Hunter-gatherers more violent than farmers

Mzungu mchagga said:
So, what is your solution? Shall we go back to hunting and gathering now? As trading, industries and also farming will ultimatley lead to war, capitalism and this furthermore to fascism. We have no other choice!
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Well, I guess you already know the answer.

Hunter/Gatherers versus Farmers.
Communism versus Capitalism.
Greed versus Altruism.

It would be a good idea to begin with fair trade.
That was the basic idea of the EU anyway.
Fair trade makes a war ridiculous.

But where are we now in 2010?
The same products are sold in the EU for very different prices.
How strange!?

So I come to the conclusion we have to deal with monopolism and capitalism.
As in the old days, some assholes are stocking up stuff to speculate with it.

The reason for wars in the end.

A really free economy would kill capitalism anyway.

I guess Buddha was right, greed causes all pain in this world.

I was called a Gandhi, and I take that very positive.
Thank you. (y)
 
You don't grasp even basic ideas how things work. I wouldn't even know where to start explaining things to you. Your strong avoidance to discuss pints that we raised here doesn’t help that either. You're lacking basic, and I repeat BASIC understanding of economy or human nature. On other hand you have unbelievable ability of taking anything and twisting it to fit your hypothesis to your liking.
You even twist my words too, or was it an example how illogical your understanding is? I never said you're a Gandhi. I said "be a Gandhi", and that meant that you are a hypocrite right now. To explain it better lets put it this way. We know you hate corporations/businesses, therefore to be like Gandhi you need to free yourself from their “evil” influence. Remove from your life everything that is made by companies. Don't use cloths, furniture, cars, buses, houses/buildings, electricity, gas, petrol, phones, computers and other electronics, etc. Don't use Internet, as it was started by US government and expended by corporations making hardware and software for it. At the end you wouldn’t be able to buy even a metal axe, because mining ore and forging iron is done by companies too. All left for you, in order to become Gandhi, is to go and live like a hunter-gatherer in the cave. Maybe you could start a little cultivation with a wooden hoe curved with help of flint stone. Well, you can always join some hunter’s tribes, there are still some left on this planet.
I hope it explains what you have to do to be a Gandhi and live the way you preach here. Also it should give you a start in understanding how much you have to thank the corporations/businesses for. I’m sure they are not twisting your arms and torturing you, and forcing you to use their products, do they?
 
The US is indeed a military dictatorship they have been since the 1950s. You need to differentiate between wars you have wars for profit and wars for other. For example WWII was not profitable for Britain as Britain was getting razed to the ground. WWII was profitale for amerika because amerika was never bombed and the war was not fought on american soil. The Americans benefitted from it. Same thing with iraq, afghanistan etc... the military makes huge money you need companies who build the missles, airplanes etc... that costs a shit load of money and produces a bunch of money in turn for the huge corporations who build this stuff. The profitable or perfect war is "never" ending or very drawn out, it has acceptable casualities and it is also fought away from home and victory or lose does not matter.

The War on Terrorism is indeed never ending as you will always have terrorists bush said this himself. Welcome to 1984 basically

As for prior to the 50's amerika wasnt bad at all they where isolationists and never bothered others or europeans britain on the other hand has been sticking its nose where it shouldnt for centuries. just after the 50's amerika sadly inherited that role
 
Bogdan, show us the money, show us the numbers proving that US benefited from Iraq, Afghanistan and even in WW2 financially. Without the numbers how do you know that US benefits or benefited in above stated situations?
 
mr. lebrok,

i also have a question for you.

here is the list of money US spent for military expenditure since 2000

2000 ---288.8 billon
2005---420.7
2006---441.6
2009---663.255
(300 bln for iraq and afghanistan is not included)

663 bln dollar is very close to the total expenditure of the rest of the world. and 6 times more than china which is second in total expenditure.

this money is %4.3 of their income (china %2, GB %2.5, russia 3.5)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e28cfcc56891df08bf32a556eb9d6d90.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

do you really think this much effort is just for global peace and democracy? especially if there is already 1.5 mln homeless in US.
 
this is the main drug route (reminds me R1 route)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1K736oupbCc/SEEu10c9eII/AAAAAAAAAWc/UdMuokepr9E/s400/hbsfj.bmp

south iraq plays an important role on this route. and the main income of PKK (kurdish gerillas) is narcotic straffic.

%80 of global annual drug production is in afghanistan.

edit: afghanistan is responsible for 90% of the global heroin output
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19715
some will say. us is there to stop this activity. but:
".....opium production in the country has grown more than 40 times over since 2001."
narchotic industry is about 1.5 trillion dollar a year (2005) and the third biggest industry after oil and weapon.
 
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Thanks for the numbers barbarian, now we can calculate something. Couldn't find anything on net quickly, like value of each industry, I'll come back at you later when time allows. Off top of my head I would say that the construction, food industry, the banking and global finance, even automobile industry should easily beat your drugs and weapons numbers.
Later, ....sorry don't have much time now.

Can you tell us how US government controls and benefits from heroin production in Afghanistan. How it could be organized to hidden it from journalists and population in general on big scale? How much could the heroin be worth for US acting as a middle man?
 
LeBrok said:
Thanks for the numbers barbarian, now we can calculate something. Couldn't find anything on net quickly, like value of each industry, I'll come back at you later when time allows. Off top of my head I would say that the construction, food industry, the banking and global finance, even automobile industry should easily beat your drugs and weapons numbers.
Later, ....sorry don't have much time now.

Can you tell us how US government controls and benefits from heroin production in Afghanistan. How it could be organized to hidden it from journalists and population in general on big scale? How much could the heroin be worth for US acting as a middle man?
Click to expand...

you must also evaluate that it is just an agriculture. it is a black market without tax. you dont need to put big moneys in it. all you need is some unstable areas on your route (see; afghanistan, iran (kurdish parts), turkey (kurdish part), ex-USSR's, somali. you can increase your profit by selling some weapons, and stealing their oil also.

it is all for democracy. :)
 
Do you have at least a shred of information that Iraqui's oil is getting stolen, or is it just only your suspicion because it fits your hypothesis?
 
There are different ways of stealing. Here are small informations about middle east:

Total military expenditure of saudi arabia, kuwait and UAE is %28 of total annual global expenditure. And % 67 of this Money goes to US.

Approximately, 1-1,5 trillion of total petrodollars of middle east are in US.

During İran-Iraq war US supported Iraq because of Irans well-known ideological dreams. However, a kind of wikileaks showed that (in 1986) US was selling weapons to Iran also (see iran-gate, in Reagan era).

Any country who doesnt want to be US’s mistress clearly needs democracy lessons from america, e.g. Iran, Syria, Iraq.
 
So the UAE is selling oil for weapons, in Canada we sell wood and wheat for weapons to USA. In both ways they are normal trading transactions in which both parties benefit. What else UAE can sell to by arms? What else do they produce, sand? They sell oil to by everything, therefore this is not coincidence that they sell oil to by weapons, right?
Now we still far away from your picture of US stealing Iraq's oil. This is a very serious accusation dude, I hope you have something to show for it.
 
LeBrok said:
So the UAE is selling oil for weapons, in Canada we sell wood and wheat for weapons to USA. In both ways they are normal trading transactions in which both parties benefit. What else UAE can sell to by arms? What else do they produce, sand? They sell oil to by everything, therefore this is not coincidence that they sell oil to by weapons, right?
Now we still far away from your picture of US stealing Iraq's oil. This is a very serious accusation dude, I hope you have something to show for it.
Click to expand...

i already try to show too much about what is happening lebrok. i wait something from you other than "hmm"
 
barbarian said:
663 bln dollar is very close to the total expenditure of the rest of the world. and 6 times more than china which is second in total expenditure.

afghanistan is responsible for 90% of the global heroin output

opium production in the country has grown more than 40 times over since 2001

During İran-Iraq war US supported Iraq because of Irans well-known ideological dreams. However, a kind of wikileaks showed that (in 1986) US was selling weapons to Iran also (see iran-gate, in Reagan era
Click to expand...
i already try to show too much about what is going on lebrok. i wait something from you other than "hmm"
 
Lebrok's question was how you can show that the US benefits from the war in, for example, Afghanistan. Your answer is that Afghanistan sells 90% of the global heroin output and it's production is growing ever since. What kind of answer is that?

So the US gets cheaper heroin now which it can sell to it's people? Is it unfairly refined in the US then? Do they sell it with usury to local dealers or does the government hand it out to the addicts directly? Do they pay money for it or do they trade weapons for heroin? Is the US trying to maintain a war through local tribesmen in Afghanistan so that the heroin trade keeps flourishing on US streets? I don't get it!
 
Sorry Barbarian, I'm just running a bit short of free time these days. I'll come back at you later in few days when I done my research.

I was responding to you regarding more information. Things that you say are new to me, we don't know them from mass-media or even from talking to friends. Therefore as Mzungu pointed out you have to argument your hypothesis a bit better. We need logical continuity of your proof. Like A comes from B, B from C etc, something like this. Or B is cost of war, C is the revenue from war, C > B = D profit. Then I'll believe you.
Also if heroin from Afghanistan is US revenue of war, then you really have to prove that it exist. Hundred billion dollar of heroin shipment requires huge manpower to move it around the world. Don't you think we wouldn't know that by now? Too many people involved, plus journalists would be all over the hottest story of the century. Right? But somehow only people in Turkey know that, hmmm.
 
LeBrok said:
Sorry Barbarian, I'm just running a bit short of free time these days. I'll come back at you later in few days when I done my research.

I was responding to you regarding more information. Things that you say are new to me, we don't know them from mass-media or even from talking to friends. Therefore as Mzungu pointed out you have to argument your hypothesis a bit better. We need logical continuity of your proof. Like A comes from B, B from C etc, something like this. Or B is cost of war, C is the revenue from war, C > B = D profit. Then I'll believe you.
Also if heroin from Afghanistan is US revenue of war, then you really have to prove that it exist. Hundred billion dollar of heroin shipment requires huge manpower to move it around the world. Don't you think we wouldn't know that by now? Too many people involved, plus journalists would be all over the hottest story of the century. Right? But somehow only people in Turkey know that, hmmm.
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this is an illegal job, you cannot see your A,B C here. i wrote what i see. i dont represent my country. please dont involve my nationality. it is something personal.

Mzungu mchagga what do you understand from this sentence:
"opium production in Afghanistan has grown more than 40 times over since 2001"
i understand that either US, the superpower, cannot control this area or some people had some free space to produce their products in there.
 
@barbarian & LeBrok

No, barbarian is right about his facts, I don't want to deny them. There have been quite a lot discussions on European media about the massive opium production in Afghanistan. The problem about this issue here is that barbarian is drawing wrong conclusions. Yes, the US and it's allies are not able to control the vast mountain ranges with the hostile tribes in Afghanistan, so opium farmers and traders have a good advantage there.
The basic question was, is the opium trade intended by the US and if yes in how far does it benefit from it? That is what barbarian wants to imply.
 
Same here. I don't deny opium production in Afghanistan, or big military industry in US having lobbies and effecting politicians on many levels. I just want better argumentation from Barbarian to prove his points about US benefiting financially in Iraq and Afghanistan.

@ Barbarina, sorry I had an impression that your opinion is common in Turkey.
 
LeBrok said:
Same here. I don't deny opium production in Afghanistan, or big military industry in US having lobbies and effecting politicians on many levels. I just want better argumentation from Barbarian to prove his points about US benefiting financially in Iraq and Afghanistan.

@ Barbarina, sorry I had an impression that your opinion is common in Turkey.
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i wonder what would you think if, for example, %90 of the global heroin production would be in the territory which is under the control of turkey.

it is a mass production and comes from fields, it is very easy to catch it. i can even see my car parking in front of house from google earth. and US cannot find and destroy these fields(?).

http://blog.thegooddrugsguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/opium-poppies-afghanistan.jpg

ok at least read these, you can find a lot more article like these in the net.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2008/11/24/cia-heroin-still-rule-day-in-afghanistan.html

http://lukery.blogspot.com/2009/08/us-military-planes-carrying.html
 
Well if US and Nato was in control of Afghanistan there wouldn't be much fighting and dieing, right? And Taliban would be conquered and history.
The truth is that Taliban have greater support among the population than Western Countries, especially among peasants. Taliban became a power and ruler of Afghanistan, because of their agricultural "reform". Taliban took land from landlords and divided it between all villagers. The rest was done by terror and executions.
Now we have poor peasants growing poppy and benefiting directly. Life is good for villagers. Now Nato comes chases away Taliban and starts destroying the poppy fields.....WOW, if there was any support for West among villagers, then it was fast gone. That was the reason Taliban is back and have friends among peasants. It is hard to defeat enemy like this without the support of locals.
I'm sure that's the reason that Nato stopped destroying the poppy fields to rebuilt local support. Besides they are too busy looking for Taliban and road side bombs these days. On top of it you have corrupted Afghan government that most likely is in control of opium trade. West have to tiptoe around Karzai, as he is the leader of newly build and fragile "friend" in this region.

Now, are there some coffins coming with opium in them from Afghanistan? Probably yes. We know there were some coffins coming to US with narcotics during Vietnam War. But these were small enterprises run be some soldiers and officers illegally. There was never US government and CIA operation on industrial scale to benefit financially from drugs. And there is none now in Afghanistan. If there was CIA smuggling narcotics in past it was for tactical and not financial gains. Possibly to help Taliban to defeat Soviets couple of decades ago.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

According to experts that wrote wiki page about Afghanistan opium trade, most of it goes through Iran, Turkey and Russia, the historic and traditional routs.
There is no agreement how much Afghan opium is worth. Some experts put it at 64 billion, some at 15 or even 3 billion. Mind that Afghan GDP is 12 billion dollars. I think 64 billion then is quite a stretch, but even at 3 or 15 billion it is quite precious for farmers, landlords and Afghan politicians. But still peanuts for US to bother with.
With steep competition from Iran, Turkey and Russia, US would probably only grab 5 billion of the market. Again it doesn’t make much of financial sense to spend 100 billion a year in Afghanistan war to “steal” their opium, even if it was 50 billion worth of it.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf

Here is an article to show you what goes with Iraq’s oil and who gets it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/12/world/middleeast/12iraq.html
Looks like government of Iraq controls and sells it and whole world gets it. Seams far away from the notion that US have the exclusive rights even to buy it, not mentioning the stealing.
 
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