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Thread: Hunter-gatherers more violent than farmers

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    So the UAE is selling oil for weapons, in Canada we sell wood and wheat for weapons to USA. In both ways they are normal trading transactions in which both parties benefit. What else UAE can sell to by arms? What else do they produce, sand? They sell oil to by everything, therefore this is not coincidence that they sell oil to by weapons, right?
    Now we still far away from your picture of US stealing Iraq's oil. This is a very serious accusation dude, I hope you have something to show for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    So the UAE is selling oil for weapons, in Canada we sell wood and wheat for weapons to USA. In both ways they are normal trading transactions in which both parties benefit. What else UAE can sell to by arms? What else do they produce, sand? They sell oil to by everything, therefore this is not coincidence that they sell oil to by weapons, right?
    Now we still far away from your picture of US stealing Iraq's oil. This is a very serious accusation dude, I hope you have something to show for it.
    i already try to show too much about what is happening lebrok. i wait something from you other than "hmm"

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    663 bln dollar is very close to the total expenditure of the rest of the world. and 6 times more than china which is second in total expenditure.

    afghanistan is responsible for 90% of the global heroin output

    opium production in the country has grown more than 40 times over since 2001

    During İran-Iraq war US supported Iraq because of Irans well-known ideological dreams. However, a kind of wikileaks showed that (in 1986) US was selling weapons to Iran also (see iran-gate, in Reagan era
    i already try to show too much about what is going on lebrok. i wait something from you other than "hmm"

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    Lebrok's question was how you can show that the US benefits from the war in, for example, Afghanistan. Your answer is that Afghanistan sells 90% of the global heroin output and it's production is growing ever since. What kind of answer is that?

    So the US gets cheaper heroin now which it can sell to it's people? Is it unfairly refined in the US then? Do they sell it with usury to local dealers or does the government hand it out to the addicts directly? Do they pay money for it or do they trade weapons for heroin? Is the US trying to maintain a war through local tribesmen in Afghanistan so that the heroin trade keeps flourishing on US streets? I don't get it!

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    Sorry Barbarian, I'm just running a bit short of free time these days. I'll come back at you later in few days when I done my research.

    I was responding to you regarding more information. Things that you say are new to me, we don't know them from mass-media or even from talking to friends. Therefore as Mzungu pointed out you have to argument your hypothesis a bit better. We need logical continuity of your proof. Like A comes from B, B from C etc, something like this. Or B is cost of war, C is the revenue from war, C > B = D profit. Then I'll believe you.
    Also if heroin from Afghanistan is US revenue of war, then you really have to prove that it exist. Hundred billion dollar of heroin shipment requires huge manpower to move it around the world. Don't you think we wouldn't know that by now? Too many people involved, plus journalists would be all over the hottest story of the century. Right? But somehow only people in Turkey know that, hmmm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sorry Barbarian, I'm just running a bit short of free time these days. I'll come back at you later in few days when I done my research.

    I was responding to you regarding more information. Things that you say are new to me, we don't know them from mass-media or even from talking to friends. Therefore as Mzungu pointed out you have to argument your hypothesis a bit better. We need logical continuity of your proof. Like A comes from B, B from C etc, something like this. Or B is cost of war, C is the revenue from war, C > B = D profit. Then I'll believe you.
    Also if heroin from Afghanistan is US revenue of war, then you really have to prove that it exist. Hundred billion dollar of heroin shipment requires huge manpower to move it around the world. Don't you think we wouldn't know that by now? Too many people involved, plus journalists would be all over the hottest story of the century. Right? But somehow only people in Turkey know that, hmmm.
    this is an illegal job, you cannot see your A,B C here. i wrote what i see. i dont represent my country. please dont involve my nationality. it is something personal.

    Mzungu mchagga what do you understand from this sentence:
    "opium production in Afghanistan has grown more than 40 times over since 2001"
    i understand that either US, the superpower, cannot control this area or some people had some free space to produce their products in there.

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    @barbarian & LeBrok

    No, barbarian is right about his facts, I don't want to deny them. There have been quite a lot discussions on European media about the massive opium production in Afghanistan. The problem about this issue here is that barbarian is drawing wrong conclusions. Yes, the US and it's allies are not able to control the vast mountain ranges with the hostile tribes in Afghanistan, so opium farmers and traders have a good advantage there.
    The basic question was, is the opium trade intended by the US and if yes in how far does it benefit from it? That is what barbarian wants to imply.

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    Same here. I don't deny opium production in Afghanistan, or big military industry in US having lobbies and effecting politicians on many levels. I just want better argumentation from Barbarian to prove his points about US benefiting financially in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    @ Barbarina, sorry I had an impression that your opinion is common in Turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Same here. I don't deny opium production in Afghanistan, or big military industry in US having lobbies and effecting politicians on many levels. I just want better argumentation from Barbarian to prove his points about US benefiting financially in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    @ Barbarina, sorry I had an impression that your opinion is common in Turkey.
    i wonder what would you think if, for example, %90 of the global heroin production would be in the territory which is under the control of turkey.

    it is a mass production and comes from fields, it is very easy to catch it. i can even see my car parking in front of house from google earth. and US cannot find and destroy these fields(?).

    http://blog.thegooddrugsguide.com/wp...fghanistan.jpg

    ok at least read these, you can find a lot more article like these in the net.

    http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2008...ghanistan.html

    http://lukery.blogspot.com/2009/08/u...-carrying.html

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    Well if US and Nato was in control of Afghanistan there wouldn't be much fighting and dieing, right? And Taliban would be conquered and history.
    The truth is that Taliban have greater support among the population than Western Countries, especially among peasants. Taliban became a power and ruler of Afghanistan, because of their agricultural "reform". Taliban took land from landlords and divided it between all villagers. The rest was done by terror and executions.
    Now we have poor peasants growing poppy and benefiting directly. Life is good for villagers. Now Nato comes chases away Taliban and starts destroying the poppy fields.....WOW, if there was any support for West among villagers, then it was fast gone. That was the reason Taliban is back and have friends among peasants. It is hard to defeat enemy like this without the support of locals.
    I'm sure that's the reason that Nato stopped destroying the poppy fields to rebuilt local support. Besides they are too busy looking for Taliban and road side bombs these days. On top of it you have corrupted Afghan government that most likely is in control of opium trade. West have to tiptoe around Karzai, as he is the leader of newly build and fragile "friend" in this region.

    Now, are there some coffins coming with opium in them from Afghanistan? Probably yes. We know there were some coffins coming to US with narcotics during Vietnam War. But these were small enterprises run be some soldiers and officers illegally. There was never US government and CIA operation on industrial scale to benefit financially from drugs. And there is none now in Afghanistan. If there was CIA smuggling narcotics in past it was for tactical and not financial gains. Possibly to help Taliban to defeat Soviets couple of decades ago.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

    According to experts that wrote wiki page about Afghanistan opium trade, most of it goes through Iran, Turkey and Russia, the historic and traditional routs.
    There is no agreement how much Afghan opium is worth. Some experts put it at 64 billion, some at 15 or even 3 billion. Mind that Afghan GDP is 12 billion dollars. I think 64 billion then is quite a stretch, but even at 3 or 15 billion it is quite precious for farmers, landlords and Afghan politicians. But still peanuts for US to bother with.
    With steep competition from Iran, Turkey and Russia, US would probably only grab 5 billion of the market. Again it doesn’t make much of financial sense to spend 100 billion a year in Afghanistan war to “steal” their opium, even if it was 50 billion worth of it.

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf

    Here is an article to show you what goes with Iraq’s oil and who gets it.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/12/world/middleeast/12iraq.html
    Looks like government of Iraq controls and sells it and whole world gets it. Seams far away from the notion that US have the exclusive rights even to buy it, not mentioning the stealing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Well if US and Nato was in control of Afghanistan there wouldn't be much fighting and dieing, right? And Taliban would be conquered and history.
    The truth is that Taliban have greater support among the population than Western Countries, especially among peasants. Taliban became a power and ruler of Afghanistan, because of their agricultural "reform". Taliban took land from landlords and divided it between all villagers. The rest was done by terror and executions.
    Now we have poor peasants growing poppy and benefiting directly. Life is good for villagers. Now Nato comes chases away Taliban and starts destroying the poppy fields.....WOW, if there was any support for West among villagers, then it was fast gone. That was the reason Taliban is back and have friends among peasants. It is hard to defeat enemy like this without the support of locals.
    I'm sure that's the reason that Nato stopped destroying the poppy fields to rebuilt local support. Besides they are too busy looking for Taliban and road side bombs these days. On top of it you have corrupted Afghan government that most likely is in control of opium trade. West have to tiptoe around Karzai, as he is the leader of newly build and fragile "friend" in this region.

    Now, are there some coffins coming with opium in them from Afghanistan? Probably yes. We know there were some coffins coming to US with narcotics during Vietnam War. But these were small enterprises run be some soldiers and officers illegally. There was never US government and CIA operation on industrial scale to benefit financially from drugs. And there is none now in Afghanistan. If there was CIA smuggling narcotics in past it was for tactical and not financial gains. Possibly to help Taliban to defeat Soviets couple of decades ago.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

    According to experts that wrote wiki page about Afghanistan opium trade, most of it goes through Iran, Turkey and Russia, the historic and traditional routs.
    There is no agreement how much Afghan opium is worth. Some experts put it at 64 billion, some at 15 or even 3 billion. Mind that Afghan GDP is 12 billion dollars. I think 64 billion then is quite a stretch, but even at 3 or 15 billion it is quite precious for farmers, landlords and Afghan politicians. But still peanuts for US to bother with.
    With steep competition from Iran, Turkey and Russia, US would probably only grab 5 billion of the market. Again it doesn’t make much of financial sense to spend 100 billion a year in Afghanistan war to “steal” their opium, even if it was 50 billion worth of it.

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf

    Here is an article to show you what goes with Iraq’s oil and who gets it.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/12/world/middleeast/12iraq.html
    Looks like government of Iraq controls and sells it and whole world gets it. Seams far away from the notion that US have the exclusive rights even to buy it, not mentioning the stealing.
    i gave you lots of info and question about what i thought, and what i have from you, in my opinion, is not enough. i feel like this topic also strating to look like a boxing match of the two blind men. let us leave these infos to newcomers, they may judge or add some more.

    thanks.

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    Here is what I personally think about it, without direct proof now [so I am willing to change my view]:

    1. The US supports Afghan drug farmers. But not for financial reason, but to keep them on their side and prevent them from changing to the Taliban side. As already stated by LeBrok, the US is also too busy fighting than it could invest it's time in destroying poppy fields.

    2. The US came to Afghanistan for economic reasons mainly. The war against terrorism was more of an excuse with 9/11 as a lucky incident for the US [and NO, 9/11 was NOT created by the CIA but a REAL terrorist attack!]

    3. Initiator was the oil lobby, by which Bush and Cheney acted as a part of it, not as politicians in the interest of the US. If they had expected before that Iraq and Afghanistan war will be a loss for the US-economy, what I think it really is, and in how far they personally benefited from it, only speculation and not known.

    4. If the wars have made the world a safer place now? In reference to the war in Iraq definately not! With the war in Afghanistan, probably a little, as it has prevented a spread of similiar Islamic regimes to it's neighbouring countries.

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    What are you talking about Barbarian? I gave you numbers to work with on Afghan drugs. Now you can calculate yourself if US benefits financially, or if it is worth dicking around for US at all. This makes sense. How else you can understand. I can prove my point on paper with numbers. What bigger proof can you get, without physically being in Afghanistan and seeing how money change hands?
    If you want to convince me, work with numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What are you talking about Barbarian? I gave you numbers to work with on Afghan drugs. Now you can calculate yourself if US benefits financially, or if it is worth dicking around for US at all. This makes sense. How else you can understand. I can prove my point on paper with numbers. What bigger proof can you get, without physically being in Afghanistan and seeing how money change hands?
    If you want to convince me, work with numbers.

    Lebrok,

    I meant that i ask you some questions like:
    US’s 2009 military expenditure was about 650 billion which is almost equal to the total expenditure of the rest of the world (Afghanistan and Iraq not included). So, it is minimum 1 trillion dollars. I asked you “why does US spend this much Money? For global peace and democracy?”. i give you some numbers now. In these two countries there are app. 15 million manpower. If you give 500 $ salary each of them i am sure nobody will fight for taliban anymore. And it will cost about 90 billion a year, which is 10 times less than US's budget each year for peace and democracy. But, it is impossible and meaningless, because in this case, money will go from US to these countries not to global warlords, narcotic traffickers, banks.

    You gave a link summarizing the money spent by US for global defence saying:

    “US global defence budget for 2011 (?) is 1,121 $
    ……
    Of this $1.121 trillion total, CRS estimates that Iraq will receive about $751 billion (67%), OEF (Afghanistan) $336 billion (30%) and enhanced base security about $29 billion (3%), with about $5 billion that CRS cannot allocate (1/2%). About 94% of the funds are for DOD, 5% for foreign aid programs and embassy operations, and 1% for medical care for veterans.”

    But if you read further you will see where the money goes to:

    -military personnel funds to provide special pay for deployed personnel such as
    hostile fire or separation pay and to cover the additional cost of activating
    reservists, as well pay for expanding the Army and Marine Corps to reduce stress
    on troops;
    -Operation and Maintenance (O&M) funds to transport troops and their equipment
    to Iraq and Afghanistan, conduct military operations, provide in-country support
    at bases, and repairing war-worn equipment;
    -Procurement funding to cover buying new weapons systems to replace war
    losses, and upgrade equipment, pay modernization costs associated with
    expanding and changing the structure of the size of the Army and Marine Corps,
    - Research, Development, Test & Evaluation costs to develop more effective ways
    to combat war threats such as roadside bombs;
    -Working Capital Funds to cover expanding the size of inventories of spare parts
    and fuel to provide wartime support; and
    -Military construction primarily to construct”

    Money is going to arms brokers. Or in other words, money goes from one pocket to another. It is very normal, US have a capitalist system, and in capitalist system companies rules the country. It is a kind of side effect.

    About narcotics route and production you wrote:
    According to experts that wrote wiki page about Afghanistan opium trade, most of it goes through Iran, Turkey and Russia, the historic and traditional routes.”

    If you mean that these are the traditional narcotics route. You are wrong 30 years ago people were unaware of drugs in Afghanistan. The production was almost zero. It is a capitalist systems innovation. And with the collapse of USSR, the new emerging markets like Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Ukraine, in addition to “surprising” rise of Somalia and Kurdistan made it very easy to transport the exported articles J.

    Your another question is:
    “Can you tell us how US government controls and benefits from heroin production in Afghanistan. How it could be organized to hidden it from journalists and population in general on big scale? How much could the heroin be worth for US acting as a middle man?”

    i dont say US goverment or CIA do it by themselves. i say some “barons” do it and US goverment dont see them, destroy/eliminate their enemies or competitors etc. Because US know that this money will go to their banks, and these people are under US control. US want the power like all superpowers in the history. And power means money and control here.

    You say:
    There is no agreement how much Afghan opium is worth. Some experts put it at 64 billion, some at 15 or even 3 billion. Mind that Afghan GDP is 12 billion dollars. I think 64 billion then is quite a stretch, but even at 3 or 15 billion it is quite precious for farmers, landlords and Afghan politicians. But still peanuts for US to bother with.”

    it is only about opiums cost lebrok. The Afgan market is minimum 1 trillion/year in final market (and narcotics is the third biggest market in the world after oil and weapon) after refined. can you imagine if all this money would go to taliban?afghanistan would be full of skyscrapers, but i see most of the skyscrapers are in US J (some other countries businesmen” especially ,if they are on the trade routes, also benefits from this trade of course).

    Again, you ask:
    Do you have at least a shred of information that Iraqui's oil is getting stolen, or is it just only your suspicion because it fits your hypothesis?”

    dont think that i say they put the oil on the ships and bring them to US. It would look funny.
    May be these hot news will explain what I am trying to say.
    “Shell was one of the biggest players in iraq from the 1920s right up until nationalisation of the oil industry by Saddam Hussein in 1972.

    The US administration has been running the country's oil industry since the invasion in 2003 but the iraq government is poised to pass new legislation designed to encourage international oil and gas companies to resume exploration and production in the country


    Kurdistan remains one of the least-explored regions in the oilrich Middle East. Analysts estimate it has anything from 12bn to 45bn barrels of oil and up to 100 trillion cubic feet of gas.

    The region is seen by most Western companies as one of the safest parts of iraq and probably the best way back into the war-torn country.

    BG, BP, Exxon, Chevron and Total are said to be interested in taking stakes in the Iraqi industry.”

    So, Arabians must share their profits with global companies, they must buy arms from big producers, they must invest their money in US. Otherwise, you will need democracy.

    This is the funniest part you claim:

    “I'm sure that's the reason that Nato stopped destroying the poppy fields to rebuilt local support. Besides they are too busy looking for Taliban and road side bombs these days. On top of it you have corrupted Afghan government that most likely is in control of opium trade. West have to tiptoe around Karzai, as he is the leader of newly build and fragile "friend" in this region.”

    and mzungu says:
    "If the wars have made the world a safer place now? ... With the war in Afghanistan, probably a little, as it has prevented a spread of similiar Islamic regimes to it's neighbouring countries."



    So do you mean US allow %93 of the global heron production to take the local farmers support. Which one is more dangerous for your heaven: taliban, or heroin. how many young people is dying each year because of drug?

    You must understand that the main financial sources of taliban are those opiums. if you want to stop taliban, then you must destroy those fields. but, who wants to destroy them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post

    So do you mean US allow %93 of the global heron production to take the local farmers support. Which one is more dangerous for your heaven: taliban, or heroin. how many young people is dying each year because of drug?

    You must understand that the main financial sources of taliban are those opiums. if you want to stop taliban, then you must destroy those fields. but, who wants to destroy them.
    Wew, that is a good question! What is worse, heroin or Taliban?
    Seriously, I don't think the US has any efficient concept on that. In a short sited manner they try to fight Taliban in first place, taking the risk of collateral damage of drug addicts, and taking the risk, too, of supporting Taliban, because of a lack of other alternatives. Besides fighting.

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    Oh, and another thing. How should they destroy those poppy fields? With an army of armed star-sprankled banner harvester-treshers? With clouds of poison herbicides? Or with bombs? I don't think the US will get more support of the farmers and the rest of the world with this tactic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Oh, and another thing. How should they destroy those poppy fields? With an army of armed star-sprankled banner harvester-treshers? With clouds of poison herbicides? Or with bombs? I don't think the US will get more support of the farmers and the rest of the world with this tactic!
    come on Mzungu,
    US claim to catch bin ladin, thousands of taliban terrorists and iraquis nuclear weapons, they catch saddam in very short period of time in village clothes. they made iraq a war field. thousands are dead and homeless. no country could say anything. do you think US care about what other countries believe? do you think they can catch the terrorist but cannot find the fields? US army spends billions of dollars for equipments. they can even produce star-sprankled banner harvester-treshers.

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    Of course they will find the fields and could destroy them if they wanted to. As I already said, the US doesn't regard it as that important, is busy with other issues, plus takes it as a collateral damage.
    Otherwise it could declare war on Colombia and Morocco, too, and destroy their cocaine and cannabis fields. But is it of importance for the US?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Of course they will find the fields and could destroy them if they wanted to. As I already said, the US doesn't regard it as that important, is busy with other issues, plus takes it as a collateral damage.
    Otherwise it could declare war on Colombia and Morocco, too, and destroy their cocaine and cannabis fields. But is it of importance for the US?
    US do not care about the source of %93 of the global heroin market (but care about democracy only(!)) and you still support them and believe they work for global peace and democracy?

    come on mzungu, these narcos are sold at the corner of your streets. and kills your people. 1 millon people is dying each year because of drugs. and this market finances any kind of illegal formation including what US supposed to fight against.

    here is the percentage of global narcotic taken up by the police of the countries
    1)Iran - %23 (this devil- i hate iran also- caught %23 of the total catch by themselves)
    2)Turkey %16
    3) US %9 (come on superpower you are sitting on the source)
    4)China %8

    Europe (total) %10

    source: (UNODC)

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    Barbarian, if I understand your point correctly, you would say that the opium trade has terrible results for countries in which most of it is distributed. In that case, I would agree with you strongly.
    I don’t think that the developed world is ready to admit that strong measures will need to be taken with production, distribution, and use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    US do not care about the source of %93 of the global heroin market (but care about democracy only(!)) and you still support them and believe they work for global peace and democracy?

    come on mzungu, these narcos are sold at the corner of your streets. and kills your people. 1 millon people is dying each year because of drugs. and this market finances any kind of illegal formation including what US supposed to fight against.

    here is the percentage of global narcotic taken up by the police of the countries
    1)Iran - %23 (this devil- i hate iran also- caught %23 of the total catch by themselves)
    2)Turkey %16
    3) US %9 (come on superpower you are sitting on the source)
    4)China %8

    Europe (total) %10

    source: (UNODC)
    I guess now we come to the point to debate about what moral aspects a superpower is in duty of. This is something which differs widely from culture to culture and produces a lot of misunderstandings and resentiments among the people in the world. For instance, if China was the absolute ruler of the world, it would rule it differently than Russia would, or the US, or even the EU [because you've mentioned the last one so often].
    To some degree US politics and economy, despite of high immigration from catholic and non-western countries, are still based on old protestant doctrines, in which the freedom of a subject has to be guaranteed, but the range of what the individual does with this freedom, good or bad and perhaps even to it's own disadvantage, is left to it's own responsibility.
    Many other cultures in this world, and especially non-western countries, would regard this kind of ruler as a sadist/cruel or cowardly ruler! And would prefer a benevolent, philanthropist but strict and mercyless autocrat instead, like it is often practiced in their own countries. This specially gives the feeling that someone loves and cares for you, even if it's combined with some law and order mentality.
    Of course both ways of ruling are ideals which are hard to be reached in practice. But the aims are sometimes obvious and can be felt. This cultural misunderstanding is also the reason why I don't give much hope on success of the US in the Middle East, and btw, I never said that I supported US actions there!

    Just to explain you why the US and it's allies try put the defence of democracy above the fight against drugs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Here is what I personally think about it, without direct proof now [so I am willing to change my view]:

    1. The US supports Afghan drug farmers. But not for financial reason, but to keep them on their side and prevent them from changing to the Taliban side. As already stated by LeBrok, the US is also too busy fighting than it could invest it's time in destroying poppy fields.

    2. The US came to Afghanistan for economic reasons mainly. The war against terrorism was more of an excuse with 9/11 as a lucky incident for the US [and NO, 9/11 was NOT created by the CIA but a REAL terrorist attack!]

    3. Initiator was the oil lobby, by which Bush and Cheney acted as a part of it, not as politicians in the interest of the US. If they had expected before that Iraq and Afghanistan war will be a loss for the US-economy, what I think it really is, and in how far they personally benefited from it, only speculation and not known.

    4. If the wars have made the world a safer place now? In reference to the war in Iraq definately not! With the war in Afghanistan, probably a little, as it has prevented a spread of similiar Islamic regimes to it's neighbouring countries.
    Addition to Point 1..

    Drugs are a nice way to get money.
    Don't forget that opium is needed for a modern army to produce morphine.

    Drugs are necessary to keep up the soldiers moral.
    You don't want all the wounded soldiers scream and feed fear to the rest of the platoon, do you?


    Addition to point 2..

    Nothing is investigated properly in the 911 attack.
    Don't jump to conclusions.
    It may have been an inside job.
    We simply don't know.
    Terrorist attack is very questionable!!!

    Addition to point 4.

    Yes.. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan even had a huge offspring of violence. Bush created the terrorists, by simply stating they were there.
    Lots of young poor Muslims took the bait.

    Afghanistan was a peaceful nation in the 1970's, where Islam officials had little influence.
    The country had a friendly relation with the USSR.
    Study was free, human rights were guaranteed.

    Then came the American idea to support some fundamentalist groups to oppose the pro Russian government.. And after a while all hell broke loose.

    Soviet army rushed in to help the Afghanistan government, but was opposed by a fundamentalist opposition, supported by the USA.

    Don't tell me, who are the real devils of this era!! I already know!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Bogdan, show us the money, show us the numbers proving that US benefited from Iraq, Afghanistan and even in WW2 financially. Without the numbers how do you know that US benefits or benefited in above stated situations?
    hmm well now thats not so easy.. youd have to look at all the corporations that manufacture weapons and look at their profits... but im not sure whether they even reveal these to the public...

    As for WWII well in 1939 you had various trade agreements and pacts being signed... then look before WWII the US was ina terrible depression after WWII the US had the best economics of this century.... i wonder what caused this drastic change in jsut 5 years hmmm.... maybe the world war

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    Hi Bogdan, actually military production and government military spending is not a secret. Well, at least in all democratic countries.

    Here is the USA military spending link. It’s not difficult to find official US government documents online. You just need to look for them.

    http://comptroller.defense.gov/defbudget/fy2008/fy2008_summary_tables_whole.pdf

    Also it’s not a secret who produces weapons. Here are the links.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15_Eagle

    Here is the Annual report from Boeing. I’m sure you can find what weapons they produce and how much Boeing is making.

    http://www.envisionreports.com/ba/2010/27525ja10e/index.html

    You can also find people, and their pictures, who run Boeing, how much they make and how many shares they own. It’s all in the open, and financials of public companies are audited by independent accounting firms and government.

    The raise of US after the war was more a matter of half developed world and Japane being devastated and lost a lot of GDP. US GDP grew during the war but mostly by military products. In 1944 and 1945 US spent 5 trillion dollars each year, in today’s money, only for war efforts. This most of it was destroyed during fighting or rusted equipment in fields after the war.

    Ok, have to run now, New Year partyyyyyyyyy!!!!
    Later

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    Any country who doesnt want to be US’s mistress clearly needs democracy lessons from america, e.g. Iran, Syria, Iraq.
    Well add Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen to the list. People are so fed up with regimes that they are demanding democracy by themselves, not waiting for US to bring it there.

    I've heard last week on a radio program that Iran is investing in and pumping Iraqi's oil.
    A huge surprise even for me!!! I googled it and it seams to be a true story, on top of it there are other oil related investments of Iran in Iraq.
    http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2010/10/29/iranian-company-to-build-oil-refinery-in-babil/

    How is this possible, Barbarian, if US is controlling Iraq and it's oil, it allows an arch enemy Iran to "steal" it too???!!!
    Can you explain it in context of US/CIA controlling the world, especially the Iraqis oil. The war was about oil right?
    The only logical explanation is that US and Iran rule the world together. hmmm Imagine that.

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