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Thread: Do modern Europeans partly descend from Neanderthal ?

  1. #151
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    Well that went downhill fast.

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    Yes, Neanderthals did live all over Eurasia, but its likely the lighter skin ones lived in Central/Northern Europe, just like the majority of blue eyed light skin, blondes:
    Map of blondes:

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    Although Asians interbred with Neanderthals, they also interbred with 2 different groups of Denisovan, so its not surprising they don't look like Europeans who only interbred with Neanderthals.

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    The oldest remains found so far with light skin, hair and eyes was found in Motala Sweden and dated 7700 years:

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    So how did Neanderthal genes affect modern humans:

    They affect the behaviour of modern humans, whether you are a night person who likes to nap during the day. Addiction, depression, type 2 diabetes, Corns disease and many other diseases.

    They affect the immune system of modern Eurasians.

    THEY AFFECT THE SKIN COLOUR OF MODERN EUROPEANS and Asians.

    70% of Europeans possess the Neanderthal gene for skin colour. BNC2 which affects skin colour amongst other traits,
    is found in 70% of Europeans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neande..._modern_humans

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    Later Neanderthals resembled modern Europeans. A neanderthal was found in Italy that had the same chin shape as modern humans. He likely had a Neanderthal mother and a modern human father.

    There are many hybrid modern humans/Neanderthals that have been found which is why I believe Neanderthals were assimilated into the modern human population because of interbreeding.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid...ogy)#In_humans

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    Later Neanderthals resembled modern Europeans. A neanderthal was found in Italy that had the same chin shape as modern humans. He likely had a Neanderthal mother and a modern human father.

    No, that's wrong and outdated. You're referring to the Riparo Mezzena mandible which was described as a Neanderthal-modern human hybrid in a terrible paper by Silvana Condemi. They re-tested those remains years later and found that they weren't Neanderthal at all, in fact, the mandible was dated to the post-glacial period and had lower Neanderthal admixture than most modern Europeans. There has never been evidence of a modern human male interbreeding with a Neanderthal female.


    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep29144


    We also performed a more detailed investigation of the lithic assemblage of layer I. Surprisingly we found that the Riparo Mezzena mandible is not from a Neanderthal but belonged to an anatomically modern human. Furthermore, we found no evidence for the presence of Neanderthal remains among 11 of the 13 cranial and post-cranial fragments re-investigated in this study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    Yes, Neanderthals did live all over Eurasia, but its likely the lighter skin ones lived in Central/Northern Europe, just like the majority of blue eyed light skin, blondes:
    Map of blondes:

    There is no evidence of a Neanderthal ever having had blond hair or blue eyes, or even light (in the modern European sense) skin.

    European Neanderthals had relatively dark pigmentation.

    Blond hair evolved in eastern Siberia and spread to northern Europe by way of Ancient North Eurasian admixture; blond hair/blue eyes were also more common in Siberia and central Asia than in Europe until about 900 A.D.


    Those Motala HGs you posted would have been brown eyed, black haired and black skinned just like their glacial-period European ancestors were, before they got mixed with Ancient North Eurasians/Eastern Hunter Gatherers. Lighter phenotype populations existed much futher east before Motala.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    THEY AFFECT THE SKIN COLOUR OF MODERN EUROPEANS and Asians.

    70% of Europeans possess the Neanderthal gene for skin colour. BNC2 which affects skin colour amongst other traits,
    is found in 70% of Europeans.
    Light skin pigmentation in humans is associated with the genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. These genes came with us out of Africa, where they were present in low numbers. During the human populations stay in Siberia and Scandinavia during and just after the Ice Age they increased sharply in frequency in some populations in those areas, probably because they provided an adaptive advantage in those environments. Clustering is generally far faster as an adaptive mechanism than mutation.

    Basonuclin 2 is indeed from the Neanderthals and involved in skin pigmentation, but not in the sense of being causative for light pigmentation, but in the way of being involved in freckling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    I haven't seen any evidence at all that Neanderthal genes were mostly harmful and had to be "purged". For +50,000 years everyone in Europe and Asia was a Neanderthal hybrid with 10-75% Neanderthal DNA. By 45,000 YBP we have mostly modern-looking remains that are still autosomally 10% Neanderthal. Neanderthal ancestry in middle Siberia has decreased by perhaps half a percentage point since 18,000 YBP, if the remains in Afontova Gora are anything to go by. That could be due to European admixture. Neanderthal ancestry pretty much hasn't decreased in Asia in any significant way that indicates natural selection against Neanderthal alleles.
    This is quite remarkable given that Neanderthals never made up more than 4% of Earth's population at any given time. According to John Hawks the entire world's population of Neanderthals at any given time could have been seated comfortably at at an NFL superbowl stadium. The amount of Neanderthal ancestry in modern humans is actually higher than what one would expect; given the very shallow populatuon size of Neanderthals as compared with modern humans.
    Unadmixed modern humans (west-central Africans and western Negritos) have lagged behind immensely and suffered a kind of "purge" of their own, if you will, throughout recorded history. One wonders if you were given a choice to be born black at any given time in history, vs being born white or Asian with some Neanderthal ancestry, which would you choose? Clearly, Neanderthal ancestry was critical to the current standard of living and status that you enjoy.
    Purifying selection disproportionately affected Neanderthal alleles that modulated the tissues of the brain and the testes. This means that the Neanderthals were, by humans standards, likely rather primitive. It's our cognition and (especially male) sexual behaviour that most differentiate us from other animals.

    Brain regions and testes exhibited significant downregulation of Neanderthal alleles relative to other tissues, consistent with natural selection influencing the tissue-specific regulatory landscape. Our study demonstrates that Neanderthal- inherited sequences are not silent remnants of ancient interbreeding, but have measurable impacts on gene expression that contribute to variation in modern human phenotypes.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6219754/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    I haven't seen any evidence at all that Neanderthal genes were mostly harmful and had to be "purged". For +50,000 years everyone in Europe and Asia was a Neanderthal hybrid with 10-75% Neanderthal DNA. By 45,000 YBP we have mostly modern-looking remains that are still autosomally 10% Neanderthal. Neanderthal ancestry in middle Siberia has decreased by perhaps half a percentage point since 18,000 YBP, if the remains in Afontova Gora are anything to go by. That could be due to European admixture. Neanderthal ancestry pretty much hasn't decreased in Asia in any significant way that indicates natural selection against Neanderthal alleles.
    This is quite remarkable given that Neanderthals never made up more than 4% of Earth's population at any given time. According to John Hawks the entire world's population of Neanderthals at any given time could have been seated comfortably at at an NFL superbowl stadium. The amount of Neanderthal ancestry in modern humans is actually higher than what one would expect; given the very shallow populatuon size of Neanderthals as compared with modern humans.
    Unadmixed modern humans (west-central Africans and western Negritos) have lagged behind immensely and suffered a kind of "purge" of their own, if you will, throughout recorded history. One wonders if you were given a choice to be born black at any given time in history, vs being born white or Asian with some Neanderthal ancestry, which would you choose? Clearly, Neanderthal ancestry was critical to the current standard of living and status that you enjoy.
    Then you clearly haven't read any of the numerous scientific papers of the last years. Just as one example, nature purged huge portions of our X chromosome of their dna.

    Even of the dna that's left, not much of it is beneficial. You think it's just great that they left us a legacy of increased propensity to depression, addiction to tobacco, auto-immune disorders, to just mention a few? Please.

    I would provide a list of the papers, but clearly you want to persist in your ignorance, for whatever reason, so why bother.

    To all reading this thread: Ignore this poster. He is only interested in posting misleading information.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    I'm beginning to suspect that Punish Them 911 is a parody account.

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    ^^So am I, and he's going to be out of here pretty fast if he doesn't stop disrupting this thread.

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    He does post some reasonable stuff too. It may be that he is just excessively invested in making the facts fit his narrative of being part of a superior hybrid species.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Purifying selection disproportionately affected Neanderthal alleles that modulated the tissues of the brain and the testes

    We have no way of knowing that. The coverage of the Neanderthal genome is very limited so far and in the future we may discover that we DO have Neanderthal testes genes. Remember that not a single Levantine Neanderthal has been sequenced yet and even the genome we have is far from complete.


    Basically, your testes genes claim is based on WILDLY speculatory evidence. There's nothing conclusive.


    As for brain genes that's just patently false; we are very rich in cognitive genes from Neanderthals and new "discoveries" are made every year, overturning the speculations of the previous year:


    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ize-180971043/


    This means that the Neanderthals were, by humans standards, likely rather primitive.

    No it doesn't! This is infuriating. You are an idiot if you come to this conclusion based on flimsy and wild speculations about incomplete genomes. The fossil record already PROVES Neanderthals were less primitive. Even if their intelligence genes had been "purged" that would not make them primitive. There is evidence of rapidly decreasing IQ and increasing primitiveness in our own time.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    .
    Even of the dna that's left, not much of it is beneficial. You think it's just great that they left us a legacy of increased propensity to depression, addiction to tobacco, auto-immune disorders, to just mention a few? Please.
    You have clearly allowed yourself to be brainwashed by media reports about Neanderthal DNA. Nicotene consumption is a personal choice and depression is more dependent on one's environment (sedentary lifestyle, social media consumption, etc) than one's genes. There is no evidence for Neanderthal-admixed populations suffering depression prior to the late 20th century, except for possible individual examples among the leisured upper strata of societies, in earlier times.

    As for autoimmune disorders, I am sure they are few and far inbetween compared to the number that already existed in modern humans and which have mutated off of modern human alleles. Basically you're grasping for straws, looking for any little flaw you can find in Neanderthal DNA to justify your superstition that they were "primitive" or "bad", all while ignoring the positives (including positives of the very genes related to the things you mentioned) and the fact that non-Africans appear to have lived better lives than Africans for... Ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    You have clearly allowed yourself to be brainwashed by media reports about Neanderthal DNA. Nicotene consumption is a personal choice and depression is more dependent on one's environment (sedentary lifestyle, social media consumption, etc) than one's genes. There is no evidence for Neanderthal-admixed populations suffering depression prior to the late 20th century, except for possible individual examples among the leisured upper strata of societies, in earlier times.

    As for autoimmune disorders, I am sure they are few and far inbetween compared to the number that already existed in modern humans and which have mutated off of modern human alleles. Basically you're grasping for straws, looking for any little flaw you can find in Neanderthal DNA to justify your superstition that they were "primitive" or "bad", all while ignoring the positives (including positives of the very genes related to the things you mentioned) and the fact that non-Africans appear to have lived better lives than Africans for... Ever.
    Everything I said is supported by scientific evidence presented in numerous recent papers. I don't read MEDIA reports. I read papers. I recommend it.

    Your opinions, on the other hand, are contradicted by science.

    I don't debate people who refuse to read the relevant scientific papers but instead operate out of some emotional agenda.

    Stop spamming thread after thread with provocative, clearly a-scientific comments. You are annoying and insulting valued members.

    Am I clear?

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    Out of date, out of date thats all I ever get on this site, although this person puts up a link that is dated 2012. I use genuine scientific links
    and so Im rapidly coming to the conclusion that some people on this site, refuse to accept reality:

    From Mr Maciamo Hay founder of Eupedia:
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/neand...nd_myths.shtml

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