.

    In Europe the states pretty well know all about their people.
    In the USA, you can commit a crime, move to another state, and nobody finds out about it.
    That's why the FBI is necessary over there.
    In Europe, social control is better, but the administration goofs sometimes in a dramatic way.
    In the Netherlands a suicidal freak killed people shooting at random, and then taking his own life.
    The idiot even had a permit for weapons, because he was a member of a shooting club.
    Even if weapons are put under heavy restrictions, they will be abused!!
    So, if shooting weapons are easy to get, you get serial killers on the warpath.

    Killing with a knive, an axe, a hammer or a sword is so much more hard to do.
    A normal human being feels the fear, the sweating, the smell of blood and guts.
    How much easier it is to shoot a gun. And even bomb a target from a plane.

    So, the real serial killers are up in the sky.
    Have a good night, and sweet dreams.


    Hi Reinaert

    Nicolas Panard killed 11 people and he used knives and blunt force trauma, both Marc Dutroux and Antlli Taskinen used drugs among other things but no guns. That aside there are no shortage of legally and illegally held fire arms in Europe, but as our American friends in the NRA are fold of telling us, guns dont kill people, people kill people and in the case of serial killers I would have to agree with them (Its not the act of a sane person).

    The method of killing does not interest me here just the use of borders and different jurisdictions to evade capture or even recognize that a serial killer is at work. Its all very well going to Europol for assistance if you know what your looking for but who tries to tie up different suspicious deaths if they occur in different countries and appear on different police forces data bases?

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    Well Starship, we're no United States of Europe. Therefore there can be cooperation between police forces via Interpol. But not British police poking around in Ireland, to name one example.

    I was talking about extreme violence, and the first step to detect a possible risk before it strikes.
    And that lies more in the path of education and healthcare.
    The American way is much more repressive, to seek and destroy after the event happened.
    If a criminal commits a crime in Europe, it is very hard to get away with it, certainly in his own region.
    The weak spot is if for example if a Dutchman commits a crime in Spain, and then travels to Poland or so.
    Just like in The United States.
    But here comes another advantage of Europe:
    The problem for the criminal would certainly be the different languages.

    1) A man cannot do much wrong in his own region, unless he is in a mafia like organization, that gives him shelter.

    2) A man has problems abroad, in another culture, with another language. Difficult to stay away from the police.

    3) In Europe there is more state control, and more police then in the USA.

    4) The media and printed press exaggerates a lot to simply sell their products.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Well Starship, we're no United States of Europe. Therefore there can be cooperation between police forces via Interpol. But not British police poking around in Ireland, to name one example.

    I was talking about extreme violence, and the first step to detect a possible risk before it strikes.
    And that lies more in the path of education and healthcare.
    The American way is much more repressive, to seek and destroy after the event happened.
    If a criminal commits a crime in Europe, it is very hard to get away with it, certainly in his own region.
    The weak spot is if for example if a Dutchman commits a crime in Spain, and then travels to Poland or so.
    Just like in The United States.
    But here comes another advantage of Europe:
    The problem for the criminal would certainly be the different languages.

    1) A man cannot do much wrong in his own region, unless he is in a mafia like organization, that gives him shelter.

    2) A man has problems abroad, in another culture, with another language. Difficult to stay away from the police.

    3) In Europe there is more state control, and more police then in the USA.

    4) The media and printed press exaggerates a lot to simply sell their products.

    European and American culture are very different and our attitude and delivery of healthcare especially mental health is dealt with I think differently, where as in Europe we are more inclined to commit people into homes or hospitals in the US I think they take a different approach under their constitution for the protection of personal freedom – but I’m certainly open to correction there.

    Would language always act as a barrier? Consider a long distance lorry driver traveling the length and breath of Europe, if he was killing prostitutes at random in different countries, would a pattern appear ? no one keeps to close an eye on the vulnerable in society and the likes of Thomas Quick would probably be blamed for local murders by local police.

    Your right I cant see British police being to welcome snooping around Ireland, anymore than French would be welcome in Belgium or German in Finland, I’m sure the FBI have some similar problems with different state police in the US. So if we were to set up a EU FBI I would imagine police officers would have to be recruited from each of the member states and then only send in agents into their own countries to smooth over any local resistance, at the end of the day they would be there to assist local cops.

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    Hmm.. There is not a single western European truck driver that isn't watched by his own company.
    They can monitor where trucks go.
    Anyone staying in a car, van or truck for a longer period will have a visit from the police.

    I think you're exaggerating your story.

    The cases you mentioned were very rare.
    Areas where social control is bad.
    Where old buildings are not very well monitored.

    If someone really plans something really bad, he has to do it very clever.
    Or it will fail..

    There are lots of cases where criminals were taken behind bars, because they did stupid things.

    For example a kidnapping, where criminals hired a little house on a camping.
    They were discovered a few hours after the kidnapping.

    A civilian has to be alert. An omnipotent police force can easily be used for political agenda's.
    With right wing governments in Europe, people have more and more distrust for the state, police and justice.

    There is way too much attention for non existing terrorists.
    Meanwhile there is drugs traffic, and a lively trade in women and girls to get them into prostitution.
    And not to forget the weapon trades.

    All these things come from outside of the EU.

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    Hmm.. Not interested in horror.

    I wonder where the thin line is between interest and obsession.

    If you play with fire, you might burn your fingers.
    The same goes for sick behavior.
    I once spoke a man who had worked as a psychiatric medic between people with a criminal background,
    and he told me he had to quit after 7 years.
    He was afraid of getting insane himself.

    My brother in law is a police officer, and he also told me how ice cold some criminals can be.
    Psychopaths can really give you the shivers. Emotionally very shocking.
    My best advise is... Stay out of it.
    Reality is more shocking than fiction ever will be.

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    I know pretty horrific, I watched a documentary recently about how the writer of the Silence of the Lambs spent time with the newly formed behavioral science unit in the FBI researching before he wrote the book. He based his characters on real life serial killers, Ted Bundy and some other guy in the 50's who wanted to become a woman and so skinned his victims to make a kind of suit. OK creepy and repulsive beyond belief, but that’s not the point of this thread.

    People like this exist and do what they do, with the travel restrictions between much of Europe now gone they can move freely through different jurisdictions our law enforcement authorities cant. Its all very good saying we are not an unites states of Europe (I can understand that whole heartedly) but the reality on the ground is as far as criminals are concerned we are.

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    Well.. So what?

    Even if there are some madmen running around, we don't want a "Big Brother is Watching You" kind of Europe.
    Period. Basta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Well.. So what?

    Even if there are some madmen running around, we don't want a "Big Brother is Watching You" kind of Europe.
    Period. Basta.
    So What

    Mmmmmmmmmm that’s a fairly profound answer, what’s a few hundred murders as opposed to your personal freedoms. I argued with a man once who felt people well mainly him should be allowed drive as fast as they liked where ever they liked and if a few kids were knocked down and killed, well so what, kids die every year why should the nanny state encroach on his civil liberties.

    I argued before that I thought the smoking ban in Ireland and well most of Europe was detrimental to personal choice and freedom but I was definitely in the minority.
    Do you feel Reinhaert that drink driving laws, gun laws, drug laws are also to repressive ?

    Are you fine with your own National laws and just don’t want states colluding in the prevention of crimes, bringing criminals sans frontiers to justice? If our police forces cant cross borders should we consider scrapping the Schengen agreement?

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